18:05:13 #startmeeting DebConf global team meeting 18:05:17 Meeting started Tue Jun 5 18:05:13 2012 UTC. The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:05:17 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:05:17 * gwolf waves 18:05:34 Let's try to get through things quicker today 18:05:42 #topic Sponsorship (incoming) 18:05:51 We hope to have government money! 18:05:58 Anything to add on that, beyond what's on the list already? 18:06:04 yes! and tomorrow we will know more. 18:06:13 ok, so details to the list tomorrow? 18:06:18 we have a meeting tomorrow to confirm this 18:06:19 any other sponsorship (incoming) news? 18:06:20 yes 18:06:33 How is the budget looking now, if someone knows? 18:06:51 ok, but can we be sure we are no longer in red numbrs through this? :-} 18:06:58 nothing new besides that the possible internet sponsor declined 18:07:17 moray, we'll update the budget this week 18:07:30 much of it depends on tomorrows meeting 18:07:31 gwolf: I guess this needs to wait to after tomorrow for proper numbers, now 18:07:44 indeed 18:07:46 even if that's inconvenient for this meeting's discussion 18:07:47 and what about the consultants? Did the mail have some effects? 18:07:53 Were there any donations announced just to sponsoring@d.o after my mail to all consultants? Or can I get access to the tickets myself? 18:08:16 right. As a good part of this meeting. But anyway, do we have a rough number, or not at all? 18:08:19 I only got a few answers directly. Juging only from that it resultat in $500 to $1000 18:08:21 gaudenz: please join the sponsorship team and get access (you don't need to do lots of other work if you don't have time) 18:08:43 gaudenz: cate I can't see any donation/sponsor coming from consultants 18:08:50 gwolf, we haven't updated the budget... so no 18:09:06 ok 18:09:33 (but as soon as we have the information, we will have to act on several points we will talk about today) 18:09:36 ok, this will also make the next point shorter then, we need to wait for clearer details 18:09:43 gwolf: indeed 18:09:47 regarding government 18:10:00 don't believe them anything, get them to sign a paper they will give you that money 18:10:07 otherwise they won't do it :) 18:10:09 AbsintheSyringe, :) 18:10:16 AbsintheSyringe: very very right. 18:10:21 yes, we probably do that 18:10:25 right, though with governments even signed papers don't always help you 18:10:40 but it's very important to set out in writing what is *expected*, at the least 18:10:55 yep 18:10:56 otherwise the two side's views are likely to differ by accident 18:10:59 moray: right, if the don't want to give you money, a signed paper is not a guarantee 18:11:01 yes, we'll make them sign *something+ 18:11:10 I remember what happened on dc9 regarding that 18:11:20 and a paper helps you when dealing with other officiaials 18:11:23 officials 18:11:34 leogg, we can argue that we need this signed to put them in the right sponsorship cat 18:11:35 yes, that's right 18:11:36 saving you having to re-discuss everything many times 18:11:51 xamanu, yes, I was thinking of that too 18:12:00 and you don't have to specify certain amount, just make them sign something where they are saying they will be main financial sponsor or something 18:12:01 xamanu: it's ok to explain you just want to be clear on what is coming, too, that's not impolite 18:12:17 xamanu: for the "in kind" things like buses etc. 18:12:18 moray, in nicaragua it's impolite :) 18:12:31 blame the foreigners 18:12:36 leogg: for this I don't mean signed 18:12:41 yes, I guess the govt would become a platinum sponsor, most probably 18:12:55 AbsintheSyringe, right, we'll not specify amounts 18:12:56 leogg: just after the meeting, sending a "is this right?" question in response to a written version 18:12:57 the question is who from the gov will sign that... :) 18:13:25 leogg: or have it ready in the meeting and just fill in details there, and get them to check it 18:13:29 moray, yes... we must be very careful dealing with govt... you never know 18:13:32 moray: Is adding my name to http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Teams#Sponsorship_team all it takes to join the team? 18:13:33 leogg: of course 18:13:40 moray, right 18:13:55 gaudenz: someone needs to add you to RT/the spam list 18:14:04 (not me, and not really this meeting topic) 18:14:08 xamanu, guy who's on the top of the food chain in govt :) 18:14:15 prime minister would be great 18:14:18 anyway, I think we all agree here 18:14:27 the local team