20:01:42 #startmeeting 20:01:42 Meeting started Tue Mar 22 20:01:42 2011 UTC. The chair is darst. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:01:42 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:01:45 #chair moray 20:01:45 Current chairs: darst moray 20:03:31 oh, this channel is logged as well? nice! 20:05:17 are all the lurkers really supposed to introduce themselves in the other channel, or just bid people? 20:05:28 no they should not 20:05:36 well, as watching 20:05:45 watching people don't need to make noise 20:05:57 Moray asked for introductions :) 20:05:59 * rmayorga shuts 20:06:01 If we don't start being strict, we will overrun h01ger's 2:22 max time 20:06:16 gwolf: this is in the time 20:06:21 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Meetings#Bid_decision_meeting.2C_22_March_2011.2C_20: 20:06:33 some people will be late, that's why there's a longer introductions period rather than 1 minute 20:06:46 this is lovely, except for the seasick 20:06:59 :) 20:07:17 they'll get used to it 20:07:51 h01ger: seasick? 20:08:02 20:59 here 20:08:29 moray: 20:59 * blarson_ getting seasick from all the waves 20:12:09 do people actually want the wiki page pasted in slowly? 20:12:19 I don't really see the benefit 20:12:29 * gregoa is fine with reading the wiki directly 20:12:30 please Managua people: "Brazil hosted DebConf4" as a strong point at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/PriorityList 20:12:31 FWIW, I think I should be de-voiced in -team - I am just a supporter this time 'round :) 20:12:34 if you want we can paste all the wiki page into irc 20:12:57 * darst fine with wiki, can just ask questions if needed 20:13:01 I don't think it's useful. 20:13:04 I don't think there is much point in copying over from the wiki - rather just pointing at questions 20:13:08 Yes, better to ask questions to clarify 20:13:19 tiago: I agree with you, that is a fact, but not a strong or weak point IMO 20:15:01 it's good to list some there 20:15:29 because it'll be probably asked 20:15:35 * karora wakes up to the fact there's a discussion channel :-) 20:16:01 h01ger: did you actually +m the channel yet? 20:16:01 * h01ger hands karora a nice cup of coffee :) 20:16:14 moray, no. 20:16:15 moray: channel's not +m 20:16:18 h01ger: probably worth doing to stop people accidentally talking in the wrong one 20:16:25 So, we should discuss here? 20:16:29 (which is easy if you're switching back and forth) 20:16:32 I have a couple of questions. 20:16:35 marga: go ahead 20:16:54 jcristau, what is it then? 20:17:20 marcot_br: rafael_br : approximately how far is SESC from Downtown? How long would it take to get there? How much if going by taxi? 20:17:29 h01ger: eh? right now #dc-team is +ns afaict.. 20:17:40 Is it sensible to have a DC desk in every hotel? I wonder if it would be better to just concentrate on having one desk if the distances are small. 20:17:50 darst, (or team managua) did you calculate the costs for .ni yet? 20:18:10 marga: SESC is 17km from downtown. By taxi, this will make about $15 I guess. 20:18:22 I mailed it to -team 20:18:29 karora: That's another option 20:18:32 haven't seen it an the archive yet 20:18:37 jcristau, but +ns is not what we want or is it? 20:18:39 marcot_br: USD ? 20:18:50 h01ger: no, you want +m 20:18:57 marga: yes. 20:19:02 jcristau, merci 20:19:07 marcot_br: ok. 20:19:31 We are considering the possibility of having kombis from SESC to downtown, since the major is probably going to allow us to use some kombis. 20:19:32 * gwolf adds a question for _br, also regarding distance. I see the distance from Sao Paulo is 500Km - That should be ~6-7hr by bus, if I guess right. Quite cheaper than plane, also. Is it an option? (or is it too messy to go in Sao Paulo from the airport to the bus station?) I gues it would be cheaper... And for those of us who enjoy the trip, can be a good way to get a glimpse of .br 20:19:38 gwolf, ah, just figured it's supposed to be positive to managua 20:19:40 sorry 20:19:54 fcestrada_ni: leogg_ni: I'm a bit lost with the extra hotels. What's the proposed plan for hosting ~ 300 people in those hotels? 20:20:11 gwolf, because never happened there before 20:20:30 tiago: yes... it is a weak point in favor, in any case :) 20:20:31 gwolf: I don't see a problem with taking the bus from São Paulo to Belo Horizonte, but I think it will take more than that 20:20:32 marga: we will have two main hotels, and the others as an option if needed 20:20:36 ehe 20:20:40 marcot_br: How long would the taxi to/from downtown take, outside of rush hours? 20:20:46 leogg_ni: the first 2 are the main ones? 20:20:47 gwolf: I have went from the international airport in São Paulo to the bus station, and it wasn't complicated. I believe it's a good option to go by bus, specially at night, when there are a lot of lines and, well, the trip seems "faster" 20:20:54 there's usually heavy traffic on the roads 20:21:00 karora: Outside rush hourse about 25 minutes. 20:21:27 marga: the two main hotel are Mansion Teodolinda Hotel and El Conquistador 20:21:52 Is it possible to post questions and answers with moderator's help in #debconf-team and discuss here without moderator? 20:21:58 can we use hacklabs in secs for 24/7? or is it to big? 20:22:04 too 20:22:11 (should actual decision team - bid team questions and answers be on the main channel?) 20:22:32 n0rman_ni: how far are those hotels from the conference place? 20:22:33 darst: I was expecting more of that type of question during the priority list run-through stage 20:22:37 fcestrada_ni: We should ask/discuss here - The group of five DebConfers, two Brazilians and two Nicaraguans should be the only ones writing in -team 20:22:40 regarding it being cheaper by bus than by plane. It depends, if you look around enough and buy some time before the event, you may be able to get plane tickets as cheap as bus tickets 20:22:42 ok 20:22:49 leogg_ni: What are the distances from each of the two hotels to the venue, and from each other? 