19:00:49 #startmeeting 19:00:49 Meeting started Sat Jun 5 19:00:49 2010 UTC. The chair is MrBeige. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:49 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:54 greetings. who all is here? 19:00:59 me! 19:01:22 I 19:01:33 we can has agenda online, please edit it now if you want to add stuff: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/Meetings 19:01:34 hello 19:02:15 #topic Budget status and estimates 19:02:28 present 19:02:37 I made up a spreadsheet to plug numbers into 19:02:52 good good 19:03:11 debconf-data/dc10/budget.ods 19:03:29 with no changes from what it has, we are -55000, -35000 with 20k from debian 19:03:46 removing 20 sponsored peolpe saves 15k 19:03:59 * micah greets 19:04:10 (but some of that has happenned by people declining) 19:04:13 any idea how the "write what you do for Debian" is working? 19:04:17 how much is raised vs. carried from last time? 19:04:35 to compare with the deficit 19:04:38 moray: I just sent an e-mail with the raised numbers 19:04:39 #link http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/Meetings#Global_Team.2C_Sat_June_5th.2C_19:00_UTC_.2815:00_EDT.29 19:04:39 70k from dc9 19:04:49 if meals costed $10/day it would save 20k 19:05:08 we expect to fundraise at least 10-20k more 19:05:17 ana/micah/marga know about asking people to fill in what they do for debian 19:05:26 ana's net connection may be flaking out on her, though 19:05:43 DrDub: how much pledged now? (without the 10k-20k more) ? 19:05:54 about 14k 19:05:57 DrDub: so it will be easy for you to paste the headline figure here? 19:06:00 maybe 1,2k more 19:06:05 sure, gimme a sec 19:06:16 I mean total pledged amount 19:06:25 Received at SPI: $38,524 19:06:25 Invoiced: $15,200 19:06:25 Pledged: ~14,000 19:06:42 I mean the 61k number, what is that now ? 19:06:48 +2k 19:06:54 (real) 19:07:09 though add to 67.7 received/invoiced/pledged? 19:07:10 those 19:07:11 ok, 63k is "pledged" (which I take to mean that there is an agreement that it will be invoiced and poid) 19:07:14 we also have 2-3 more people that have said they'll sponsor at certain level 19:07:19 which I have added to pledged 19:07:26 MrBeige: yes 19:07:42 MrBeige: although some of those agreements are for sponsorship levels so we're missing the exact number 19:07:55 right 19:07:56 so roughly 12k at 90% surety? 19:08:03 (will do silver, will do at least bronze, things like that) 19:08:15 Clint: for pledged? 19:08:19 so 67.7 received/invoiced/pledged, 70 from dc9, 20 from Debian, we need another 35? 19:08:24 for stuff without exact amounts 19:08:36 Clint: yes, 12k sounds certain enough 19:08:57 is 20k from Debian a given ? 19:09:26 not necessarily 19:09:35 moray: well, 10-20k we can fundraise plus 10k from Jimmy plus 5k "modest" debt 19:10:00 Zack asked that anywhere we discuss Debian money we involve him later on 19:10:01 do we want to use 20k from debian? 19:10:12 DrDub: what's this 10k from Jimmy? 19:10:13 ok, so we should try to make do without debian mony ? 19:10:26 so I guess we'll have to send him these minutes if we are sure we'll need it 19:10:31 moray: a theoretical loan 19:10:34 I rather we do not 19:10:35 MrBeige: if we're already wiping out 70k reserves, it seems unfortunate to take another 20 19:10:37 MrBeige: i think its 'do we want to *ask* for 20k from debian', we shouldn't assume we have it 19:10:44 moray: exactly 19:10:45 Clint: loans aren't actually free money, apparently 19:11:03 that is very unamerican of you 19:11:14 Clint: so while it might prevent a supposed meltdown, it doesn't help fill the deficit 19:11:21 right now what my budget says is "70k surplus, 67k pledged, 12k likely" 19:11:30 wait 19:11:41 the 12k likely was a different answer 19:11:51 63k pledged, 12k likely? 19:11:56 ok, please let me know what I should put there 19:11:57 I mean, I thought 12k was to put down a number for the 14k pledged 19:12:05 I don't think we have a liquidity issue, if money's slow we can get a loan for that from Debian 19:12:18 MrBeige: the 12k likely is the expectations for fundraising? 