19:03:19 #startmeeting DebConf13 decision meeting 19:03:19 Meeting started Mon Feb 20 19:03:19 2012 UTC. The chair is Caroll. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:03:19 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:03:44 hello again :) 19:03:53 hi everyone 19:04:00 #topic Introductions/questions 19:04:20 where is the agenda again? whats the side-channels? 19:04:21 Hi, thanks everyone for attending the meeting. 19:04:44 As you know, the point of this meeting is to decide a venue for DebConf13. The tradition is that we aim to get a consensus decision, but to avoid a stalemate and for clarity we'll ask the DebConf Committee members to vote on the winner at the end. 19:05:01 You can check the formal details in http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/BidProcess 19:05:16 For the first part of the meeting, we ask only two representatives from the bid teams, and DebConf Committee members, to speak on this channel. I suggest others use #debconf-discuss, then people can proxy any points from there to here if needed. 19:05:41 #info The designated speakers are, for Latvia, aigarius_lv and pecisk_lv, and for Switzerland, gismo_ch and gaudenz_ch 19:06:00 Hopefully everyone watching has read through the bids. If not, see 19:06:00 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Latvia 19:06:00 and 19:06:00 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid 19:06:11 #info the channel is now moderated. For participation, please join #debconf-discuss and we will try to relay. 19:06:32 Before we get going, could each bid team give a quick introduction (whatever they want to say), and ask any final questions you might have -- Switzerland first? 19:06:56 Caroll: as you want 19:06:59 gaudenz_ch: should I? 19:07:07 gismo_ch: go on 19:07:31 quick summary: the Swiss bid was prepared as a team under the debian.ch umbrella 19:07:36 i see http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/BidProcess#Venue_decision has a agenda for today, but http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings lacks an agenda - shall we put one up there? 19:07:41 also with a timeline? 19:07:52 h01ger: OK, tell me when I can continue ;-) 19:07:52 we used to limit this to the 3h, /me thinks 19:07:56 there was one somewhere, maybe it's on dc12 by mistake? 19:08:02 h01ger: last year was 2 1/2 hours 19:08:13 h01ger: I hope we could do less this year, the effective agenda is shorter 19:08:21 as the team comments are posted in advance 19:08:24 I hope we make it shorter this time 19:08:48 gismo_ch: please continue even while the logistics are discussed 19:08:55 maybe 1 1/2 max? 19:09:11 the debian.ch infrastructure was used together with the lists.debconf.net, so everything was/is public 19:09:41 we are at least 6 core members (4 DDs, already present at past DebConfs) 19:09:42 h01ger: moray prepared a simple script for this, and Caroll has it now. We can treat it as the agenda... even if it's not wiki-based and with our usual agendas 19:10:13 plus other local team members (DDs included) already active in the debian.ch infrastructure 19:10:26 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings does have the agenda, just not so detailed 19:10:30 and other new members from external associations 19:10:52 during our meetings, it was clear that we were interested in a "different" DebConf 19:11:12 gwolf, moray, Caroll: then please put the script on http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings 19:11:16 Switzerland is known for the natural environment and this was our main goal: a DebConf "inside" the nature 19:11:28 h01ger: I'll do it 19:11:57 thanks. and lets have formal blaba on #debconf-discuss :) 19:12:03 so quickly we decided to focus on such venues, still keeping the biggest cities (Zürich and Genève) as a backup option 19:12:40 the final choice was 'Le Camp', decided after three of us (gaudenz_ch, Odyx and myself) visited it and discussed the detail with the current director 19:13:33 the venue is managed by a YMCA association, it can accomodate 325 people plus more if needed on the surroundings (camping allowed) 19:14:18 it is structured in various ~30-person bungalows, with a central structure for meals and big auditoriums (300 places) 19:15:18 #info Switzerland focuses on a "DebConf inside the nature" 19:15:23 it is situated in front of the lake of Neuchatel (one of the central lake in Switzerland) and next to the central Alps, well-known for climbing and mountain walking 19:16:14 Vaumarcus, the village where the camp is located, is small, but still connected with the two major cities on the side of the lake: Neuchatel and Yverdons-les-Bains 19:16:23 #info Proposed venue: "Le Camp", managed by YMCA, can accomodate 325 people plus campers (camping allowed) 19:16:39 it is at about 2-3 hours from GVA or ZRH (the two main airports) by public transports 19:17:10 there will be a fiber Internet connection, also decided by the foundation managing the camp because we were interested to go there 19:17:17 (so yes, they "used" us) 19:17:42 (for this reason they also told us that they would like us as a sort of "giving back") 19:17:53 gismo_ch, I sorry, I forgot to tell you that you have 10 minutes to the introduction 19:18:15 To summarize our bid strongly focuses on the community gathering aspect of DebConf as everything is on one compound outside of major cities. We'll have the whole thing exclusively for DebConf. 19:18:15 Caroll: I think that was meant to be for both :) 19:18:19 #info bid teams have 10 minutes to give a quick introduction 19:18:20 Caroll: that is a nice way to tell me I should stop ;-) 19:18:25 moray, sure 19:18:36 sorry, we didn't have many formalities ironed out :) 19:18:42 gismo_ch, I sorry :D 19:18:46 To get the impression have a look at the picture on http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid 19:18:46 moray: well, it should now be 10+10 to be fair :) 19:18:48 gwolf: np, as usual I talk a lot (as any Italians...) 19:18:59 I am Aigars Mahinovs and the bid for Riga, Latvia is my brainchild with the help of several core members of Latvian open source community who have worked hard to make the typically hard issues look trivial. 19:19:12 The focus of the bid is the city of Riga and the Latvian University building in the center of it, so this is a city center Debconf with an emphasis on academia. 19:19:26 Accomodation in hostels reinforces the cheap, studenty aspect of the bid, while more expensive hotel accomodation option promotes Riga as a growing tourism capital with a small, but busy airport. 19:19:40 To show off the nature and history of Latvia, we have planned a day trip that would take us to a castle of Cesis where there are both ruins and a restored castle, medieval meal is planned there ... 19:19:57 And for deeper plunge into the nature we plan to take all 300 people down the river Gauja for a 3 hour calm ride in 6-12 man boats, before going back to the Cesis castle for dinner. 19:20:53 #info Latvia bid: In the University in the center of Riga (capital); accomodation available in hostels or more expensive hotels 19:20:54 So Riga is either a cheap student focused bid or a really touristy bid, depending on how much we have to spend 19:21:45 that's all from me 19:22:02 ok, thanks! 19:22:15 for helping us stay within the planned time 19:22:49 #info Riga is either a cheap student focused bid or a really touristy bid, depending on how much we have to spend 19:23:19 * h01ger would like to hear more about the local teams, esp. in regards of getting sponsorships from companies - local+worldwide 19:23:32 h01ger: wait, wait 19:23:42 #topic Bid team answers -- weak and strong points of bids 19:24:01 * h01ger stands back. gwolf knows regular expressions. 19:24:24 h01ger: ;-) 19:24:28 ok, time for the questions :) 19:25:12 please change topic then. makes it clearer, also for meetbot summary 19:26:28 so what's usual weater at conf time at 'Le Camp'? :) It looks like really decent place btw 19:26:42 time for the committee (and both teams) to voice their questions here 19:26:51 And for all others, go to #debconf-discuss, we will relay. 19:27:44 * bubulle is still trying to find the "our weak points and others strong points" from lv bid 19:27:55 pecisk_lv: August is usually sunny, in the cities it can be quite hot (>25C), while on the countryside/mountains it is nicer (around 15-25C) 19:27:59 questions about what? I thought questions would be under point "Priority List" and "Discussion". 19:28:00 it appears to me that the Latvian proposal has some indication of local sponsorship for things like connectivity, but both bids seem fairly light on information about possible local sponsors? comments from each team would be appreciated. 