20:23:00 marga: The .ni proposal is quite close. The farthest was 500m IIRC 20:23:11 marga: the first 150 mts and the second 500 mts far from the venue 20:23:12 darst: while the other channel is currently silent, I think it's ok to just answer here (BICBW) 20:23:21 karora: 150 and less than 500m away from the venue 20:23:22 n0rman_ni: And from each other? 20:23:27 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/File:D12map.png 20:23:38 n0rman_ni, leogg_ni: Is that the last version? 20:23:47 gwolf: yes 20:23:47 gwolf: yes is the last one 20:24:24 so, both hotels and the convention center are within the 5-minute range 20:24:31 karora: each hotel is 200 mts or less away 20:24:40 gwolf: thats right 20:24:49 man, these questions remind me of debate club 20:24:52 Hotel 2 is the Hotel Euro? 20:25:04 karora: No, it's conquistador 20:25:12 Thanks. 20:25:52 if I understand correctly, the biggest difference is managua is hotels in downtown, while belo horizonte is at a resort a distance from the city itself ? 20:26:09 darst: I believe this is correct. 20:26:17 along with most of the advantages and disadvantages of each of those 20:26:21 What facilities are around the resort? 20:26:26 darst: yes. That's my understading: Managua==Edinburgh and BH==Oaxtepec 20:26:33 darst: Managua is downtown 20:26:33 Not on it, but in the streets around it. 20:26:38 roughly.. 20:26:52 karora: Well, it's not in the middle of nowhere, there is commerce and houses nearby. 20:26:55 bubulle: well, BH is a SESC - Porto Alegre was also SESC 20:27:06 In Oaxtepec there were lots of local restaurants and shops within a reasonably short walk. 20:27:29 bubulle: yeah... BH=Oaxtepec sounds a bit too much. 20:27:36 karora: But there are not a lot of restaurants. 20:27:43 the closest approximation I could find..:-) 20:27:50 Managua is a very different city from everything else I have seen... It is very hard to get the "I am downtown" feeling. But the bid _is_ quite in the middle of the city 20:27:58 marcot_br: rafael_br: can you give us a rough idea of what is nearby? 20:28:47 I'd say it's a residential neighborhood, with some low profile bars and some commerce during daytime. 20:28:49 vorlon, ah. SECS is the same type of organisation as that running the dc4 facility?! 20:29:07 s/type// 20:29:12 h01ger: yeah, I still have the SESC baseball cap :) 20:29:19 jeje 20:29:27 h01ger: only in PA it was not so far away from the city, I think. 20:29:32 It's not the most safe neighborhood in town, so I'd suggest people to prefer going to downtown if they want to hang out in the city. 20:29:41 re: the point on "having run DC4": I'd suggest ignoring that point. I understand the _ni team added that point as they feel it a bit fairer not to repeat country if other people are interested in doing that... But Brazil is _so_ huge that it amounts to saying, "we already had it in Mexico, we would repeat in Managua"... That's a NOOP :) 20:30:14 * bubulle is trying to locate the BH venue on a map 20:30:25 gwolf, you want to run debconf in .mx again? 20:30:28 just type "SESC Venda Nova" on google maps 20:30:39 h01ger: you should not be typing, take good care of that arm ;-) 20:30:44 You may want to check google street view to get a feeling of the neighborhood. 20:31:12 gwolf, … 20:31:20 marcot_br: I get two results: one north of BH, and one south of BH 20:31:31 north. 20:31:48 This south one is downtown.. 20:32:14 how long/expensive is it to go from SESC to downtown? 20:32:39 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=pt-BR&geocode=&q=SESC+Venda+Nova&aq=&sll=36.244273,-95.712891&sspn=31.839781,79.013672&ie=UTF8&hq=SESC+Venda+Nova&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=-19.795598,-43.976426&spn=0.008621,0.01929&z=16 20:33:14 gwolf: About $15 by taxi, taking 25 minutes without traffic. 20:33:15 fisl support is indeed nice 20:33:19 About 40 minutes with traffic. 20:33:25 I guess that little forest is SESC? I remember SESC in POA as _very_ impressive... 20:33:36 Yes, that little fores is SESC. 20:33:54 marcot_br: is the '$' local currency (not US)? 20:33:59 No, USD. 20:35:07 As I said before, there's a high chance that we are going to get kombis from the city hall, to help moving inside SESC, specially for handicapped people, and to take and bring people from downtown. 20:35:37 We have already talked with someone from the city hall about it and, despite we don't have nothing formalized yet, this is probably going to happen. 20:35:58 how would FISL support DebConf? I understand perfectly there was a close relationship in Porto Alegre, but... being in such a distant city? 20:36:07 this site makes estimates of taxi prices: http://precodotaxi.com/belo-horizonte/ It says R$40 during the days, which would be around $20 20:36:25 He means R$40,00 20:36:34 Which makes around USD$25 20:38:21 FWIW, as for the team... I'll state it once again here. I am _really_ impressed with the way the Central American communities work. The synergy I have seen for the several conferences and meetings I have been involved with in the last couple of years has strongly amazed me. So, even if logistically it just sounds like a large bunch of young and enthusiastic people... I have to stress out it is a very strong point in their favor. And the energy they ( 20:38:22 btw, i'm comparing data at http://whiteboard.debian.net/dc12bid_comparisons.wb 20:38:29 darst: mail arrived 20:39:01 gwolf: cut off at 'the energy they ..' 20:39:12 And the energy they (mostly leogg, n0rman and jimbodoors) have put into this proposal is just an example of it. 20:39:34 gwolf, please add it to wiki, your testemonial is very important here 20:39:51 as strong point section 20:40:00 * bubulle wonders: we're comparing "affordable for sponsors *and* attendees" right? 20:40:57 bubulle, yes, according to topic. but i wonder a bit what the diff is, or rather, i think its more for running conf (renting facilities) not so much beer+coffee prices 20:41:08 but a bit "cost of living" 20:41:17 not travel? 20:41:24 no 20:41:25 h01ger: it's all costs 20:41:31 Yes, yes, it's travel included 20:41:34 bubulle: both are very expensive for travel 20:41:43 bubulle: do you think there's a relevant difference? 