19:12:19 basically all I want to is what to plug into the budget, so I can tell people what our overall status is 19:12:33 MrBeige: that's what I was trying to get above, yes 19:12:46 MrBeige: I can't speak for Zack / Sledge / zumbi / AndrewLee. I have about 5k that'll most probably happen. 19:12:46 "so 67.7 received/invoiced/pledged, 70 from dc9, 20 from Debian, we need another 35?" 19:13:03 so please tell me what I should include, I don't think we need to discuss the details here 19:13:03 MrBeige: except that possibly people agree the 20 from Debian should be avoided 19:13:12 if it can be 19:13:15 moray: we cannot automatically calculate that 20k from Debian 19:13:26 I moved 20k to tentative, so will exclude it from the rest of my calculations 19:13:37 i'm not convinced that the 20 from Debian should be avoided 19:13:43 well, if the 20k is the difference between offering minimal food or not, then we can make a case for it 19:13:46 Debian funds exist to further the OS 19:13:53 i'm not convinced it should be avoided either, but we cannot say we have it without it being given 19:14:00 the OS is not a conference 19:14:01 and getting debian developers together in person is a good way to do that 19:14:02 ok, this is not going to get us anywhere 19:14:11 debian has not given debconf 20k, nobody has even asked for it 19:14:18 dkg: I would feel much better if Debian pays for the travel sponsorships, for example 19:14:47 MrBeige: put 65 pledged, 20k likely 19:14:56 the 20k number is just an arbitrary number someone came up with based on a loan from debian in the past 19:14:57 #info With 20 people removed from sponsorship, $10/meal, 2meals/day, 67k pledged/12klikely, and the current budget, we are -4000 19:15:01 it is not based on anything else 19:15:10 right now we have not promised more money than we have right? 19:15:27 the only promises we have made are to columbia 19:15:31 #info With 20 people removed from sponsorship, $10/meal, 2meals/day, 65k pledged/20k likely, and the current budget, we are +1300 19:15:34 i mean we did not promise food so if you remove the sponsored food, right now we are not in red numbers 19:15:40 MrBeige: how has it gone from -55 to -4? 19:15:46 MrBeige: so with 20k likely we have 4k left for sponsorships? does that count 20k from Debian? 19:15:49 moray: he is cutting expenses 19:15:53 +travel 19:16:01 Clint: I was wondering which ones 19:16:06 moray: plugging in food cost being 2/3rds of what we planned and cutting people 19:16:06 food costs 19:16:10 moray: some people did no reconfirm and removed "i want to attend" 19:16:17 and other people switched from sponsored to pay 19:16:24 or pay food 19:16:39 DrDub: working out what we currently *can* afford seems worthwhile, yes 19:16:40 little from here, little from there.. 19:16:54 #action MrBeige gets numbers from people and mails an updated budget to the list 19:17:05 can we move on ? 19:17:10 * micah nods 19:17:15 DrDub: as I agree it looks like we're not in disaster territory, if we cut out travel sponsorship/food costs/etc. 19:17:34 #topic Cutting sponsored people, how much we have to do 19:17:43 MrBeige: please include a "what we *can* afford currently" version 19:17:47 moray: not we're not, DebConf10 will happen and it'll be a blast :) 19:17:58 DrDub: (yes, I'm sure of that) 19:18:09 ana, micah: can you elaborate on this? How many are currently "no", and how many "maybe" ? 19:18:12 MrBeige: yes 19:18:15 DrDub: (including if we cut some of the costs back) 19:18:36 MrBeige: is this the "$tourist" people or something else? 19:18:45 we have currently +40 people that have not been promised anything 19:18:47 moray: correct, $tourists 19:19:12 we got answer of some of them after the first emails and mailed those who did not put anything in penta today before the meeting 19:20:08 #info < ana> we have currently +40 people that have not been promised anything 19:20:28 any idea how many are likely to be told "no" to in the end ? 