19:28:09 #info Latvia priority list http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Latvia/PriorityList 19:28:39 #info Switzerland priority list http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/Bid/PriorityList#DebConf_PriorityList 19:28:48 gismo_ch, nice 19:28:54 bdale: basically, debian.ch is sponsored by , which has been already contacted for DebConf13 19:29:15 * gwolf reads that it seems I misread this to be the Q&A section - so lets answer what has already been asked, and move on with Da Script 19:29:20 ok, once the current questions are done, can we have a few minutes break for people to read through those priority list answers? 19:29:51 pecisk_lv: that's a climate diagram for neuchatel http://www.klimadiagramme.de/Europa/Schweiz/neuchatel.html 19:29:55 * bdale has read both priority lists already, and thanks the team for the effort they represent 19:30:04 #info Weather in August in .ch is usually sunny, 15-25°C 19:30:10 bdale: for other sponsors >http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/minutes-20111116#Possible_sponsors 19:30:46 #info For sponsorship information: debian.ch is sponsored by , which has been already contacted for DebConf13; for other sponsors >http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Switzerland/minutes-20111116#Possible_sponsors 19:30:52 with the economic situation being as it is I do not expect to be able to get any significant local monetary sponsorship, Latvia has been hit particularly hard. There are very positive recovery signs lately, but with the rest of EU in turmoil I would not bet on it right now. 19:30:58 bdale: basically, the university of Suisse Romande (HES Neuchatel) could also be interested (and it was privately contacted), but there was no final answer yet 19:31:07 bdale: As I said in a response to h01ger on the debconf-team list I expect quite substantial local sponsorship. 19:31:54 ok, thanks 19:32:07 #info Latvian team: No significant local monetary sponsorship is expected, as the current crisis has hit Latvia particularly hard. Situation might change later on. 19:33:35 http://lists.debconf.org/lurker/message/20120203.112740.319f61fc.en.html is the mail 19:35:05 #topic Priority list 19:35:48 OK, now we'll work through the priority list, 19:35:48 http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/PriorityList 19:35:48 considering each item for each bid, and noting areas where there is consensus that bids are stronger than each other. This stage is intended to ensure that no important topic is missed, but even if there is agreement on each bid's advantages, coming to a decision isn't simply a mathematical calculation: some aspects are more important than others. 19:37:24 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees 19:38:22 Well, I don't want to sound as if we are choosing according to monetary points only - But while I see there is a proposed/preliminary Swiss budget at ~€175,000, I cannot find an actual number proposed by Latvians 19:38:30 Caroll: Do you expect us to say something or is this more a discussion among the DC comitee? 19:38:35 I might be a bit blind, of course. Do you have it? 19:38:40 gwolf: 19:38:44 oh, sorry 19:38:51 too obvious, it seems 19:38:55 I think this is about the aggregate cost of having the conference, shared between the sponsored part (venue, sponsored food and accommodation) and the part attendees pay directly (travel costs, non-sponsored hotels/food etc.). 19:39:02 thanks, gismo_ch 19:39:31 I think we can assume that Swiss bid is more affordable for Swiss sponsors, thus there is a larger chance of getting some support there 19:39:33 I would like to hear from both bids their numbers and estimate costs (person-day) 19:39:36 #info Overall preliminary budgets offered: Switzerland, ~€175,000; Latvia, ~€147,350 19:39:40 at first glance, lv seems more affordable than ch...at least this is what numbers on the prio list say 19:39:41 Looking at the daily costs / possibilities, I thought Latvia looked somewhat cheaper, depending on the option we choose? 19:40:07 Latvia had more flexibility that we could go for cheaper stuff (free venues, hostels etc.) if we're short on money 19:40:11 right, sorry again for reading too fast 19:40:15 it's sometimes hard to relay 19:40:47 #info Latvia with a hostel option - 86,000 € 19:40:48 our budget includes about 20k € of travel costs (from airports to venue) which are not included in the latvian bid budget 19:40:49 bubulle: clear, but still consider the cost of living in .ch (thus, everything is more expensive) 19:40:50 #info Actually, Latvia has two possible bids, depending on our desired luxury level: 85,925 and 147,350 19:41:00 Latvia is likely to be more expensive when it comes at travel sponsorship 19:41:07 Normally for each point we just want to conclude something like "IR is ahead" 19:41:08 also we have included our estimates for day trip and the formal diner 19:41:30 bubulle: Latvia flights are very cheap from London, for example -- for Switzerland you also need to consider the train costs etc. 19:42:03 yes, it clearly will cost more for attendees to do the post-air-flight ground transport on the Swiss bid than on the Latvian bid 19:42:05 bubulle: and some undefined transport from the station to the site, that I guess we'll need to subsidise centrally 19:42:10 without the daytrip and formal diner costs the totals are 69,500 € and 130,000 € 19:42:32 anyway, since the beginning of these bids, I've always been feeling that lv would stay ahead of ch and for me it's still the case 19:42:38 bdale: but that's exactly what we already included in the budget. 19:42:38 gaudenz_ch: in the latvian case though the airport is in the venue city, right? 19:42:40 #info .lv option includes daytrip and formal dinner (~15000€ together) 19:42:58 I don't blame Switzerland about the costs, they've done well to fine this in such an expensive country, but it seems to me we can conclude for this point "LV is more affordable" 19:42:59 could we please, going item by item? first lodging, them food then travel with itemized values 19:43:09 The airport is in the venue city and the ticket is 1 € (or 10€ taxi ride) 19:43:09 I'll note that the original day trip was something attendees paid to participate in even if otherwise sponsored for travel. I'm not saying it's a problem for the day trip to be sponsored, but rather pointing out that it doesn't need to be to satisfy me 19:43:18 moray: agreed 19:43:28 becsause now we are talking about personal stimations and I would love to know where those numbers come from. 19:43:29 moray: I agree with your methodology. We can talk details forever about the points 19:43:36 so, I'll do as you say 19:43:42 I don't think getting into cents is going to be useful 19:43:46 #info Latvia is more affordable. 19:43:51 Caroll: please continue :) 19:43:53 I don't agree 19:43:54 ana, the budgets are detailed on both bid pages 19:44:08 ana: there were notes on the Swiss budget, they are *real* numbers from 'Le Camp' or the Swiss Rail company 19:44:17 2. strong, mature, experienced local team 19:44:52 the swiss team has more DD's currently identified, but both teams seem adequate to the task to me 19:44:57 I'd say there is little debate that the Swiss local team is larger and has more collective Debconf experience 19:44:58 I agree that lv is probably more affordable. I guess with good negotiating and a bit of luck we can come down to the costs of the luxury variant of lv. 19:45:03 I'd say in now doubt that ch is ahead here. Actually, the SPOF point is imho one of the weakest points of lv 19:45:16 bubulle is on point 2 19:45:18 But anything cheaper is not possible or includes very undesirable options. 19:45:19 Both teams seem adequate as well, but the Swiss team has been more involved (as a whole) in DebConf so far 19:45:34 #info Switzerland has a stronger, maturer, more experienced local team 19:45:36 Right, the biggest important thing is prior DebConf experience 19:45:41 No need to debate here. Please go on! 19:45:44 yup 19:46:15 gaudenz_ch: I, for one, am not interested in only thinking of the "cheapest possible Debconf" .. but rather we need to make sure that a bid is "plausibly affordable" on some level relative to likely sponsorship, etc 19:47:25 Caroll: please next point! 19:47:56 oops, I'll take up, wait 19:48:13 3. good working spaces 19:48:32 This is about the quality of the talk rooms, discussion rooms, hacklabs -- do they have all the space, climate control, light-level control, etc. we want, or are there compromises needed? (This doesn't include presentation facilities etc., that comes later. And there's a separate point for accessibility later, too.) 19:48:58 Any views here? 19:49:41 * bubulle thinks that bids are more or less even here.... 19:49:47 no clear distinctions to me 19:49:55 unless the number of attendees eceeds 325 19:49:58 they're different but both seem fine 19:50:12 bubulle: right, 325 is the key point for .ch 19:50:37 so, we mark it as even and continue 19:50:43 unless somebody speaks fast 19:50:50 question - how is the DebianDay planned in .ch? 19:50:51 what was the number at previous debconfs? 