just need to see what they can do 18:14:28 not sure how "deep" you got in 18:14:29 and report back 18:14:38 yep 18:14:57 AbsintheSyringe: if we get the PM to sign anything in Nicaragua, we'd have to create the figure first ;-) 18:15:22 gwolf, well have approximate figure, but still have them sign it as "main financial sponsor" 18:15:26 leogg: also, if it's appropriate (i.e. if the request will please them) then ask about getting a govt respresentative to do a welcome speech (Debian Day and/or main conference) 18:15:56 moray, yes, we're already discussing that within the team 18:15:57 Government in .ni is known to be quite discretional... but telling them that your European partners are nervous might help somebody with deicsion power to sign... I doubt a high-up person would do it, but an "important minion" probably will 18:16:06 it would be for debian day probably 18:16:07 I remember talking here before I went back to PM to propose the amount we would need 18:16:23 gwolf: yes, this seems the right way to do it for me too 18:16:23 right -- it's important to try to get the "minion" contacts, so you can phone/email them with questions later 18:17:01 in my experience "minions" were too afraid to do anything on their own :-/ 18:17:07 anyway, we're still all agreeing, so maybe we should get to the next meeting topic for now 18:17:19 yes, let's move on 18:17:20 #topic Sponsorship (outgoing) 18:17:20 moray: +1 18:17:32 So, we can't really make hard decisions on this until we know the budget 18:17:40 But, we can decide the processes 18:17:46 moray: right 18:17:57 For food and accommodation approval, what has happened so far / what is in progress? 18:18:16 | Only accomm| Only food | food+accomm. 18:18:16 all OK | 3 | 1 | 92 18:18:16 some OK | 7 | 18 | 22 18:18:16 no OK | 1 | 2 | 12 18:18:32 My estimates on the team works 18:18:37 we are almost ready with that 18:18:48 The agenda note says "how/what change in penta, who send mail to non-sponsored persons" -- I guess we should send a polite message to "not OK" people telling them that they have not been selected for sponsorship 18:19:00 we started to work last week and we rated people 18:19:19 and turn them off in penta, but with a theoretical possibility for them to reply and justify their case 18:19:25 moray: the registration team or the sponsoring (out) team should contact the people? 18:19:30 what makes a person be "not OK", is it a defined criteria? (i.e. the person not known in Debian and not interested in helping in any way during DebConf, or..?) 18:19:38 cate: the registrationj team I think 18:19:40 completely unknown 18:20:01 gwolf: people with no results on a search engine with email + debian/free software 18:20:02 cate: whoever was doing the deciding, would be easiest, if they are willing to continue -- i.e. sponsorship approval team 18:20:23 n0rman: good. Of course, they *could* be reverted to OK, right? 18:20:32 gwolf: right, they could 18:20:37 good. 18:20:50 gwolf: right: I suggest we turn them off, and explain this to them, but allow them to respond if they choose 18:21:05 (specially if we are not so financially distressed - Of course, we still want to cover some travel reimbursement if we can, so this work still makes good sense) 18:21:07 the email should avoid suggesting they did anything wrong by *asking* 18:21:13 moray: we need to wait until tomorrow meeting to know what to do 18:21:22 moray: right. And they cannot just recheck the fields, a Penta admin has to do it 18:21:39 n0rman: well, if there are people for whom you couldn't find any connection, it would be ok to tell them "you didn't qualify" immediately, and allow them to respond 18:21:40 (penta admin includes many people, not just me the Penta DB admin) 18:22:05 n0rman: as if they have no connection shown, we should use the money for something else 18:22:21 (even if they have a connection but it is a silly one of course, like their girlfriend uses Debian) 18:22:45 * h01ger has some problems with his wifi and thus with going online 18:23:18 h01ger: ok. as we are waiting for money news, I guess we won't have many big decisions today 18:23:40 right, we're just delineating reality :) 18:23:46 but maybe we can kick the topic forward? 18:23:48 cate: so, are the checking-team happy to progress on this? 18:24:12 question: we should go ahead and tell the obvious NO's now? 18:24:15 moray: we are ok with the progress 18:24:19 moray: I think yes. 18:24:29 bremner: let's wait until tomorrow meeting, I would prefer 18:24:34 bremner: I would say so -- it's better to say "no" quicker and give them more time to respond 18:24:40 bremner: I think we should. 