19:20:31 maybe we can scare more people away by telling them how hot it is already and how much worse it will get in august ;) 19:20:36 my estimation is we won't sponsor at least half of those 19:20:47 #info < ana> my estimation is we won't sponsor at least half of those 19:20:58 can you say what criteria we are using and then we can move on? 19:21:01 so you can count we won't sponsor food+accom to 20 at least 19:21:12 good, from a budget point of view :) 19:21:25 we have ask them put in penta what they do in debian, if what they put sounds like they know what debian is 19:21:38 we accept them, if not, we won't grant them sponsorship 19:21:49 and we are being more strict with debcamp 19:21:55 sounds good 19:22:00 yay 19:22:09 yup 19:22:10 how many peolpe have been told 'no' for debcamp ? 19:22:37 so far nobody because we still have not finished processing the fist batch of people who filed their info in penta 19:22:43 ana: are you checking those independently? i.e. removing debcamp sponsorship from involved people if they didn't give a good debcamp explanation? 19:23:02 (as we've always threatened people we'll do that part) 19:23:11 (or did that happen already before) 19:23:12 moray: no yet, so far we only have mailed and make explicit we want to hear from them before 10th June 19:23:38 to be clear, I'm asking as this is separate from the simple $tourist people 19:23:45 ok 19:24:08 moray: at one point it was said that workplans for debcamp don't matter, so there's a bit of debate on that 19:24:18 or more like "anyone can come" kind of thing 19:24:27 we have some cases that "confirmed" and did put any more information 19:24:30 MrBeige: well, I have previously felt that some valid Debian people signed up for the DebCamp part just as a holiday 19:24:35 those has been mailed reminding they do not have anythign granted yet 19:24:42 moray: AOL @ that 19:24:46 MrBeige: so I fall on the 'workplan' side 19:25:06 moray: yes, but we have not done anything in that regard 19:25:41 everybody who was clearly linked to debian was granted accom for all the days they asked 19:25:46 ok 19:25:57 we should probably move on, those who want to work on this can discuss later 19:26:08 sounds good 19:26:11 agreed 19:26:13 is there a need to do decide on something other than what we are doing now? 19:26:38 yes, all this will be more clear after 10th june 19:26:40 #topic Scheduling 19:26:50 we need volunters to this task :) 19:26:50 we need to find a way to resolve the issue about debcamp, but perhaps now is not the time 19:26:53 MrBeige: well, if we're tight on budget it's worth checking the workplans too 19:26:57 who would like to volunteer for scheduling, and how would they like to do it? 19:27:09 I have some suggestion independent of who does it 19:27:25 MrBeige: (following a similar process as for the $tourists) 19:27:26 I think it'll be good to ask the people giving talks to say which other talks they'd like to attend 19:27:47 that'd produce more constraints, which can make the scheduling easier 19:27:47 DrDub: that introduces extra constraints, right? 19:27:54 yup 19:28:08 it is like sudoku, more constraints, easier to solve 19:28:09 sometimes more constraints make scheduling harder too, though 19:28:10 I think we should focus on who would like to do it, and their plans, since they will be the one implementing it 19:28:20 if someone would like another plan, then they can volunteer, too 19:28:25 * Clint grins. 19:28:30 i'm willing to participate in it, but i would understand if folks don't want me touching it. 19:28:53 #info dkg offers 19:29:02 does anyone know of offers from peolpe who aren't here now? 19:29:10 some of the people who were advocating the new dc10 ideas should presumably look into it :) 19:29:24 yes 19:29:24 moray: "new dc10 ideas"? 19:29:25 (i.e. carefully planning things about related talks, etc.) 19:29:38 gotcha 19:29:38 dkg: would you like to do both pre-conf scheduling + during-conf scheduling ? 19:29:51 (presumably according to the A-train workflow ? 19:30:12 i might be a masochist, but i'm willing to try. 19:30:21 it'd be nice to have someone else involved too, though. 19:30:22 * DrDub is keeping himself away from all things non-fundraising 19:30:29 as long as you start it for now, i'm sure you can attract other help 19:30:38 or people running in terror :) 19:30:45 so agreed? 