19:51:06 has been up to about 400 19:51:06 I think the main difference is while in ch we have plenty (about 20) of smaller and medium simple rooms in lv you have actual university seminar rooms and auditoriums 19:51:08 ultrt: That's close to the maximum 19:51:15 moray: it has been only in Edinburgh, though 19:51:22 are local people going to be bussed in? or are we having it at a different locale? 19:51:34 gwolf: right, because that was cheap to travel to, probably -- as Switzerland might be :) 19:51:46 gaudenz_ch: in Le Camp we don't have big auditoriums? 19:51:48 according to the statistics none of the past few debconfs had more than 325 ppl actually showing up for accomodation. 19:51:58 gwolf: we have 19:52:09 moray: riga sounds easy to get to for europeans too, though? 19:52:10 gaudenz_ch: right, but we'd expect close to 100% to be lodged at Le Camp if we go to .ch 19:52:14 gaudenz_ch: right, but in Edinburgh, say, many stayed in altnerative accommodation nearby 19:52:18 We have one room for the whole debconf but I would not call that an auditorium. 19:52:21 gwolf: the big building on the left in... 19:52:25 It's just a room with chairs. 19:52:30 gaudenz_ch: consider that in places like EDI, NY, etc many people had alternative accomodation possible. In Le Camp it will be "venue or nothing", right? 19:52:31 bdale: no, at all. geneva/zurich is easier 19:52:37 gaudenz_ch: only one talk room? 19:52:48 ok .. they're both a pita for me 19:52:48 moray: only one 300+ talk room 19:53:01 And also, although a little bit secondary but still... Do you expect DebCamp to happen also at Le Camp? Do we expect people from the nearby cities to go there? 19:53:15 gwolf: you mean Debian Day? 19:53:20 gwolf: DebCamp will be at 'Le Camp', yes 19:53:22 you mean DebianDay, or Debcamp? 19:53:30 gwolf: for the price discussed before we have the *whole* venue for two weeks 19:53:32 moray: no, but only one for the whole crowd. 19:53:44 gaudenz_ch: ok, that's normal 19:53:48 I mean DebianDay 19:53:54 ana: zurich/geneva are more expensive airports to fly to, aren't they? (/me remember very cheap airbaltic flights to riga, but of course I haven't flown there that much, just twice, and commuting) 19:53:55 sorry, debianday 19:54:25 We did not decide about debian day yet. We discussed both options: at le camp or in a nearby city. 19:54:25 gwolf: Vaumarcus is not so far from surrounding cities, which means that it is suitable to travel for a single day 19:54:36 ultrt: For me, at least (one transatlantic and one intra-european) it's ~US$500 cheaper to get to .ch :( 19:54:39 DebianDay seems optional to me, driven by whether we're in a location with a potential target audience for which it's a relevant concept 19:54:39 Neuchatel has an unversity where we could probably have debian day. 19:54:42 question to Latvian team: did I miss something about over 100 attendees room? 19:54:58 bdale: yes, that's why I said it was a bit secondary 19:55:11 So, do you agree that Latvia has some leverage in this point? 19:55:23 Not a huge one, but some 19:55:34 ultrt: not from my pov 19:55:35 "Latvian University venue has a large number of classrooms with sizes from 20 to 100 people". So, nothing above 100? 19:55:37 gwolf: yes, I meant for europeans, internationally it's definitely the case 19:55:40 ultrt: For me Zurich would definitely be a lot cheaper, because it's a hub. 19:55:56 it's always good when we can do general outreach work or help with local government interest and so forth, but Debconf and particularly Debcamp are supposed to be about working together on Debian .. and that seems really quite well suited for the kind of venue the swiss bid proposes 19:56:06 aigarius_lv: ↑ bubulle's question 19:56:35 bubulle, there are two meeting rooms, one 500+ and another around 300 19:56:46 it's very nice when small groups can wander off to have separate meals or discussions when we're in a city center, but on the other hand there's a lot to be said for keeping everyone mostly together for most of the time 19:56:57 aigarius_lv: ok, thw, I missed that on the prio list 19:57:00 what I was saying that there are many rooms of up to 100 people 19:57:06 there is a picture of the main talk room: http://www.lecamp.ch/images/batiments/1int.jpg 19:57:07 bubulle, well, for classrooms, I have seen aproximetly 150 people there, but that's maximum 19:57:18 afk for a few mins, back soon 19:57:28 Ok, people, to move on: 19:57:32 * bubulle eats cheese 19:57:35 bdale, yes. i see le camp in le nature as stronger than a university (again) 19:58:41 * bubulle also thinks ch has a small lead here (prximity between working spaces, talk rooms and even lodging) 19:58:54 ok... on different criteria I can see people favoring one or the other 19:59:02 so... We call it a tie for point #3 19:59:10 yeah 19:59:10 if somebody objects, ping fast. 19:59:23 #info Working spaces is a tie. 19:59:38 ping 19:59:50 bubulle: ? 19:59:59 sorry, I haven't seen ppl rankin lv first on that point 20:00:05 I guess we lost Caroll again? 20:00:11 bu tI may have missed something 20:00:36 4. excellent network connectivity 20:00:37 * h01ger nods bubulle 20:00:48 http://www.lu.lv/eng/visitors/rooms/greathall/ - here are some images of LU great hall if someone is interested 20:00:49 We've often installed our own networking including the uplink, but this is about what's realistically possible, without assuming any special sponsorship from telecoms companies unless that's already agreed. 20:00:54 bubulle: ok... we can get back to it later if a tie-breaker is needed 20:01:02 gwolf: ok 20:01:18 gwolf, thanks! 20:01:31 lv wins here, at least because the connectivity is already in place 20:01:33 These are quite different bids, and I suspect that point by point ranking is not ultimately going to be what makes the decision. 20:01:41 karora: indeed 20:01:42 * bubulle agrees with gismo_ch 20:02:00 The main value to me in going through each of these points is to ensure that each bid meets a minimum requirement. 20:02:02 #info Latvia wins re: connectivity 20:02:16 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 20:02:20 This covers both the choice of sponsored food, and other restaurants/bars nearby (often where some of the most useful discussions have happened!). 20:02:29 On the point of connectivity I'd like to get some idea of how much work it will be to get the fibre in. 20:02:34 How far does it have to come, etc. 20:02:41 Fo .ch bid. 20:03:03 karora: the fiber should arrive at 'Le Camp', so it should be a matter of ethernet plugs 20:03:19 karora: i.e., the problem was to bring the fiber *there*, not to the village 20:03:20 Yeah, but how complex is the job of "getting the fibre to the camp"? 20:03:20 back 20:03:38 aroundthfur, please put the #info here, so MeetBot will read them 20:03:39 I know we don't have to do it, but I want to know it will be done in time. 20:03:48 from the map, a main train line is very close so I suspect good connectivty to be not that far 20:03:49 karora: this is what we asked for and they assured us it will be 20:04:07 karora: From vaumarcus to le camp at most, probably depends on who is going to do it and where their next exchange point is. 20:04:12 karora: but obviously, I stressed them on that (and I talked to the madame responsoble for that) 20:04:21 OK, thanks. 20:04:22 this means about 500m to 700m 20:04:26 this is .ch, consider it done ;) 20:04:30 karora: BTW, Init7 was also contacted on this point 20:04:30 Heh. 20:05:01 also: these are swiss, so they're likely to be able to do these types of work in times impossible for other countries :) 20:05:20 ok, people... 20:05:22 * ultrt has seen entire tram lines removed and reinstalled in zurich in weeks o-O 20:05:23 going on, 20:05:30 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity 20:05:34 what kind of uplink will they be able to provide there once the fiber is up? 20:05:34 This covers both the choice of sponsored food, and other restaurants/bars nearby (often where some of the most useful discussions have happened!). 20:05:41 it does seem like lv has the edge on connectivity just due to it being in place already, but not a big difference if the swiss plans work out 20:05:43 please, we want to go through the points 20:05:50 if we need further details, we can goback to them later 20:05:54 but we need a general overview 20:05:59 and later we will discuss details 20:06:03 ok 20:06:04 lv has the advantage on availability of various eateries 20:06:28 lv wins here, again 20:06:37 right 20:06:40 Caroll, seems you have to tell meetbot in channel 20:06:41 #info Latvia has more variety for eating nearby 20:06:46 for .ch there will be a bar/shop hosted/managed by us, but everything else is outside in the village 20:06:47 I don't think the two bids are comparable in this regard. 