20:41:44 but isnt travel 8. 20:41:47 ? 20:41:50 h01ger: that's logistics, not cost 20:41:55 both are expensive for travel, is one more expensive than the other? 20:42:02 h01ger: e.g. need to take a 8 hour ride by elephant across the mountains 20:42:11 (sorry if I should already know the answer to this question) 20:42:15 tiago: to which wiki do you suggest it? 20:42:16 I did my own research and found out Managua a little bit more expensive than BH, except when coming from Northern America 20:42:16 moray, want! 20:42:28 vorlon: from previous discussion, I didn't see a consistent difference 20:42:37 there was a list thread with plane ticket prices from various places 20:42:54 right 20:43:10 I roughly see lower costs for Managua balanced by lower travel costs for BH 20:43:12 * h01ger thinks .ni is a bit cheaper from north america, but from europe its less consistent 20:43:32 bubulle: there is a very strong difference - In visas. Nicaraguans require visas from very few countries. To travel to Brazil, many of us (at least, Mexico and USA) have to pay ~US$150 for the visa 20:43:36 bubulle: "Lower costs" - isn't the venue more expensive for Managua, and everything else comparable? 20:43:37 There are plane ticket prices in the wiki. 20:43:38 there is a comparison of prices we did, you can take a look http://dc12bid.debian.org.ni/DC12_travel.pdf 20:43:45 gwolf: that's definitely not 'costs' :) 20:43:45 bubulle: it's cheaper to travel to Managua 20:43:48 I don't remember the exact amount (Brazilians, do you know?) 20:43:55 BH is considerably cheaper for me, but I think I'm almost alone in that. 20:43:56 moray: well, it's an extra to the ticket cost 20:43:59 bubulle: plus we're very visa-friendly 20:44:04 marga: which page in the wiki, please? 20:44:14 gwolf, http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/PriorityList 20:44:24 also, nicaragua is a visa-friendly country, you can see this at http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/Visas 20:44:25 I beg to disagree on NI being cheaper, at least for FR, UK, DE 20:44:32 gwolf: but then you need to show that it is more than the random variation in plane fares, otherwise I think visas are the logistics point 20:44:35 vorlon: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua#Choice_of_city_.2F_town_.2F_whatever 20:44:53 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Brazil/BeloHorizonte#Choice_of_city_.2F_town_.2F_whatever 20:45:29 marga: right, thanks 20:46:35 actually, those pages do show a non-negligible advantage for Managua from most points of departure 20:47:45 Indeed. 20:48:04 vorlon: which pages? 20:48:05 BA->BH is cheaper for obvious reasons, as are Paris/Frankfurt/Rome because of TAP connections 20:48:13 vorlon: do you have a link to the right thread? 20:48:16 moray: the bid pages with the estimates of travel costs 20:48:18 But apparently we are not considering it in this point. It's 8. Travel logistics. 20:48:30 marga: if there's hard data on costs it's relevant, but not otherwise 20:49:01 moray: perhaps there's better info on the list, I was hoping the wiki pages were current so I didn't have to hunt&gather data points myself from the list archive :) 20:50:56 h01ger: define "core".. :) 20:51:05 About the moray's question, maybe Brazil is stronger but Nicaragua is not alone, Centroamérica supports Nicaragua ;) 20:51:13 gwolf, its a trick question ;) 20:51:51 * h01ger thanks leogg_ni + marcot_br 20:52:07 (actually I recognize varied nationalities for several of the _ni people ;-) ) 20:52:19 do people on here think one team is stronger? 20:52:20 s/Centroamérica/Central America 20:52:21 * bubulle is surprised of the low "support" showed by other members of the BR Debian community to BH bid 20:52:24 question from tassia (who had to disconnect): have you visited all the venues you're considering for the bid? 20:52:25 h01ger: :D 20:52:43 * h01ger nods bubulle 20:52:43 (at least visible support) 20:52:54 Nicaragua Team did a great job in SFD event 20:53:14 Ma_Po_ni: SFD is not DC :( 20:53:22 and the .ni variety + gwolf support i consider .ni a bit better here. but then .br is huuuge too.. 20:53:35 Nicaragua team also collaborate in the organization of MiniDebConf Panama 2010 20:53:39 but no NI people have been to DebConf, is that right? 20:53:46 DebConf is very different from other conferences 20:53:47 tiago: yes, we visited all of them 20:53:52 i first wondered why not more people from dc4 were in the .br bid, and then realized its 7 years ago.. 20:53:52 Ma_Po_ni: I agree with what they say - SFD is very simple. But, say, ECSL was IMPRESSIVE 20:53:58 leogg_ni but that show how big are the events we've organized 20:54:01 nicaragua not is alone and we have a lot of experience in other regional conferences 20:54:04 and it was quite closer to the level of logistics needed by DebConf, although on a local scale 20:54:12 moray: no, bnut we organize events like Central American Free Software Meeting 20:54:18 h01ger: Seven years and >1500Km... 20:54:35 anto: o/ !!! 20:54:42 bubulle, actually debian-br is not strong as a group 20:54:45 gwolf, yup 20:54:51 n0rman_ni, thanks 20:55:06 with my usual "feeling-like" judgement and mostly backed up by the higher number of member, I'd give Ni a small "advantage" here 20:55:15 team work -> http://softwarefreedomday.org/en/competition/winners-2008 20:56:28 completing marcot_br statement in d-team: Tassia and I will be helping DC12 whenever it takes place, 20:57:00 tiago: heh, I suspected as much :) 20:57:01 we will be living in canada during dc12, so we want to help as global team 20:57:01 * h01ger looks down the prio lists and thinks this will be a difficult decision... 20:57:08 not local 20:57:28 I think it's hard to predict local team in the future based on what who is interested now... 20:57:31 tiago: Agree - that's the reason I didn't append _ni to my name. I am in the team, wherever it happens :) 20:57:33 just during the conference, which we can help as local due our nationality 20:57:40 language etc 20:57:41 who does how much and what they focus on and all 20:57:50 regardless, they are both good and similar 20:57:55 darst: certainly lists of "these people will join" have always been wrong... 