19:31:07 dkg for president :) 19:31:08 this is considered a global task, correct? 19:31:11 i don't hear any other volunteers 19:31:23 and i have no experience doing this 19:31:24 Clint: yes, any global volunteers? 19:31:27 andreas expressed some interest 19:31:39 you can at least get some info from him 19:31:45 Clint: yes 19:31:51 dkg: can we assign you for now and you can pass it on to andreas or someone if they would like? 19:31:52 Clint: random Germans volunteered before, e.g. 19:32:09 MrBeige: OK by me. 19:32:12 perhaps we can snag them on the list 19:32:17 i think andreas said he would not be doing it this year 19:32:23 even if we disclaimed responsibility for last-minute talks, scheduling *will* continue as a DebConf-time task too 19:32:24 but gwolf said he could help during the conference 19:32:29 #action dkg will post a RFH for scheduling on debconf-team@ 19:32:32 #agreed dkg volunteers for both pre-conf and during-conf scheduling now, but may pass it on if he identifies others who would like to do it 19:32:39 as speakers turn up late / suddenly announce their talk isn't ready, etc. 19:32:39 micah: he said he won't do it if we keep unofficial / official talks 19:32:50 and at minimum the schedule should be adjusted to cancel those 19:32:51 ah, i didn't catch that detail 19:32:52 #topic how shall we run "unscheduled" events on-site 19:33:09 who likes attempting the unconference/A-Train idea on site ? 19:33:10 suggestion: 19:33:38 andreas (I think) said something about never scheduling something with less than 1 day of advance notice 19:33:45 wiki the previous days and the day before at 21:00 it gets into penta? 19:34:02 ana: that's a good idea 19:34:03 DrDub: that was because debian, unconference does not get video 19:34:04 "wiki the previous days" ? 19:34:17 sorry, i don't understand 19:34:26 that was h01ger 19:34:27 dkg: I think people use a wiki to submit talks the day before 19:34:32 I found his e-mail 19:34:37 dkg: you can put in the wiki by monday you intend to do something in thursday 19:34:42 dkg: like the unconference, and then one person the night before enters into penta 19:34:47 that is not "set into stone" until wednesdat at 21:00 19:35:07 201005271038.31581.holger@layer-acht.org 19:35:18 ana: that seems reasonable, as long as people don't do edit wars in the wiki 19:35:26 dkg: can you work out on-site scheduling procedures ? 19:35:29 dkg: i do not think it will happen 19:35:30 ana: he explicitly said it wasn't because of video issues 19:35:37 talking with everyone here? 19:35:38 also because it drivers schedulers crazy 19:35:45 you get emails and emails 19:35:49 but with this does not happen 19:36:04 scheduler just go and process at 20:55 19:36:13 ana: this wiki-then-schedule sounds reasonable; it's somewhere between the previous practice and the unconference idea 19:36:14 (sounds like eBay) 19:36:14 yes, yes, +1 for ana's idea, either that or complete unscheduled unconference 19:36:17 MrBeige: if folks here are currently comfortable with the general unconference-ish approach via a wiki, i can flesh out the details. 19:36:38 #agreed wiki idea: < ana> wiki the previous days and the day before at 21:00 it gets into penta? 19:36:39 i am also ok with all in wiki 19:36:40 it seems a fair halfway house to try this year? 19:36:51 I'm not but I'm glad we have a consensus ;-) 19:36:52 but people likes having it in penta for the irc bot 19:36:53 #agreed dkg will flesh out ideas for this and work on making it happen 19:36:56 and because storical reasons 19:37:02 DrDub: can you explain your objections? 19:37:06 if it works well, then the next time we might decide to take it further in the "unconference" vein 19:37:13 #topic Proceedings 19:37:17 dkg: jsut the edit war 19:37:18 i'm not promising to abide by them, but i'd like to take them into account ;) 19:37:27 (printed) proceedings have sometimes been done, sometimes not 19:37:31 DrDub: let me see if i can figure out mechanism to avoid that. 19:37:36 i agree that an edit war is unlikely 19:37:37 I think the biggest factor here is if someone wants to do them 19:37:42 some people like them, and some people don't like them 19:37:42 dkg: then it's all good :) 19:37:51 DrDub: if there is an edit war, I'll find more rooms 19:37:58 that is why there is a checkbox in penta now, so people can decide if they want the printed ones or not 19:38:09 I feel strongly against printed proceedings :-( 19:38:11 perhaps we could charge for them 19:38:17 my office is full of them and they are useless 19:38:19 i also do not like them, i prefer trees 19:38:20 I think the proceedings didn't happen last time? 19:38:23 i am also against proceedings 19:38:24 so how about someone mails debconf-team looking for a volunteer to handle it, and then go from there? 