18:24:57 bremner: but, this is up to the team doing the work, if they prefer to wait a day 18:24:58 ok, can someone who knows meetbot mark that? 18:25:23 BTW after this meeting we have the sponsoring meeting 18:25:23 #info Sponsorship (out) team should advise people who have not been selected for sponsorship as soon as the team is ready 18:25:32 thanks 18:26:01 Now... Regarding the second subtopic here 18:26:06 #info At that point the relevant penta fields should be turned off. People who are not selected should have the chance to respond saying why they should qualify, but it's not expected that this will lead to many changed decisions. 18:26:18 n0rman, xamanu: (old topic): the goverment might be very happy to sigh a paper saying something ("good coorperation", more details, whatever) as its a good opportunity for PR! :) signing a paper is news (for the press)! starting to do what was agreed upon is again news! (thats how press+govt usually see these things) 18:26:19 Travel sponsorship. 18:26:24 I was requested to tell people whether we expected to have any travel sponsorship at all or not ASAP 18:26:34 Right. 18:26:41 Some people would cancel, or run to search for funding elsewhere 18:26:51 It's not clear to me if the new govt support gives us enough cash for useful travel sponsorship yet 18:27:06 Any opinions? 18:27:13 we started the rating. But we need the budget 18:27:14 so... As soon as we have news on the govt sponsorship, we need to announce whether we will have it at all, and a rough estimate on the amount to fund 18:27:15 it will if they pay for accommodation 18:27:16 Or is this also "wait until tomorrow" 18:27:26 yes 18:27:27 IIRC we needed around US$40K to *fully* cover the requests 18:27:34 Maybe we can already say no to few people 18:27:43 cate: that's sensible if the ratings are ready 18:27:43 gwolf, I think it's around 30K 18:27:44 gwolf: 29730 18:27:53 We have not yet considered requesting Debian money, right? 18:27:54 xamanu, thanks 18:28:10 * h01ger cheers sponsorteam (outgoing) people for their work! 18:28:40 gwolf: not in a meeting AFAICR 18:29:30 it would be good to have a backup from debian, so we could tell people now that travel sponsorship is covered and look later how much we need from debian, but max 30K not more 18:29:48 xamanu: If this query is right, it's US$45355: 18:29:52 even if we get Debian money, I wouldn't advocate that we just get it for everyone 18:29:55 select sum(travel_cost), sum(fee) from conference_person_travel join conference_person using (conference_person_id) where conference_id=6; 18:29:57 30k from debian is illusoric, i think 18:30:08 specially now that we know that we won't have sponsored internet 18:30:19 I would suggest telling low-ranking people already "No" 18:30:23 (I just cooked up the SQL on the run, so it might be missing stuff) 18:30:24 * h01ger thinks we should wait with this decision til tomorrow 18:30:27 but then 18:30:32 gwolf: i took it from http://munin.debconf.org/debconf.org/skinner.debconf.org.html#Pentabarf 18:30:33 maybe we can just now say "no" 18:30:40 * gwolf agrees with the most obvious "no" people 18:30:44 And yes, waiting for a decision on high-ranking ones, unless we already say "no" to everyone 18:30:47 well, s/can/have to/ 18:30:54 moray: in my opinion travel ratings are not quite ready; maybe by tommorow 18:30:55 but of course the sponsorship team should decide when and how to do this 18:30:56 I agree 18:30:58 this has changed within the last few days... 18:31:12 bremner: ok 18:31:13 travel ratings are not ready yet 18:31:13 so people have been made changes lately 18:31:14 h01ger: of course, I would not expect Debian to give 30K, but maybe if it was 10K, it could be a sizable chunk 18:31:27 gwolf: 10K might only be 4 or 5 people :/ 18:31:32 but req sponsorship is in 30630 18:31:48 xamanu: we can check later on where the data comes from and what I did wrong in my query then :) 18:31:58 moray: right, and many optimizations should be possible 18:32:03 gwolf, yes 18:32:08 we could ask this already.. 18:32:09 gwolf: ok :) 18:32:10 xamanu: ctually is around 38000 18:32:15 #info We're still not sure if we have money for travel sponsorship 18:32:20 +we probably should 18:32:48 h01ger: right, I'm not sure we should take that money, but we could ask how the idea of giving it is viewed... 