20:06:48 I would call things even here : "inside" good quality food likely to be easir in ch, but "outside" more easily avail in lv 20:06:52 http://osm.org/go/0wJddJkGJ-- Riga's old town, mapped nicely with lot of eathing places 20:07:12 #chair h01ger 20:07:12 Current chairs: Caroll h01ger 20:07:18 gaudenz_ch: right. That's the difference between an in-city and in-nature bid :) 20:07:31 * bdale has eaten well in .ch, knows nothing about the food in latvia first-hand 20:07:32 #save 20:07:33 gismo_ch: to be honest we have to tell them that there is no bar in the village... the closest one is about 5km away... 20:07:35 ...And I think the same will be true for the next point: 20:07:38 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity 20:07:46 This covers both availability of cheap enough reasonable accommodation for us to sponsor, and good enough accommodation for people who e.g. want their own private space. 20:07:55 gaudenz_ch: ah, true, I forgot that (and sorry to the others) 20:08:00 #info the ch bid will have "inside" good food, so not a total win for lv? 20:08:07 pecisk_lv, and I know for fact that there are more places that are not on that map 20:08:15 bdale, we have cultural mix of cuisines, and we sure love tasty food 20:08:18 yes, .ch has what seems like a very good housing plan in that it's all at one facility, but lv has a range of options that cater well to different attendee needs 20:08:22 aigarius_lv, then map them please there :) 20:08:23 what does 'inside' food mean here? 20:08:34 pecisk_lv: I have no doubt, just no personal experience! ;-) 20:08:37 aigarius_lv: I guess they mean sponsored/on-site 20:08:43 aigarius_lv, the food provided by the ch local team? 20:08:48 aroundthfur: would that mean that the lv bid has inside bad food ? 20:08:50 aigarius_lv: yep, this is what I meant 20:09:14 yes, inside food means sponsored / group meals .. outside means going to resturants in small groups, etc 20:09:16 (please understand if I'm a bit too terse here - I'm reading, copying, writing in several places at once) 20:09:16 ultrt, no, just pointing that there will be variety of foods in ch also 20:09:31 #chair gwolf 20:09:31 Current chairs: Caroll gwolf h01ger 20:09:39 h01ger: thanks, redundancy is good 20:09:40 for accommodation, both are fine for sponsored, I'm a bit concerned about the Swiss option for non-sponsored people who don't want to be in dorms/tents 20:09:50 the 'inside' food in LV is the catering service of the university that has served conferences of up to 500 people before and is right there in the basement of the building, they are very flexible on our needs too 20:10:01 Ok, for both teams: We have a question on how vegan-friendly are your places and arounds 20:10:07 and surroundings 20:10:12 moray: agreed for the weakness of non-sponsored ppl not wanting to be in dorms 20:10:16 and that service is where I eat every day - it's good 20:10:17 * h01ger suggests a break after topic priority list 20:10:27 moray: how many of them do you expect not to have their own / rented car? 20:10:36 gaudenz_ch: almost all? 20:10:52 gaudenz_ch: we usually have some poeple that prefer staying at a better hotel than what we provide 20:10:59 there are a couple vegan-only restorants in Riga and most places offer vegan options 20:11:02 and I don't recall them renting a car so far 20:11:05 gwolf: 'Le Camp' director assured us that there will be food for any kind of our desire (OK, let it put it nicely) 20:11:06 historically, most folks at debconf use public transit to arrive/depart and rented cars are scarse 20:11:18 gwolf: which means vegan/vegetarian food will not be a problem *inside* the venuw 20:11:24 It's just that if they can afford swiss hotel prices renting a car may be not that much of a problem... 20:11:26 we are talking about food and accomodation, at same time 20:11:33 how vegetarian friendly is your country as a whole / on average? more like india or more like bosnia? ;) ie does a "average fast food place" have something else for veggies than fries? 20:11:35 Caroll: apparently :/ 20:11:39 #info vegan/vegetarian foods available in both venues 20:11:45 gaudenz_ch: a good point 20:11:54 h01ger: more like India 20:12:05 ok, stop thinking about food 20:12:11 it's only lunchtime in my timezone ;-) 20:12:15 hahaha 20:12:18 h01ger, as I said Latvia i culturar mix, so there's lot of veggies stuff around there 20:12:18 * bubulle is anyway concerned that people hosted outside the main place have such a strong influence on the decision 20:12:20 on to lodging 20:12:31 agree that Latvia has more options for lodging, right? 20:12:51 #info Latvia has more lodging options 20:12:58 gwolf: agreed 20:13:02 On to the next point. 20:13:03 7. presentation facilities 20:13:03 * h01ger thinks a debconf+camp with camping in summer is awesome! 20:13:12 Are there already presentation facilities, or can we easily add those? 20:13:29 since Debconf is a business trip for me, I *can* stay pretty much anywhere .. I *prefer* to stay in the main housing venue when possible because it helps me be more connected to the event 20:13:37 #save 20:14:17 Well, it seems moray is not around 20:14:22 I don't really know what this point means ;-) 20:14:26 gwolf: we have to add whatever we need, what is already there is not so much 20:14:28 h01ger: maybe it's videoteeam-related? 20:14:34 I think it means screens, projectors etc. 20:14:37 gwolf, 7. presentation facilities 20:14:38 Are there already presentation facilities, or can we easily add those? 20:14:40 oh, there he is 20:14:48 we traditionally add them ourselves 20:14:52 well, there is everything we need in LU, even some video stuff 20:14:53 gwolf, maybe if the venue is equiped /can be equiped in time with everything needed? 20:14:54 but it's a positive if they're all already there 20:15:05 and some venues do *not* allow you to put your own 20:15:19 moray: the big room has a screen, already, but the smallest room around not 20:15:32 LU has video projectors in all large auditoriums 20:15:44 I guess lv wins on this. In ch we have to do it on our own, but it's not difficult. 20:15:48 gismo_ch: Screens do not worry me too much, but projectors do 20:15:56 gwolf: I have a projector ;-) 20:16:05 right, toy office projectors don't work for big rooms 20:16:10 #info i seriously doubt that riga has better lodging if we can mix camping+housing at le camp 20:16:11 ohh and screens too 20:16:13 Do you suggest (for .ch) renting them? Do we have some? Ok, we have some (functional/good ones?) 20:16:27 h01ger: we can get back to discussing later on... Lets move on. 20:16:31 sure 20:17:08 So, we agree Latvia has a better standing here? 20:17:10 h01ger: (we're off accommodation but) each year some proportion of people *do* ask for single/double hotel rooms, from us or elsewhere, we can decide that's worth losing, but it's real 20:17:13 this question came up years ago when we had a bid located in a venue that required we use the stuff they provided at an exhorbitant rate .. so it becomes something to watch out for 20:17:14 gwolf: as I said, I have one (Epson EMP-something), but the others should be rented or asked to universities, I guess 20:17:14 h01ger: camping + housing are 2 types of option, while riga has a whole range of hotels/hostels, so I believe it does. 20:17:17 gwolf: I'm quite positive that we'll be able to lend everything that Debian does not already have from sponsors in .ch. 20:17:20 #info lv bid already has almost everything set up in the venue, while we need to set up everything ourselfs for the ch bid 20:17:52 #info Latvian bid has the presentation facilities all set up 20:17:59 8. travel logistics 20:18:05 Is the place easy to reach? Can it quickly be reached from an international airport? 20:18:42 and here apparently Switzerland is easier for most. Although there is the additional train/transport. 20:18:49 If we consider RIX an international airport, then it is 20 minutes by public transport (1€ ticket) or 15 minutes by taxi (10€) 20:18:56 30 min with bus, 15 - 20 min with taxi (as far as I remember) from airport 20:19:04 ok, 20 - 30 min with public transport 20:19:05 right -- RIX is like Edinburgh I guess for category 20:19:08 riga looks easy enough to get to, 3 flights from where I live 20:19:12 cheap flights from random set of European places 20:19:20 Switzerland has a long journey afterwards 20:19:20 aigarius_lv: how well is RIX connected with direct inter-continental flights (especially brasil, USA, mexico) 20:19:22 a debcamp with 50-100 geeks camping in summer with wifi (and conf rooms and showers and food served nearby, mind you) is totally different from previous debconfs. 