20:58:41 I think the quality of spaces is a clear tie :) 20:58:55 specially as they are both adjustable... and in places rented for similar conferences 20:59:07 indeed, I was hoping they'd immediately say 'no'... 20:59:16 bubulle: This feeling has an explanation. 21:00:23 bubulle: There was a flamewar in some mailling lists when the bid was starting, which splitted the brazilian team. 21:01:04 marcot_br: what was the disagreement? 21:01:04 maybe i read gigabit in the dc11 presentation/paper i read yesterday too 21:01:39 moray: s/\n//g ;-) 21:01:45 I think a group wanted Curitiba to bid and another group wanted BH 21:02:16 * bubulle is late but sees a tie for good working spaces too..:-) 21:02:23 moray: The main issue was about the process. Some people thought that the process was not being done transparently, and some people disagreed. 21:02:28 * bremner is jealous of moray's 20 Mbit adsl 21:02:44 marcot_br: I agree - I thought also the connectivity was going to be Managua's lowest point. But they got a very good contact and this promise of sponsorship 21:03:27 marga: I don't think we can expect them to have it sure by now, but a good probability of success. It will be sure when the (whichever) bid is settled and the contract signed. 21:04:02 _br / _ni can you estimate costs for an excelent network connection for DC12 considering the current venues? 21:04:03 * bubulle mumbles about "building the infrastructure ourselves"....this can kill DebCamp work, remember 21:04:04 gwolf: I know, it's just that for the decision meeting, it doesn't count 21:04:32 For the organizing itself, it's great if it's possible, but for the decision meeting what counts is what network is available, not if it's sponsored or not. 21:04:33 have you contact any ISP? 21:04:38 contacted 21:04:38 bubulle, yes, but relying on whats there can kill debconf work ;) 21:05:11 bubulle, good point 21:05:21 h01ger: DebConf work seems so fragile, yet it has always succeeded. We are reliable and professional! ;-) 21:06:17 My least liked phrase on debconf-team channel: "This won't be an issue" 21:06:23 tiago: We expect to have this sponsored by the ISP. 21:06:29 marga, *g* 21:06:53 marcot_br, which one? any previous contact? aranax_ni ? 21:06:57 dc4 had excellent food 21:06:59 marcot_br: from what I understand of the bid: the network infra would be the same for accomodation and conference venue+hacklabs, right? 21:07:06 despite being far from downtown 21:07:17 bubulle: Yes. 21:07:23 doh, I'm late again 21:07:32 h01ger: actually I remember going out some evenings for good food too 21:07:33 but yeah, .ni wins here i guess 21:07:42 h01ger: but it wasn't so expensive to get there I think 21:07:45 nor so slow 21:07:57 yeah. 40min is rather a lot 21:08:02 marga: I agree it's not a good phrase, but that's the best we have on this point now. 21:08:26 to give you an idea, residential 10Mbps upload here is USD$250,00 21:08:50 * bubulle nods for ni>br here, but that's a minor point for me, indeed..:-) 21:08:55 marcot_br: I know, I just prefer facts, as rafael just gave. 21:09:06 a month 21:09:18 rafael_br: the .ni people were explaining the huge difference between residential and commercial (i.e. fiber, symetrical) service in their country 21:09:41 ...and what has been sought is to get the symetrical fiber 20M link 21:10:41 * bubulle always very strongly preferred DC where acco is same than venue so you see where my preference goes, here. 21:10:55 I'm particulary worried about critical points which are in the "we expect to..." in both teams :( 21:11:17 h01ger: yes, we care about people who _need_ a five star room. We actually get some of them, and we want them to still hang out with our people 21:11:26 bubulle: yes, but we have a variety of hotels near the venue 21:11:50 gwolf, right. we _also_ care about them, as we care about a _lot_ of things 21:11:52 hi! are the rooms/venue enabled for handicap people? 21:11:53 tiago: I would not expect basically any points to be finalized by now. It is perfectly understandable to say "we expect to" if we don't have anything final 21:11:56 they said the residential service was terrible, right? Our service here is pretty good. However, we're not sure if we can get 20M symmetrical fiber to SESC, we left a few things behind since we took a while to finally find a good venue. 21:11:59 h01ger: right 21:12:02 (thats what i ment when i said "we dont care" ;) 21:12:15 but we have good connectivity here and I don't think that will be a problem at all. 21:12:36 zumbi: yes, the main venue is handicap-friendly 21:12:37 Nicaraguans: specially thinking about handicapped people, I guess they can stay in the work venue hotel, right? (which is just too expensive for the rest of us IIRC) 21:12:50 gwolf, but critical points IMO should have been better addressed for this meeting 21:12:51 n0rman_ni: I understand this and that balances the "venue different from acco" bit but, really, by experience, this is a weaknedd of NI (imho, of course) 21:12:58 gwolf: thats correct 21:13:09 gwolf, .oO( 5 star ghetto for handicapped people ) 21:13:12 h01ger: Well, I'd consider the 5★ hotel to be a... minor-but-existing point 21:13:26 * h01ger likes stars too btw 21:13:35 h01ger: I'd rather not have blind or motion-handicapped people crossing streets to get to work 21:13:36 for example, internet costs can substantially alter the final venue costs 21:13:39 * bubulle backs up marga 21:14:15 gwolf, totally. but then i prefer everybody being able to go "everywhere" at dc12 21:14:21 tiago: I don't expect 20Mbps (which is what both venues offer) to be very expensive nowadays, in the context of a >US$100K thing 21:14:30 h01ger: right 21:15:18 gwolf: I agree, either way, I don't think Internet price will be the decisive thing here 21:15:40 I know good quality network on demand here is *very* expensive, thousand dolars, no doubt about that 21:15:44 gwolf: it is stated on the paper posted from _ni team (around $2500 + $500 setup) 21:16:21 This is one is complicated 21:16:56 n0rman_ni: but this point is also valid in the crowne - We would book the work areas, but if a large group takes the rooms during our time, we will share the space. So, that point would be tied :) 21:17:15 What is better? A place with options for every taste, that you have to go through a city, or an enclosed place where there's only one possible offer? 