19:38:25 I don't see the point really 19:38:34 the people who most liked them in the past just wanted them as a souvenir 19:38:35 do people want them for their employers? 19:38:38 I dislike printed proceedings 19:38:47 it'd be nice to have proceedings but not printed 19:38:49 it seems a pretty strong consensus against proceedings 19:38:53 ah 19:38:56 what are the figures for the checkbox question currently? 19:39:01 i don't really want or need proceedings, but i confess i have a soft spot for my copy of the proceedings from the first big academic conference i presented at. 19:39:14 stupid sentimentality, mainly :/ 19:39:15 we can set up a pre-order on-line for people who wants them printed 19:39:17 we could ask anyone in favor of proceedings to step up and make a case 19:39:24 for employers or things like that 19:39:31 would someone like to be in change of abstract prodding, and complinig a PDF of talks+abstracts ? 19:39:44 and if someone wants to print, they can do it themselves? 19:39:51 MrBeige: I love the idea 19:39:59 MrBeige: when it is the time frame for that? 19:40:08 I would like to have proceeding as pdf 19:40:08 MrBeige: for that task 19:40:11 i like that idea too, though i'm not volunteering to do the prodding or the PDF compilation. 19:40:20 sapphire: are you volunteering? :) :) 19:40:21 DrDub: no particular timeline, I guess 19:40:31 prodding sounds like a bigger job to me than pdf compilation. 19:40:37 I'm fantasizing sapphire is ;-) 19:40:38 DrDub, depends on what, generally yes 19:40:45 sapphire: I can give you lists of talks, so you can mail peolp easking to add an updated abstract 19:40:54 and then at the end, find some way to make it a pretty PDF 19:41:00 sapphire: would you like to do that? 19:41:03 MrBeige, yes 19:41:09 \o/ 19:41:22 sapphire: maybe marga can help you make it pretty 19:41:33 DrDub, no problemo 19:41:43 #agreed We'll do proceedings just as a PDF, with titles+abstracts. sapphire will handle prodding for good abstracts + getting the PDF made 19:41:51 MrBeige: in the past there were papers as well as abstracts, optionally 19:41:58 sapphire: and if anyone would like to add a paper, they can do that, too 19:42:08 moray: yes, that can be an option too 19:42:11 (in the further past they were meant to be compulsary, but I think the people who wanted that lost the war long ago) 19:42:39 #topic t-shirts, banners, other stuff to be printed, etc 19:42:41 MrBeige, agreed, although, we need to announce this so that people can send those papers to me/us for consideration 19:42:56 sapphire: I can get you data needed to do that 19:43:09 there are at least three print shops in walking distance from columbia 19:43:09 okay 19:43:16 (walking distance, like across one or two streets) 19:43:32 aha 19:43:41 some of this is necessary (more than proceedings) 19:43:46 as it's promised to sponsors 19:43:46 i have an idea about this, I can tell when we talk what is in the agenda 19:43:46 where you can walk in and get anything made, including oversized printing 19:44:07 I see 19:44:07 for t-shirts, it's quite likely to be cheaper to get them made further away 19:44:10 yes 19:44:19 would someone like to contact gaby about this again? 19:44:22 I guess you're thinking about the banner for the lobby and stuff like that 19:44:56 do we have a wiki page yet of printed things we absolutely need? 19:44:59 and take valessio's suggestions, get votes on the list, and the design to send? 19:45:32 local team should work out where banners will go 19:45:35 we also need to choose color schemes, right? 