20:19:27 I think that RIX being international airport is quite strongly balanced by it being harder to reach than Zurich or Geneva 20:19:43 gwolf: 'Le Camp' is at 2h from GVA and 3h from ZRH, both by public transports (train + bus) 20:19:50 i dont expect even the majority to camp, but still this can be awesome for all 20:19:56 my route to riga would likely be via FRA 20:20:07 ultrt, not great. there is one flight to New York. But there would be better luck looking for flights via Helsinki, for example 20:20:15 ultrt: from Latin America, you have to connect at an European hub for both destinations. For Mexico, at least, getting to .ch is cheaper - But that's just my particular case AFAICT 20:20:32 bubulle: we saw some inverse correlation in the past between travel time from the airport and number of attendees 20:20:32 moray: there is a long journey afterwards, but, again, in a natural environment 20:20:46 moray: and it is similar to DebConf11 FWIW 20:20:49 * bubulle is fairly sure that the cheapest route to RIX from about anywhere is a non direct one. Including from Europe 20:20:50 #save 20:21:04 GVA would also be 3 flights for me 20:21:06 I'm worried about the distance, gismo_ch 20:21:14 in case of an emergency 20:21:22 So, is this a near-tie between LV and CH again? (too different conditions) 20:21:24 moray: to be fair in that sense dc11 was particularly bad 20:21:33 oh, Caroll's point can be interesting (: 20:21:34 Caroll: What case of emergency? 20:21:34 bdale, might be more effective to switch to train sooner 20:21:36 we'll have to run 100km to reach the next big city, right? 20:21:38 Caroll: (seriously) 20:21:38 so for.ch it is easier to reach the airport, but harder to get to venue from the airport, while for .lv it is trivial to get from the airport, but it is a hop further off for most people 20:21:42 near-tie is fine by me, not lv >> ch 20:21:45 two hours of swiss transport and 2 hours of bus passing a border are quite different 20:21:57 h01ger: possibly .. particularly because I really like trains 20:22:01 Caroll: everything serious in .ch is done by helicopters, either to Lausanne, Genève or Zürich 20:22:03 gaudenz_ch, a medical one, for example 20:22:09 and don't get much of them here in co.us .. 20:22:29 Caroll: We have hospitals all over the place, at least one in Yverdon and Neuchatel. 20:22:31 #info Regarding travel logistics, given they are such different settings, we have another near-tie 20:22:31 right, but this seemed to be train + bus + walk? 20:22:35 * h01ger only heard swiss trains are awesome. never took one. 20:22:42 not train to venue 20:22:42 and helicopters if relly needed. 20:22:46 9. accessibility 20:22:51 moray: for .ch? 20:22:52 (but knowing ZRH i have all reasons to believe that) 20:22:52 Accessibility of the working spaces is vital. We can arrange some minor work in advance if something isn't ready though -- is everything already accessible in the proposed venue, or if not how much is needed to fix that? 20:23:10 In case of a medical emergency you'll be in a major university hospital in less than 30 minutes. Guaranteed! 20:23:28 LU venu has a special elevator fitted in for wheelchair access and there is at least one wheelchair student studying there 20:23:54 yeah, and I have studied with him :) 20:24:14 From what we have read, and from the importance we put in the "accessibility" point for so long, I think we will have another tie here... But please prove me wrong 20:24:18 we shouldn't worry only about wheelchair accessibility 20:24:32 wheelchair, blind, dangers for hearing-impaired, ... 20:24:46 * bdale can get to ZRH with only 2 flights, there appear to be direct flights from Chicago that would work well 20:25:01 * gwolf has to disappear for two minutes, boss calling 20:25:06 yep, and I give a stronger point to ch for blind-ppl friendlyness here (advantages of a single place) 20:25:08 h01ger, Caroll: Please fill in! 20:25:14 I have wlked the sidewalk from venue to the hotel and there sidewalk ramps are in perfect condition. The hostels do not have wheelchair accessibility, so people in wheelchairs will have to be hosted in a hotel. THe hotel has specially built rooms for that 20:25:35 gwolf, ack 20:25:47 bubulle: I should admit that we checked mostly for wheelchair accessibility, but I would be surprised there will be any problem for other kind of disabled people 20:26:16 I agree that both bids seem to have adequate accessibility, but that the swiss option with everything at one venue not in a city center with the attendant traffic concerns, etc, might have a slight edge 20:26:55 walking from the hostel or hotel to the main venue would be a challenge for a blind person, even though the trafic lights have the sound signal 20:26:56 is there appropriate accommodation for disabled people in Le Camp? sorry if I forget reading this somewhere 20:26:59 what about lodging for accessible concerns in swiss bid? 20:27:08 well, I shared aroom with a blind person at DC9 and witnessed the same person at DC10 and the single place option was definitely an advantage for him 20:27:28 I guess for at least one attendee we'd want a private room and special bathroom 20:27:52 moray, bdale: there are rooms for disabled people, including bathrooms and toilets 20:28:00 good 20:28:26 another tie? 20:28:27 moray, bdale: with escalators, BTW 20:28:28 * bubulle ranks ch first here 20:28:42 I rank ch first 20:28:42 what about accessibility of main transport to the venue? (busses, for ch?) 20:28:44 although one place for everything is a better option 20:29:04 ultrt: private vehicle likely in both bids for at least some attendees 20:29:26 ultrt: usually the transportation system is disabled-person friendly 20:29:34 bdale: but then private vehicle would be a lot more effort in CH than in LV, due to the distance, correct? 20:29:39 ultrt: we need to tell them beforehand 20:29:41 #info accessibility: slight win for .ch though .lv is also well suitable 20:30:21 * gwolf is back 20:30:37 ultrt: maybe .. there are many variables here. I can say from personal experience that having someone local pick you up at the airport is a real benefit when needed 20:31:18 shall we have a 10 min break now that gwolf is back and the prio list is through? 20:31:20 #save 20:31:28 if you opt for a 10€ taxi, they provide a consierge service in the airport :D 20:31:33 * bdale also has a new-found preference after last year for not having to cross borders between the airport and the venue, but we digress 20:31:43 yes, some breathing is much appreciated. 10 minute recess starts NOW 20:32:00 * bdale has a cat in his lap, so will not be moving 20:32:28 thanks, gwolf 20:32:29 bdale, same 20:32:37 h01ger: unless ppl cannot really catch up with the traffic I'd avoid the break, mostly because it's getting lateish :) 20:32:39 #topic 10min break til 20:43 20:32:40 * gwolf has a penguin(-shaped mug) on his hand, so I'll stay here 20:32:47 but relaxing a bit the tension is good. 20:33:03 ultrt, as gwolf said: a bit relaxing 20:33:20 I'm going take some chocolate :D 20:33:21 get a tea, some music. 20:33:42 * ultrt would like dinner... 20:34:12 ultrt: oh, no dinner before the meeting? beginner's mistake 20:34:16 :) 20:34:34 moray: it was too early :) 20:34:37 moray, i seemed to have forgotten that rule too! 20:34:50 ultrt: right, I learnt to eat early before these meetings though 20:35:01 as even if I wasn't hungry, I would be by the end 20:36:47 moray: for me it would be just *wrong* to have lunch that early. I still expect to be able to have lunch before 15:30 (which is a bit late-ish) 20:36:53 moray: fair point :) it was just a bit of a complicated day (traveling and such) but will catch up. hopefully. :) 20:37:37 gwolf: what's the time for you now? 20:38:01 14:38 20:38:02 * bubulle eats more cheese 20:38:10 bubulle: that's so typical of you... 20:38:23 bubulle: and wine? 20:38:27 ooohhhh cheese would be nice 20:38:52 oh ok, so dinner by 22:30 for me... can do, if I manage to get there on time :) 20:39:23 * gwolf has a Maure cheese waiting at home, nicely aging a bit 20:42:22 * bubulle just finished a Mont d'Or 20:42:45 ok... We are finishing the break 20:42:48 * bdale polishes off some left-over chicken enchiladas his wife made 20:42:57 #topic Discussion 20:43:12 So, I'll open the channel to all of you, and we will have 10 minutes for general discusion 20:43:57 After those 10 minutes, we will moderate the channel again, try to reach consensus in 10 more minutes 20:44:09 and failing to achieve it, we might vote afterwards. 20:44:13 So, people, fire! 20:44:24 has the Swiss team given any though/estimates on costs and options for formal diner and/or daytrip? 20:45:16 aigarius_lv: no, I think we'll think about this once it's clear how tight on money we are. 20:45:17 aigarius_lv: no. there are many options (dinner on a lake ship, toward the alps, ...) but not yet costs 20:45:53 In the worst case we'll have no formal dinner and a datrip at basically no cost (easily possible from vaumarcus). 