21:17:21 "if a large group takes the rooms during our time"?!? 21:17:28 marga: depends on attendees' tastes 21:17:31 I think one of the strongest point for .ni is that we have plenty of options 21:17:41 * h01ger nods moray 21:17:54 marga: for me personally, the options, but I know others prefer the second 21:17:55 Our aim is for a great _conference_ 21:18:04 Not for a great holiday abroad 21:18:07 leogg_ni, which will also cause people to "get lost & never meet" 21:18:14 marga: well.. 21:18:16 yes, no objective all-best thing here... I like having everything together, still. 21:18:46 if i'm spending $1.5k on a plane trip, i might as well have a nice holiday. 21:18:55 marga: as you know, we generally try to make the attendees enjoy themselves too, or they wouldn't come 21:18:58 h01ger: not necessarily, but I get your point 21:18:59 * h01ger thinks both places are quite good at being close together but i see small win for .br 21:19:10 I think people don't even agree on what makes a nice holiday... 21:19:15 bremner: indeed 21:19:17 We have plenty of free time activities in SESC and in the surroundings of Belo Horizonte. 21:19:18 win 35 21:19:19 indeed 21:19:20 h01ger: why the small win? 21:19:27 bremner: some people much prefer going to enclosed hotels in the middle of nowwhere with nothing nearby 21:19:32 but a beach/pool 21:19:37 fcestrada_ni: because it is in an enclosed venue, everything together 21:19:39 h01ger: why win? 21:19:49 fcestrada_ni, because for a conf i think the island setting is slightly better than the big interesting city 21:19:51 gwolf: but you don't have choices? 21:19:54 moray: yes, I understand both points of view. 21:19:54 leogg_ni / fcestrada_ni: what gwolf said. 21:19:57 gwolf: not *so* enclosed, if things are 500 metres apart and there are 1000 people 21:20:06 It has been observed that DebConfers _do_ prefer having a single location for everything 21:20:17 I believe the .br advantage is that the venue stimulates people to get together, and to work together. 21:20:20 this is also what I always heard/read 21:20:22 the case of Nicaragua may be comparable to extremadura (DC9), easier to contact people who can sponsor, is at the center of the city, hotels are nearby, there is good connectivity, hacklabs are accessible 24 / 7 and air conditioned. I personally know Managua and the local team and I am sure they will do a good job, committed people and a very importan is a country visa friendly and cheaper than brazil 21:20:38 marcot_br just put it in words nicely 21:21:23 If you prefer single location over options it's a win for .br 21:21:59 humour an ignorant northerner. Is it hard for some people to get a visa to Brazil? 21:22:24 leogg_ni: the best of both worlds would be to have an enclosed location, in the middle of downtown, but that's not always easy to find. 21:22:37 marga: I agree 21:22:39 * nattie wanders in to watch discussion 21:22:50 bremner, you're from the us? then you have to do what they have to do to enter they us. 21:22:58 bremner: No, except maybe for americans. 21:23:29 I'm Canadian, but I was just curious about the repetition of the .NI visa friendly point, not worried personally 21:23:30 marcot_br: ...And we tend to have ~30% of US-americans in DebConf :) 21:23:38 But it wasn't hard to get a visa to US for DC12. 21:23:50 bremner, .ni seems to be very friendly very mostly 21:23:53 my brazilian visa expires next year 21:23:56 marga: right, Argentina had that but it's hard to find generally within budget 21:23:56 I believe it will be troublesome, but it's unlikely that they will deny the visa. 21:23:57 .br, please (and sorry if you did already): how about the distances between hacklabs/bedrooms/auditoriums at SESC? are the accessible? 21:24:00 gwolf: the visa process was only a minor obstacle for DC4, I think 21:24:02 I mean, the paths 21:24:22 Clint: your visa from DC4, or a more recent one? 21:24:23 tiago: 2 or 3 minutes in walking distance. 21:24:27 tiago: ah, you seem to remember another SESC? :-) 21:24:27 vorlon: i've never been to dc4 21:24:34 you should go some time, it's great 21:24:37 so i've heard 21:24:40 great 21:24:59 bubulle, i was just a kid in dc4 21:25:00 :) 21:25:20 tiago: sure, but SESC was DC6..:-) 21:25:30 no! 21:25:30 vorlon: I understand the visa is basically always granted, but it is an inconvenience - Not every city has a consulate, it is not exactly cheap, and.. well, a visa costs ~US$150 - But the costs can go up with travel and time invested 21:25:39 ahhh 21:25:41 doh 21:25:42 DC6 made me hate with passion everything related to visas 21:25:47 bubulle: s/6/4/ 21:26:04 gwolf: was that one post of yours deliberately 141 characters? 