19:45:38 and therefore how many / what size 19:45:45 I don't know where Columbia will permit them 19:45:56 e.g. main street entrances? (probably not :) 19:46:03 #action localteam works on list of locations and sizes for banners 19:46:30 one on the side of the main engineering school building could work 19:46:39 so, color schemes 19:46:48 who wants to manage this via the lists? 19:46:51 I was hoping to focus on these stuff after fundraising wanes down 19:46:54 for t-shirts, we had a 'standard' one by now 19:46:56 valessio has a good link 19:47:05 i.e. for volunteers/video team/whoever 19:47:20 with the regular shirts being variable 19:47:21 (not at the design level more at at the 'ordering, tracking, etc' level) 19:47:38 but now it seems we'll be fundraising till December ;-) 19:47:56 http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20100603.021836.bdb34516.en.html valessio's pick-your-color magic link 19:48:23 wasn't there a page documenting the previous color schemes? 19:48:34 i also thought more than "regular" was variable 19:48:48 Clint: IIRC the last couple of years the others had settled down 19:48:56 Clint: they also varied before that 19:49:02 how about we: have distribute valessio's link, ask people their thoughts, decide color schemes based on that? 19:49:26 who would like to handle this on the lists ? 19:49:35 Clint: the role ones were meant to be logical by required visibility etc. 19:50:15 MrBeige: you should work out who will organise the printing, then sorting out colours is a minor issue in their job 19:50:20 ok 19:50:33 who wants to contact gaby (directly) and ask for a proposal ? 19:50:44 are we done with shirts? i want to talk about more merchadise 19:50:47 local team should also check US prices 19:50:56 and compare with gaby's offer (if any) 19:50:59 #action localteam checks local prices for t-shirt printing 19:51:13 (taking into account that we don't want to enslave gaby if not necessary :) 19:51:28 we need someone to ask gaby about shirts. who? 19:51:29 moray: ? 19:51:34 moray: yes, you! 19:51:39 is that ok ? 19:51:41 MrBeige: again, you should pick some local team person to do this work 19:51:58 colours, and asking gaby, are minor aspects, but a T-Shirt Manager is needed 19:52:04 we can get someone to help you 19:52:13 ok, so not global at all then, you say? 19:52:20 why is it a local issue if it's better to be done far away? 19:52:31 but no, sorry, I don't have time -- busy at work this week, then at a conference for 10 days from Saturday 19:52:48 Clint: to compare prices 19:52:52 #action MrBeige makes sure we find a t-shirt manage, will ask local+global 19:52:57 not for handling the shirts are done etc 19:52:57 I'd suggest then we don't discuss it at global team again and move it to local team 19:53:00 ana: there can just be a local helpur for that 19:53:03 these meetings are long enough as they are 19:53:14 #topic reconfirmation reminder? 19:53:18 do we want one? 19:53:19 ok, so what about done some more smaill merchadise? 19:53:20 Clint: they also need to arrange delivery, potentially customs issues, etc. etc. 19:53:21 MrBeige: waut! 19:53:35 liek mugs or something, because for some people who are helping out at coulumbia 19:53:36 oops 19:53:40 moray: aha 19:53:41 we should give them something 19:53:42 ana: like Zack figurines? 19:53:43 #topic small merchandize 19:53:50 looks like MrBeige is getting a lot of help 19:53:59 there are lots of helpers at columbia 19:54:00 and some can be sold at debconf 19:54:03 merchandise is spelled with an s 19:54:12 (and no everybody wants a shirt) 19:54:15 they should at least get a shirt and some free food (if they are helping us throughout the week) 19:54:19 how expensive is making mugs? 19:54:24 Zack figurines! 19:54:25 mugs should be quite cheap 19:54:26 debian mugs or something debconf-y 19:54:31 * dkg wants a Zack figurine ;) 19:54:32 I don't know current prices 19:54:37 * MrBeige doesn't know prices 19:54:48 figurines will be expensive 19:55:00 in latest spanish debconf we did mug, they were cheaper and people was happier 19:55:13 it is also something you give people to help that they use 19:55:18