20:46:08 right, those don't matter for the decision IMO 20:46:23 how sunny/couldy/rainy is there in Alps? 20:46:25 a "formal dinner" could be a barbecue on air 20:46:27 I will note that the latvian day trip plans sound really fun, though 20:46:35 right, they are nice goodies - although they *do* drive the proposed money ~€15000 down for Latvia 20:46:42 cate_ch: I'd really like that! 20:46:43 (as they did include it in their numbers) 20:46:47 I am only saying that because after estimating costs here, we were quite surprised on how expensive it is to move, feed and entertain 300 people ;) 20:46:51 btw, this is Cesis, my native town http://photo2.poga.lv/photos/0608/0811/alvis58/2055085182_b.jpg 20:46:56 yes, and we can't just go hiking for day trip 20:47:18 I'm still concerned about the significant number of people who want a single/better-quality room, and how will will work with Le Camp 20:47:35 it would be great if there was a proper hotel round the corner :/ 20:47:41 yes 20:47:52 My personal preference (which I try to listen to as little as possible) is to have everybody together in one isolated place 20:47:58 the situation in HEL where most folks were in dorms but there was a very nice hotel maybe 200m away was very nice 20:48:08 But on this topic... Many people prefer the noise and fun in the middle of the city 20:48:29 I'm just concerned that a lot of people won't come, when the only really supported option is 6-8 person dormitories 20:48:31 moray: there is not, but there is a better option at 20:48:45 ...so (partly answering to moray) I cannot say if either venue is better on that point alone 20:48:49 I just think that is difficult to keep 300 people happy being isolated for 10 days 20:48:58 moray: I agree but building one in 1 1/2 years is out of scope even for switzerland. 20:48:59 Vaumarcus' Castle has _one_ extraordinary double-bed room though. 20:49:10 Odyx_Mobile: right :) 20:49:40 moray: I count around 5 single rooms and 20 double rooms 20:50:02 cate_ch: it's a lot more than 5 (and more than 25) who have wanted this kind of thing 20:50:04 cate_ch: where did you find the single rooms? AFAIK there are no single rooms. 20:50:04 i'm sold. (not only because nature and stuff but also because swiss and trying to get all those sponsors for dc12, 13 and longer. i'm sorry about the economic crisis but i want to run a easy debconf. and a nice one too. and dc15 is riga would also be cool, or? 20:50:04 after years of rather somewhat uneasy debconfs, i would love to have an easy one. and true, swiss localteam can also go crazy. 20:50:15 cate_ch: aqnd indeed, I was told there were none before 20:50:28 I am tending to side towards riga... But I'm still very much middle-groundish 20:50:45 for me the most important thing about DebConf is the people 20:50:47 gaudenz_ch: http://www.lecamp.ch/visite.php?lang=fr# click on "Zwingli" building 20:50:51 h01ger: right, we could get more sponsors in Switzerland. But we need only half ot the money in Latvia 20:51:08 so I'm very concerned if this lack-of-nearby-hotel might mean people don't come 20:51:10 the only real downside i see in le camp is "not so optimal accom for people wanting privacy but no camping".. 20:51:28 I am tending to side towards ch, mostly, though I very much understand the weakest points it has 20:51:29 gwolf, but latvia has almost no local sponsors :( 20:51:30 I don't really care much about people going out to the city, but the Riga option is more flexible to accomodate any different needs - And there are always some different needs... 20:51:36 aroundthfur: right 20:51:42 how far is the closest hotel? 20:51:43 aroundthfur: I'm not hard-decided on anything 20:51:45 gwolf, i absolutly expect matching the .ch budget in .ch to be easier than matching the .lv budget in .lv 20:51:49 cate_ch: You are right. 20:51:55 lucas: from wiki, 10 minutes driving in a private car 20:51:57 sadly 20:52:02 I'd _LOVE_ to have it in the nature 20:52:13 aroundthfur, we can't promise local sponsors, but situation changes in economics could bring us one or two, we just don't know for sure 20:52:30 I think that I am *very* *very* much influenced by the perceived strength of ch local team and the feeling of SPOF-like team for lv (no offense intended at ppl other than aigarius_lv ) 20:52:32 I think it boils down to a matter of personal taste between the campsite on the lake and the city centre with the university, where both have in themselves natural advantages and disadvantages. all other hard facts seem to balance each other out 20:52:39 but then again, I should not decide giving more than 1/300 to my personal preferences. And we have received some criticism in the past for choosing hard to reach places 20:52:49 pecisk_lv, i wasn't implying anything other that what you said. i know situation can change! 20:53:15 "some criticism" is a nice understatement 20:53:18 gwolf: like I say, I'm just concerned it will be rather polarising amongst potential attendees 20:53:26 * h01ger hates it making this crisis+money comments but i've seen so many debconf budgets and sponsorship team shortages... 20:53:27 moray: precisely 20:53:51 hmm... The 10 minutes for "general arguing" are over 20:53:53 h01ger: Switzerland has potential sponsors, I'm still scared by the prices, though 20:53:56 so, I'll moderate the channel again 20:53:59 gwolf: but we have a train every hour from the two airports (but on nights) and many people could reach CH directly with train (CH is central) 20:54:14 how much money from local sponsors the swiss team think they might get? 20:54:18 ...and we should try to talk towards consensus now 20:54:22 and the airports are closed at night anyway. 20:54:54 cate_ch: I meant "being stuck away in the middle of nowhere for two solid weeks", not "it took me ages to get there" 20:55:05 I'm in the dark and running out of battery ... if my power down, I'll try be back asap 20:55:06 * bubulle is still surprised that a place a few hundred meters away from a swiss train station to be considered as in the middle of nowhere 20:55:11 ana: hard to say. I don't feel comfortable to give more concrete numbers than I gave at the beginning of the meeting. 20:55:17 gaudenz_ch: oka 20:55:20 Caroll: that's a bleak image of Brazil you are giving ;-) 20:56:07 bubulle, people dont know the swiss train system 20:56:12 So... just looking at the points we discussed... Of course, not all points have the same weight - Most important ones are towards the top 20:56:17 gwolf, I need to feed the monkeys too, everybody is in the carnival :D 20:56:20 bubulle: agreed 20:56:24 #save 20:56:29 bubulle: wiki says "It takes ~2 hours from GVA, ~3 hours from either ZRH or EAP (Basel), respectively, most of them by train, then a 30-minute bus and finally 20:56:32 a 10-minute walk: practical information (fr) from Le Camp website. 20:56:34 " 20:56:39 http://meetbot.debian.net/debconf-team/2012/debconf-team.2012-02-20-19.03.html has a summary, FWIW 20:56:42 bubulle: which implies *not* so close to a station? 20:57:01 bubulle: do you have other information? 20:57:18 Still, summing things together: Latvia won (on my hand-scribbled notebook) 6 points, Switzerland one, and there was one tie (weren't there two?!). But most "victories" were either by little, or on what I'd consider to be a nonvital or part-of-the-bid part 20:57:27 (i.e. this "being in the middle of the city" 20:57:28 ) 20:58:12 well, on the map, Le Camp is about 500m away from Vaumarcus train station 20:58:43 < cate_ch2> bubulle: I think they closed the station (but maybe few trains) and replaced with a bus 20:58:50 somehow my general feeling is that LV will actually be "easier" than CH due to being a more "experimented" setup (city centre+uni+...) 20:58:55 gwolf: and not all the points have the same weight 20:58:56 The main points for Switzerland are the local team, the economic situation of the country. the main point for Latvia is the affordability... I think the rest of it is all linked to the nature of each bid, I don't know if you agree with me... 20:58:58 bubulle: bus station! 20:59:00 bubulle: Trains don't stop at Vaumarcus anymore. you have to take the bus in Yverdon or Gorgier - St. Aubin, but I basically agree with your feeling. 20:59:00 h01ger disagrees, though :) 20:59:03 I think either place will work fine. 20:59:21 The main points for Switzerland are the local team, the economic situation of the country. the main point for Latvia is the affordability... I think the rest of it is all linked to the nature of each bid, I don't know if you agree with me... 20:59:26 * h01ger agrees with gwolf 20:59:32 I'm tempted by the swiss bid because of the very strong local team, and the different kind of surroundings. 20:59:35 I'm not sure economic situation is only a plus 20:59:35 gaudenz_ch: If you are bored or thirsty at night, can you find something nice in Vaumarcus? 