21:26:10 CCEN is? 21:26:11 gwolf: uh, oh yes 21:26:55 h01ger: Spanish Goverment Aid Agency 21:26:56 ah 21:27:10 leogg_ni: good cameras for videoteeam work? That is nice 21:27:11 centrol cultural de espana in nicaragua 21:27:20 h01ger: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua/Sponsors#Centro_Cultural_de_Espa.C3.B1a_en_Nicaragua_.28CCEN.29 21:27:20 nattie: /me despises twits ;-) 21:27:21 gwolf: yes! 21:27:22 gwolf: I agree with that. 21:27:23 nattie: o/ BTW 21:27:24 leogg_ni, cameras for free! I loved it :) 21:27:35 * nattie will not tell gwolf she is on twitter then 21:27:40 tiago: yes, it's pretty cool :D 21:27:43 * nattie also hugs gwolf nonetheless 21:27:44 leogg_ni: I think that's a good point worth emphazising (although h01ger is the one to judge it) 21:27:45 * h01ger hopes an even better plan for the cameras will work out by then, but anyway 21:27:53 (yay, thats good) 21:28:05 :D 21:28:11 gwolf: "not every city has a consulate" - er, I applied for my DC4 visa by mail, I assume the process remains the same 21:28:32 vorlon: it won't necessarily, due to their reciprocity 21:28:40 vorlon: oh, then feel free to ignore me. I am a bit nervous because if the president does not intervene, the closest consulate I have to go to for my Bosnian visa is in... Chicago :-P 21:29:08 gwolf: I'm sure those are close together on the map in the President's office 21:29:13 Chicago is lovely this time of year 21:29:19 a nice short drive 21:29:42 * gwolf grumbles in your general direction 21:29:43 skateboard distance 21:29:50 oh, look! That's Chicago on that same general direction 21:30:01 it's even in your timezone 21:30:10 Slight .ni win here IMO 21:32:00 * bubulle disagrees with gwolf, probably influenced by costs from western europe 21:32:04 * fcestrada_ni asociated mexicans 21:32:13 naked bicycle distance? 21:32:49 nattie: WNBR is in June, not July. But it would be verrrry nice to cycle all the way there with no clothes! :-} 21:33:01 moray, 17km from international airport 21:33:10 * h01ger wonders through what pipes nattie is filtering this discussion 21:33:37 tiago: from an airport there are useful flights to like POA? 21:33:47 h01ger: the usual, i suspect 21:33:54 It was 500Km from Sao Paulo (lineal), I asked at the beginning of the discussion 21:34:01 we have an international airpoirt in Belo Horizonte 21:34:09 could someone pose the question which of the two places can be reached without flying through the US 21:34:12 but that's the _main_ airport in the region 21:34:16 rafael_br: how far away from the venue? 21:34:17 moray, yes 21:34:18 rafael_br: not all 'international airprots' are equal 21:34:22 not necessarily saying that BH is small, of course! 21:35:02 (probably for Central America, most flights would have a layover in Panama, San Jose (CR) or San Salvador. But they are usually ridiculously short layovers (30min-1h) 21:35:05 rafael_br, with flights from/to which internation airports? 21:35:36 h01ger: (there are many international airports which don't actually have international flights ;) 21:35:51 right 21:36:05 moray, the best translation is 'major' airport in fact 21:36:08 There are flights here with no connections. But most will go through São Paulo or Rio, indeed 21:36:09 h01ger: many of the suggestions for .ni in the wiki imply going through Panamá or Costa Rica, so it's similar to going through GRU. 21:36:26 GRU is sao paulo? 21:36:27 nattie: both places can be reached without flying through the US 21:36:30 yes 21:36:44 h01ger: yes, sorry. 21:36:47 h01ger, yes 21:36:50 ah yes, it's GRU that's the relevant one, not Porto Alegre 21:36:56 h01ger, it's the 'major' airport in SP 21:37:02 GRU and Rio are where European flights go to 21:37:05 h01ger, which we say "internacional" 21:37:15 nattie: hmmm, after all, it seems fairly hard to avoid US for Europe->Managua 21:37:26 bubulle, mexico 21:37:47 from what i've seen 21:38:08 bubulle: nattie Not if you travel with Iberia or KLM 21:38:18 stop off in Mexico? sounds good -- what airline? 21:38:20 h01ger: yes, but it's a bit more expensive. I'd bet there are frequent flights to Panamá, it is a major airport 21:38:25 bubulle: nattie There are flights via Panama and San Jose 21:38:29 international flights in Brazil usually arrive at GRU, then the company does a connection to the final destination 21:38:32 moray: There are many direct flights to Mexico 21:38:33 h01ger: at least, I can't find anything doing CDG|ORY->MGA 21:38:41 from basically every West European capital 21:38:50 bubulle: it's in the wiki. You can do that by flying Iberia+Copa. It's can be the same or more expensive depending on the point of origin. 21:38:57 But I'd try through Panama (for .ni) 21:39:14 bubulle, via madrid or AMS i think (which sucks for those living close to CDG anyway) 21:39:28 gwolf: sure, I meant for the connectinng flight 21:39:43 * h01ger has to fly to a major hub anyway... 21:39:43 gwolf: changing airline groups on a connection is a bad idea unless you have days in betweeen 21:40:07 h01ger: sure, but these are twice the price than options through US. Anyway....we can spend ages on flight prices...:-[ 21:40:18 * h01ger nods and grrrs 21:40:27 bubulle: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Bids/Managua#Choice_of_city_.2F_town_.2F_whatever 21:40:37 bubulle: they are more expensive, but not twice the price. 21:40:38 moreover, /me is sick of always flying through that Madrid airport..:-) 21:40:52 I don't think I changed in Madrid yet 21:41:15 but London flights often seem much cheaper than Paris ones 21:41:35 moray: don't. They hide power sockets very well 21:41:50 * gwolf prefers flying through Madrid than through Paris... I have a share of bad experiences in CDG :-P 21:42:14 * h01ger notes http://dc12bid.debian.org.ni/CCENsupport.pdf has been signed yesterday :-) 21:42:17 gwolf: *transitting* through CDG is bad yes, same for Heathrow 21:42:18 leogg_ni, it's not that hard to manage accessibility even when you don't have a perfect structure, so it depends on the team dedication 21:42:35 tiago: yes, I agree 21:42:51 * h01ger repeats what moray said at the beginning: 21:42:53 As you all know, this meeting is intended to make a decision between the two bids. This is never easy, but we try to do this by consensus. 21:42:54 Everyone needs to look what will work better for DebConf in 2012, it's not about which country is better :) 21:42:54 tiago: +1 21:42:55 should we break the venues? 21:43:09 and someone also said: "If we had a clear winner, we wouldnt have this meeting"... 21:43:15 gwolf: no, not until after DC12 :) 21:43:20 I did it in my old city many times 21:44:04 *g* timezone offsets 21:44:17 I'd never have thought of such an apology :) 21:45:00 * bubulle hates timezones 21:45:53 * tiago absent for a coffee 21:45:54 who is in a noninteger timezone? 21:46:03 https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/03/msg00863.html 21:46:35 Possibly not relevant to the DebConf to be an event focused on development, but the Open Day would be of great help to link people across Central America to the Debian Project and believe this should be taken into account. 21:46:41 gwolf: India 21:46:49 dunno if anyone here is affected 21:46:50 .ve ? 21:46:52 vorlon: yes, but in this meeting? (Venezuela too) 21:47:00 just curious... 21:47:01 oh, is .ve non-integer? 21:47:11 fcestrada_ni: Isn't it the same for Brazil? 21:47:36 +0430 21:47:51 Yes, .ve 21:47:59 marcot_br: I don't think so (for distance) 21:48:08 do people still have specific questions to the bids? or do we just need to discuss what's already been found? 21:48:10 bubulle, i'm impressed you're cleaning this up and not someone from .au :-D 21:48:11 sorry, -0430 21:48:14 fcestrada_ni: what do you mean? 21:48:25 h01ger: gwolf: comments please ^^ 21:48:41 h01ger: well, I cleaned up Russia already and I battled with Brazil today..:-) 21:48:42 hmmm not really 21:48:48 (if it's just 'general discussion' we could always go back to the main channel ;) 21:48:59 bubulle, \o/ 21:49:16 moray: what I have been discussing in the #debian-ni is that... well, things are (thankfully|depressingly) balanced ;-) There is always something to ask, but... I see a frighteningly good equilibrium 21:49:19 you're saying that less people would go to Belo Horizonte open day because it's farther away? I'm not so sure it's true. At least not for those who are really interested. 21:49:21 ah, I found a plus for .ni: only one timezone 21:49:26 it's not like it's that far away 21:50:00 rafael_br: Well, the Central American communities do act as one big group. I met them at their first Central American Free Software Meeting in 2009, and there were tens of people from Panamá to Belize 21:50:01 bubulle: Belo Horizonte has only one timezone too. =) 21:50:01 rafael_br: No, i just saying that for the central america region is the first time, it's a little off-topic because DebConf is a development event but... 21:50:16 ...the open day would be great in this region for new contributors ;) 21:50:17 (no, we Mexicans are sadly not the least integrated with Central America... And that's a big shame :( ) 21:50:48 fcestrada_ni: I don't see a difference here, since for Minas Gerais is the first time too. 21:51:07 So... Further discussion but no discussion. 21:51:34 marga: we've been discussing for a long time already 21:51:45 heh 21:51:46 * bubulle collapses 21:52:00 right 21:52:23 So, anyone over here has a question that they think should be asked before coming to a decision? 21:52:42 Brazil is a very large country. It has been done in the south of Brazil, but this time it will be in a much more central region. It certainly has a lot of potential to bring people together. 21:53:12 marga, i have 21:53:34 how hollidays can affect DC12 21:53:35 people chatting here should glance at the other channel now, it's open for talking :) 21:53:43 tiago: as in dates? 21:53:47 yes 21:53:56 FWIW, the .ni team asked me to say how important it would be for the Central American communities. And yes, rafael_br raises the point also for .br. However, the old-time debconfers will remember we have dsicussed the point. DebConf is for the benefit of Debian - And although we want to benefit the hosting communities, that's not a key point for a decision 21:54:01 we have to think on what's best for Debian 21:54:06 rafael_br: Forget my comment, I just mention that for Central america as a region (because South america had previous DebConfs in the past), and that's the oportunity for Debian to approach to this region, anyway based on the purpose of the DebConf is a little off-topic 21:54:22 and repeating (or not) a country, and improving (or not) a local community... are nice side-effects, but not decision points. 21:54:24 scholar hollidays, 21:54:35 if dates meet other country dates 21:55:05 gwolf, i consider it a point too. kickstarting/supporting local communities is important for debian! 21:55:42 fcestrada_ni: sure, I was just arguing about it while the meeting doesn't restart :P 21:55:58 xD 21:56:19 h01ger: I also considered it as such... but during long discussions it was demoted to a minor point 21:56:21 zumbi, good point, i trust very much .br people here, but I'm worried about moving to SESC too late, with no details 21:56:50 so, unless we change what we said (yes, long ago), I'll point to what has already been agreed 21:56:53 How many of DebConf Orga Team affiliates have good insight into the state of thing in Nicaragua and the feasibility of DebConf there? 21:57:07 I am asking this for .ni since we already had a debconf in .br... 21:57:12 h01ger: the agenda said we'd give up and vote at 22:00 if we didn't have consensus, what do you want to do? 21:57:38 also, .br didn't answer tassia's questions regarding venue visits 21:57:55 tiago: you can ask it on the other channel now. 21:57:57 tiago: Sorry, we missed that one. 21:58:05 although I'm pretty sure SESC would be a great place 21:58:07 h01ger: they're very close, so I'm not sure that asking more questions now will help anything 21:58:12 marga, oh thks 21:58:12 sapphire: having had it in Brazil, 1500Km away, and seven years ago... should play no (real) role related to having it in 2012. 21:58:15 moray, i'd rather wished i'd read we try to find consensus at 22:00 and vote at 22:10/22:15 21:58:21 6 people voting shouldnt take long 21:58:28 (6?) 21:58:34 h01ger: sure, waiting a few minutes is fine, I ask you because you were more urgent to stop having to type :) 21:58:37 tiago: One member of the team was in SESC today. As you said, we had this last minute change, and not all of us could go there yet. 21:59:34 moray, no, not only waiting but discussing.. what are your opinions? 