20:59:46 i must say that latvia in my opinion has a better setup venue 20:59:52 Geneve-Vaumarcus, 1h31 train, one train every hour 20:59:53 I remember in the past it was nice to have everyone in the venue and nothing else for miles. 20:59:55 gwolf: +1 20:59:57 gwolf: no (and not really in any other non-big Swiss city) 20:59:58 moray: right, it's a much bigger challenge, as the price almost doubles... 21:00:01 and would translate "economic situation" with "lets try to get more long term debconf sponsors too" 21:00:11 to reduce the Single Point of Failure of our bid, if we win, the specific area will be delegated to specific people as detailed in our bid page 21:00:16 I inclined towards the swiss bid, it does not look so expensive for me. I think the local team is aware of the costs and they will make efforts to control that and I think they have a lot of more changes of getting local sponsors thst might balance it 21:00:19 gaudenz_ch: ah, ok, not obvious from CFF website 21:00:28 h01ger: we have always tried long-term sponsors. And we have some. But we cannot count on getting €50K from anybody 21:00:28 gwolf: I'm sure you'll find other bored and thirsty debconfers. 21:00:30 and bigger local team > * 21:00:48 but you have to stock your beer beforehand. No late night pizza place around. 21:00:52 gismo_ch: and little so even in big ones? ;) (ok, half kidding) 21:01:01 the local team difference... is very important 21:01:07 gwolf: right, that's more than our total sponsorship raise (non-govt) last year 21:01:08 ultrt, in that sense i actually i agree: we'll have interesting new problems at le camp for sure, just because we never had camping (as part of the usual stuff we'll have like always) :) 21:01:18 the fact I have been doing most of the work so far has been more because the work so far is much faster and easier when done by a single person, not a comittee 21:01:23 gwolf, if we just get 1-3 more, that be awesome 21:01:30 also, we already have several debconfs in hostel, hotel and university. let's try something new :) 21:01:40 gwolf: actually, I'm concerned about both the local teams, who both said they wouldn't help to fix stuff from the previous debconf 21:01:58 moray: not true, please 21:02:01 aigarius_lv: beware of that attitude... That's what led me to a situation where I had done everything and then nobody was in the loop and then... DC6 happened 21:02:03 gwolf: when that question was written, it was expected to be a rhetorical question 21:02:13 aigarius_lv, but you're still the only one really knowing debconf, or? and the only one we know... 21:02:20 gwolf, well aware of that 21:02:23 gwolf: and DC11 was very close to the same situation 21:02:50 h01ger, correct, we would have people going to DC12, naturally, so that would improve the situation 21:03:09 aigarius_lv, sure, that will be the least / start :) 21:03:14 h01ger: which "local" swiss businesses are global enough to be interested in sponsoring a debconf in another country/continent? 21:03:29 and if they are, could they not sponsor it already? what makes you think we'd have a big retention? 21:03:31 gismo_ch: you didn't say "won't help in any circumstances", but I was still amazed to see either team saying that 21:03:54 the fact that they're richer doesn't mean they'll give money the year after 21:04:21 gwolf, thanks 21:04:22 moray: I think we have to protect ourselfs and give priority to "our" debconf over doing work other should really be doing. 21:04:27 moray: agreed, but there is a difference in say "we will not help anyway" and "we will help if it benefits DebConf13" IMHO 21:04:33 also I have a suspect that the visibility of the event will be minimal for switzerland, while bigger for LV, so sponsorts might value that 21:04:37 But if time permits we'll of course help. 21:04:43 ultrt, the url posted here has some (credit suisse, other banks, etc) - and then, there needs to be an occasion to get in contact. debconf in .ch is such an occasion 21:04:47 ultrt: why minimal, if I may? 21:04:49 * karora wonders if any houses in the village are available for rental. 21:04:57 gaudenz_ch: still, we have often asked organizers of DCn to be organizers for DCn-1 to get a better view of what happens, what is needed 21:05:03 (aka: in ch nobody is going to notice debconf, while in lv it's in the capital centre, at least debcamp is bound to be noticed more) 21:05:20 of course, your involvement in DC13 would be bigger... But we need you (.ch, .lv, whatever) to be part of DC12 organizers 21:05:38 ultrt: only if the local team works on it .. it's very easy to be invisible in a city 21:05:38 gwolf: ? 21:05:42 I am with moray there, I was also surprised to see it was not clean "we are in" 21:05:55 gwolf: That's something else. I'm quite comitted to help on the debconf global team for debconf12 if dc13 will be in ch. 21:05:55 gismo_ch: I know :) But the answer to the rhetorical question still stands 21:06:02 gismo_ch: just because it's not happening anywhere "noticeable" and ch is used to quite more "visible" events (davos&c) 21:06:05 ultrt, i wouldnt say that it will unnoticed in .ch (not at all, also lots of countries are close), but for the free software scene in eastern europe it would definitly be a great(er?) event 21:06:13 gwolf, we have worked with aigarius_lv on several projects and we can do the lifting for most of org things if necessary 21:06:43 pecisk_lv, carefull! 21:06:56 i know from experience that it's easier said than done that way! 21:07:45 aroundthfur: and here you are working with us, and I expect you continuing to! 21:07:59 gwolf, i will ;) 21:08:14 just saying two ppl isn't enough! 21:08:22 right 21:08:22 where are we now? ie when is this over? 21:08:29 this topic 21:08:33 heh, we are... avoiding to vote, it seems 21:08:34 I am confident in my team being able to work on the event and be able to complete if I am hit by a bus a month from Debconf. Maybe not if I am hit by a bus tomorrow, however. 21:08:50 gwolf, to decide, me thinks 21:09:01 but I think we have all read what we will read 21:09:11 and going on will just lead us to walking in further circles 21:09:13 ack 21:09:15 #topic DECISION 21:09:21 ie, me suggests that we first make a "informal vote" 21:09:21 we do have 7 people commited for the whole workload, not just two 21:09:29 aroundthfur, well, from my expierence these things are fun. Dealing with some screwed up goverment projects in another hand - ugggh 21:09:59 pecisk_lv, right, i am just saying, not implying you can't do it :) 21:10:21 or do you really think everybody now should either say .ch or .lv and then we count and then meeting is done+over? 21:10:42 I find it hard to have a sound decision 21:10:49 both options are very strong IMO 21:11:04 gwolf: agreed, both options have very strong points 21:11:08 but... Yes, I think we can try and do h01ger's way 21:11:18 The thing is, we are not choosing between two comparable things 21:11:22 agreed, too. I think that there is no bid I would really dislike 21:11:23 I, too, find this a more difficult decision than in the past because we have two plausible proposals that are very different in character 21:11:28 we are choosing between two different natures for DC13 21:11:29 both have many strong aspects, for me it's more important to support all types of attendees than do what we individually prefer, so I have a decision of my own 21:11:46 gwolf, my suggestion would NOT be to do like i described at 21:11 (the lastr thing i said here) 21:12:25 moray, to you think one of the two doesnt support all? 21:12:29 moray: I understand your logic, and it would be easy to agree with, but I also care a lot about the focus being on making Debian itself better, and that leads me to like the notion of fewer "distractions" 21:12:31 h01ger: informal vote? Non-binding vote first? 21:12:32 well enough 21:12:36 gwolf, yes 21:13:02 +1 for non-binding vote 21:13:08 * karora currently has a weak preference for .ch 21:13:09 Ok, so please all committee people, state your vote now. Nothing will come out of it :) 21:13:12 * h01ger thinks bdale brought up a very good point 21:13:18 * gwolf has a weak preference for .lv 21:13:32 * h01ger has a preference for .ch 21:13:34 Latvia (although I like many things in the Swiss bid) 21:13:36 * ana has a preference for .ch 21:13:36 * bubulle has a preference for .ch (may develop if needed) 21:13:54 * Caroll has s preference for .lv 21:14:07 * ultrt has a preference for .lv, but is definitely happy to go to the .ch option too :) 21:14:20 forgoodnessake... 4 vs 4 so far 21:14:23 this is just unfair 21:14:30 marga is missing 21:14:34 marga: marga !!! 21:14:35 gwolf: I think you did it in purpose ;-) 21:14:36 gwolf: as you said they were two very strong ones 21:14:42 * bdale is pondering 21:14:47 #info it's frustrating to have two great and so balanced options 21:14:48 it's fair that preferences are even-ish 21:14:51 gwolf: you = the decisioners ;-) 21:15:01 ana: marga has not been part of the meeting, sadly... 21:15:32 so we are ten people on the comitee, but marga is absent? (and bdale pondering) 21:16:20 #save 21:16:28 caroll: are you caroll_ ? 21:16:35 gwolf, yep 21:16:39 at this point: is there any more info we could use to make the decision clearer? (aka: to send back the teams to investigate)? 21:16:41 Caroll, http://meetbot.debian.net/debconf-team/2012/debconf-team.2012-02-20-19.03.log.html has the log 21:16:42 * bubulle is still nnot pondering because having hard times buying moray's argument 21:16:44 sorry 21:16:58 #info so we are ten people on the comitee, but marga is absent? (and bdale pondering) 21:17:02 #save 21:17:13 I would like to know if there is short-term rentable housing in the villages near the .ch bid 21:17:30 karora: a first research I tried showed none 21:17:43 so, is there anybody with a _strong_ (rather than weak) preference? 21:17:45 karora: I can ask, but not now 21:17:47 not in Vaumarcus at least 21:18:12 gwolf: mine is strong :) 21:18:15 bubulle: it's an interesting point. I'm quite happy to sleep almost anywhere, and I suspect our swiss friends will have great food for us... but in the past, the ability to at least eat away from the main venue was important to me 21:18:21 bubulle: 21:18:31 gwolf: I guess mine is strong, unless I get new information 21:18:54 If one had a car, how far to drive to the nearest place with restaurants from Vaumarcus? 21:19:10 if the swiss bid's facility were, say, a few km from a place that had a hotel or three and some restaurants, it would be a slam-dunk for me to be in favor of the swiss bid 21:19:18 karora: probably it should be less than 30 minutes, depending on the kind of restaurant you want 21:19:20 bdale: right 21:19:20 bdale: right. 21:19:26 karora: and IIRC the castle has a restaurant inside 21:20:05 bdale: I probably still remember my first Debconf (the one that triggerred everything after) where I actually never went outside of the venue. As a consequence, I always valued places where everything is at the same place a lot 21:20:10 so basically we like .ch but we're not sure the location is ideal (at least not everybody is convinced) :) 21:20:15 as it is, it feels like saying yes to the swiss bid has an element of "going all in" from the poker world... it seems like a fairly big bet to place on the orga team producing outstanding results. I think they can do that, but the pressure will be high 21:20:23 bdale: I think it's just a few km's. 21:20:29 and we'd prefer some nature nearer to more services, which in .ch would be doable 21:20:31 bdale, there's restaurants in every village around the lake, some very good 21:20:42 ok 21:20:50 bdale: indeed 21:20:51 bdale: FWIW, maps.google.com shows at least 5 hotels in less than 10 km away 21:20:54 .ch team: maybe we could investigate more options for location, addressing these? 21:21:05 bubulle: yes, I also most enjoyed Brazil's setting 21:21:06 bubulle, the first one I remember we slept on the floor of a school sports hall ;) 21:21:10 ultrt: define 'location' 21:21:17 its in le french part of le suisse 21:21:19 gismo_ch: that's very reasonable in a place where a rented car could be parked fairly easily at the venue 21:21:20 this seems to be the most contentious point of your bid 21:21:22 gismo_ch: venue 21:21:23 bubulle: and that leads me to think .ch would be great... 21:21:25 gwolf: in Brazil, I (and many others) *did* go out several evenings 21:21:46 yes, Porto alegre is a big city here 21:21:49 ...but as Ganneff said, I'm understating that some people have felt locked out being in isolated (or semi-) places 21:21:58 you can just get a cab and go out 21:22:13 ultrt: There are other similar camps in switzerland but none of them is as nice as Vaumarcus or available to us alone. 21:22:14 Right, but we could just stay in there and not iven notice. But... Being as far away from everything as Le Camp is... seems to me a bit too much 21:22:17 how much is a taxi from Le Camp to these restaurants? I fear a lot? 21:22:22 gismo_ch: it seems you have a great team, amazing opportunities for sponsorship, but half the people are not convinced of the venue (or better: the surroundings of the venue) 21:22:36 I'd consider Fiesch as similarly nice, but it's too big to rent the whole camp. 21:22:38 well, sorry to be a bit harsh (late, etc.) but it's not like we're organizing a student holiday party..:-) 21:22:40 gaudenz_ch: and anyway, we are past the point for checking a whole new bid 21:22:58 moray: I fear Swiss taxis will be expensive to look at. 21:23:00 ultrt: I am staying outside of this kind of discussions on purpose, because I was clear on the fact that we know how *different* is our bid 21:23:07 #topic DECISION is now running since almost 15min (Meeting topic: DebConf13 decision meeting) 21:23:21 or should i've said stalled? :) 21:23:26 moray: 'Le Camp' has a bus, FWIW 21:23:31 moray: but I do not remember the prices 21:23:33 #save 21:23:35 yes, bubulle , but I think that go out for beer and food help keep our sanity 21:23:54 gismo_ch: the part that's different in your bid is very compelling to me .. I'm just trying to decide if I can really live with the perceived limitations or not 21:24:03 bdale: thanks 21:24:15 gismo_ch: yes, it is different, and in a way that is both interesting to many and scaring to others :) 21:24:18 There's always, no matter what, people who think the food we provide is shit 21:24:24 indeed 21:24:25 which is its beauty of course, as well 21:24:36 and having them committed to that food for all that time is... too much IMO 21:24:46 to be completely open about it, I've also visited switzerland several times in the past but never been to latvia, so the "see some place new" instinct me wants the latvian bid to be great too 21:24:48 I don't care (that much) about not having luxury lodging 21:25:19 gwolf: I don't care much about it myself. though I'm not very keen on a 6-8 person room, either 21:25:19 I have a strong preference for food :p 21:25:25 bdale: if you want my opinion, I can drive my H-D to Latvia for a bit more than to Vaumarcus (and it will be my 4th DebConf by motorbike) 21:25:27 gwolf: especially not for 2 weeks 21:25:29 * h01ger wonders if we should do a vote now, so everybody gets to revote/resay and it looks less like bdale deciding 21:25:31 (actually, if I want any I have to leave *now*) :) 21:25:54 right... So, lets try to do a binding vote now 21:26:21 I think I am a stronger believer in .lv (although I'd still love to go to Le Camp) 21:26:26 h01ger: thanks .. I am completely uncomfortable with the notion of being the deciding vote, fwiw 21:26:26 * gwolf votes Latvia 21:26:37 * bubulle votes .ch 21:26:39 Latvia 21:26:39 * Caroll votes Latvia 21:26:49 * h01ger votes le camp 21:26:53 latvia 21:26:54 * ana votes .ch 21:27:02 * karora votes Vaumarcus 21:27:05 * bdale votes .ch 21:27:19 are we done? 21:27:32 5 to 4 for ch, it seems 21:27:32 #info yes we are done :) 21:27:34 Congratulations, to .ch team 21:27:37 Ok, so we are 5-4 for Switzerland, and thanks for h01ger and karora for making it harder on my tired brain to count votes :-) 21:27:41 congrats 21:27:41 yep, all 9 voted 21:27:48 This was a close one 21:27:49 Poor sods 21:27:50 gwolf: My pleasure :-) 21:27:55 Congratulations to the Swiss team! 21:27:58 congratulations to the .lv team, enjoy 2013! :-) and please think about running again! 21:28:00 And great thanks to the Latvian one 21:28:00 They were both great bids. 21:28:01 aigarius_lv: thaks 21:28:04 *_ch: Congratulations 21:28:04 thanks a lot everybody, and congratulations to the swiss 21:28:10 aigarius_lv: thanks! hope ting there in 2015 or 2014 =) 21:28:13 I hope to go to Riga in the mid-future thouygh! 21:28:13 .lv would love to visit Riga, please run again!! 21:28:16 aigarius_lv: so, I will count on you helping me to find some other excuse to visit latvia some day! 21:28:24 see you in ch (and managua before) 21:28:33 running now for food, but talk to you soon! 21:28:39 have a good $time-of-day 21:28:46 good luck & enjoy & merci bien to the swiss team! 21:28:50 please visit Latvia, so you have less fear for Debconf15 decision meeting :) 21:29:01 congratulations, .ch! 21:29:07 thank u everybody 21:29:07 night!! 21:29:08 really, congrats to the lv team. I have to admit I wouldn't have bet a single centime on aigarius_lv proposal back in August and you made it really really a great option 21:29:11 * gwolf can still make it 15:30 for somewhat edible 21:29:13 (well, 15:40) 21:29:25 that was a tight one 21:29:26 aigarius_lv: I'll hope for DC15 in Latvia, too. :) 21:29:47 and I hope the Swiss team can now find some great ways to work around the worries some of us expressed :) 21:29:47 * Tincho wants to see Latvia too 21:29:50 someone #endmeeting 21:29:50 * h01ger definitly too 21:29:52 thanks everybody. 21:29:53 congratulations to the ch team, lv i wish you all the best for dc15 :) 21:29:54 #endmeeting