21:59:55 (i just gave my points on #-team but are unsure how to think in the end) 22:01:05 i think i might be slightly in favor of .ni - also because we had debconf in .br already 22:01:14 gwolf, I know, I just wonder if anyone from Orga Team has good knowlegde of Nicaragua, that is all 22:01:41 sapphire: I do 22:02:08 sapphire: I mean, I have not lived there... But I was in Managua - And I bitched the poor guys there so hard that they accepted and ran the bid ;-) 22:02:50 gwolf: :D 22:02:57 gwolf: xD 22:03:09 sapphire: The Central American communities held a preparatory mini-DebConf in Panama about one year ago... I could not be there, but some people in this channel were (i.e. fcestrada_ni, from Mexico). He didn't know the nicaraguans beforehand - and now he seems to be applying for citizenship. 22:03:22 (figuratively of ocurse) 22:03:25 gwolf, :) 22:03:30 gwolf: ;) 22:04:56 gwolf, thanks 22:08:00 It seems that I'm always forced to vote against my instincts.. 22:08:25 . o O (Both venues will get us a great DebConf FWIW) 22:08:40 Yup, I agree ^^ 22:09:12 Indeed. 22:10:08 h01ger, .br is too large to consider a DC in 2004 IMO 22:10:47 h01ger, also, DC4 is considered by many people as the "best", and it took place in SESC 22:10:47 Still, there are so many countries, you don't want to repeat. 22:10:52 that's a good point for .br 22:11:12 btw, a question that occurred to me just now - at DC4 in PA there were problems providing vegetarian/vegan food for those with dietary requirements. Is this going to be an issue at either of the proposed venues? 22:11:36 vorlon: not for .ni 22:11:37 I fear postponing will leave us in the exact same spot we are standing now... only better informed. We can postpone the decision forever. 22:11:44 for those on the other side of the cultural barrier: beans with ham is not vegetarian :) 22:11:51 lol 22:11:59 no at all... the restaurant can provide a variety of food... 22:12:04 beans with chicken? 22:12:06 Brazilians, nicaraguans: If you get the bid, will you attend DC11? (and if you don't?) 22:12:07 vorlon: this issue requires a follow-up closer to the date. It's always possible to provide good veggie food, but there has to be someone knowledgeable in charge. 22:12:10 vorlon: but there's no meat in it?! 22:12:11 beans with beans? 22:12:18 * h01ger grins at vorlons f00d 22:12:19 vorlon: No, we checked with the restaurant and there are vegan options. 22:12:25 jcristau: /me loves beans. And there are some vegetarian chickens! 22:12:28 vorlon, I can say things have changed a lot here concerning vegetarian habits here 22:12:31 since 2004 22:12:42 marga: ok, I guess you have the relevant experience, I defer to you :) 22:12:43 I would love to attend and help with DC11. I'm not sure if I will be able to afford that, though. 22:12:48 so the vegetables will be less tasty for the rest of us? 22:12:49 it's too easy to have vegan options everywhere 22:13:00 If I get the bid I'll certainly attend. If we don't I'll try, but I might not be able to. 22:13:39 * gregoa agrees that postponing the decision wouldn't help 22:13:56 * jeremiah_ agrees as well. It will still be hard later. 22:14:08 also, (at least in SP), SESC always have many no-meat, no-milk, no-gluten etc options 22:14:15 SP = sao paulo 22:14:31 I'm also certainly going to DC11 if we get the bid. 22:15:02 you should go even if the bid goes to NI 22:15:11 As a DebConf attendee, that is, just a regular attendee, I really appreciate the hard work everyone has done. Both the candidate cities and the DebConf team. 22:15:32 So I say thank you from me and all the other attendees. 22:16:03 rmayorga: I should and I want, I don't know if I'll have the money, as rafael_br mentioned. 22:16:06 diana and denis are members of our team, they are vegetarian and vegan :) 22:16:11 I want to go either way, but if we get the bid I'll make a way to go. Otherwise, something may hold me back. 22:16:33 but my current plan is to go regardless 22:16:34 rmayorga: If I knew I'd get my tickets sponsored, I would not think about it. 22:18:55 (four minutes to h01ger's deadline) 22:19:00 3 22:19:21 maybe gwolf has a non-integer timezone offset 22:19:24 * blarson_ agrees with ni by a small margin. 22:19:29 do you think we have consensus for .ni? 22:19:34 so, is this some sort of Miss Universe ritual? We wait until the last minute to give the crown? 22:19:39 xD 22:19:46 who has the golden envelope? 22:19:46 gwolf: :D 22:19:47 does anybody oppose a consensus towards .ni? 22:19:57 09:04 < h01ger> do you think we have consensus for .ni? 22:19:58 09:04 < gwolf> so, is this some sort of Miss Universe ritual? We wait until the last minute to give the crown? 22:20:01 09:05 < aranax_ni> xD 22:20:07 sorry :/ 22:20:12 2 minutes 22:20:22 n0rman_ni: hey, you are spying on us! 22:20:48 * tiago has no strong opinion yet 22:20:58 gwolf: no :( im nervous and moving my mouse :( 22:20:59 1 minute 22:20:59 I don't think having started the negotiations with the ISP is that important 22:21:11 other than that I rather see debconf in SESC other than scattered hotels 22:21:25 h01ger: anyway, I think most DebConf decisions so far have been taken by a verrrry slim margin 22:21:34 gwolf, yeah 22:21:47 as bidding teams are always excellent... And I'm not doing any politically-correct speech 22:21:54 * karora thinks it's great to have two fantastic proposals, TBH/ 22:21:56 my concern regarding network goes to both teams, btw 22:22:18 karora: thanks! 22:22:21 my concern regarding *everything* go to both teams :) 22:22:43 h01ger: :D 22:22:52 Oh, it seems we have to sound the buzzer and delay the decision... 22:23:15 tsk, tsk, running over 22:24:20 for now my view is a little to br, but I have no objection to Managua bid at all. 22:24:32 * h01ger wishes for Clints iron fist 22:24:56 It seems to be a real tough call... But not being myself on the choosing committee... 22:25:09 wait, I'll move to the official channel... :) 22:25:11 any non-bidder goes to br? if not I guess i reached a consensus 22:25:15 s/i/we 22:27:02 thanks br bid, and congrats ni bid 22:27:55 Thank you everyone for a good, calm, meeting. And good discussion on here. 22:28:27 thank you everybody! 22:28:44 Emphasis on the "calm" part. You have shown us how we can conduct a civil meeting on a hard subject! 22:30:00 #endmeeting