18:33:16 s/giving/allocating/ 18:33:44 well, i think we should. given that donators give to improve debian (and used this as a reason not to give to debconf) and debconf clearly improves debian... 18:33:57 Anything more we should discuss today? 18:34:02 who will ask debian? 18:34:15 * h01ger would prefer not him... 18:34:24 h01ger: I can ask (Events hat on as well) 18:34:25 I could do it, although I'm usually money-impaired 18:34:32 I'm out tonight and travelling tomorrow, so better not me 18:34:33 gismo: I prefer if you do it :) 18:34:51 but if it has to be a delegated DebConf person, we can co-do it 18:35:00 #info gismo will investigate the option of allocating some general Debian money to DebConf travel sponsorship 18:35:10 gwolf: shouldn't matter as it's not a *request* yet 18:35:12 Damn; /me missed the meeting start; /me reads backlog 18:35:14 right 18:35:29 on to registration? 18:35:30 gwolf: np, am I not a DebConf person given that I am part of the "Travel Bursaries" team? (kidding) 18:35:32 #info This isn't a request yet, just finding out if money would be available 18:35:51 gismo: see the "delegated" word in my line ;-) 18:35:54 gismo: he means one of the official delegates, which is needed for some official purpose (but not this) 18:36:05 #topic Registration 18:36:15 gwolf, moray: thx 18:36:26 When are we getting people to confirm their attendance (or non-attendence)? 18:36:43 Before talking about deadlines, we have to request people to reconfirm 18:37:00 gwolf: no, the request needs to mention the deadline 18:37:12 so the deadline decision comes first :) 18:37:12 of course! But we have to define them together :) 18:37:12 gwolf: we need people reconfirm and select rrival/departures dtes 18:37:17 with a deadline 18:37:33 reconfirm and fill the missing items (a lot of people did yet set the arriving and departure date) 18:37:46 n0rman: right. I'll check if I can get Penta to require valid dates for accepting reconfirmation 18:37:55 #info gwolf will check if I can get Penta to require valid dates for accepting reconfirmation 18:38:04 cate/n0rman: ah, yes, I was forgetting that point 18:38:06 s/I/he/ and all that :) 18:38:09 do we need to define a date for reconfirmation 18:38:10 ?? 18:38:19 deadline 18:38:26 #info We need to get people to confirm (or not) soon, and we need to ensure they have valid dates etc. for that 18:38:27 n0rman: Yes. You reconfirm once you have *everything* ready for your travel 18:38:31 we should 18:38:33 n0rman: yes 18:38:35 so we can plan capacity, assign hotel rooms, etc 18:38:38 gwolf: Penta already refuses non-valid dates (at least I was unable to set 2012-06-30) 18:38:43 when do you need firm numbers for hotel rooms etc/ 18:38:44 ? 18:38:51 june 15th? 18:38:56 gismo: but it allows blanks 18:38:57 21th? 18:39:00 yesterday? :) 18:39:11 but to reconfirm, do we need to tell people "ok, you have money, you cn trvel"? 18:39:19 we probably need to give people longer than a week to do this 18:39:35 (phone, 1min) 18:39:40 n0rman: we should decide a travel sponsorship policy before the end of the confirmation period 18:39:57 n0rman: but, we can also deal with a few exceptions for special cases from that if we're still waiting then for enough money 18:40:08 not *many* people will be getting travel sponsorship in any case 18:40:16 june 18th? 18:40:23 moray: ok 18:40:46 is june 18th ok to reconfirm hotels? 18:41:12 I would say a day or two before the 18th to avoid the Monday 18:41:27 h01ger, yes, it should be fine 18:41:38 june 15th then? 18:41:38 e.g. deadline on Saturday, we actually let people fill it in on Sunday still until it gets shut 18:41:43 in 10 days 18:41:48 or 15th indeed 18:42:09 june 18th is ok to me 18:42:12 if it's 15th we might have one or two valid exceptions "I was offline all the time", but again, we can deal with those 18:42:13 sooner is better for us 18:42:21 yes 18:42:27 and for money questions in general 18:42:36 yes 18:42:42 leogg: right, but 18th is mondy, is ok, 15th is friday and we will contacto hotels til 18th 18:42:50 does anyone want to argue that 15th is much too soon? 18:42:51 * gwolf is back 18:42:57 n0rman: riht, but gives us the weekend to sort things out 18:43:02 n0rman, right,,, that's what moray said 18:43:25 when would we expect to have the bursariesteam give meaningful answers? 18:43:26 deadline on friday... and we give them a few extra days until monday morning 18:43:30 if no one thinks 15th is bad, we could go for that -- it means we would need to ask people to confirm *soon* though 18:43:31 reconfirmation should be after that 18:43:49 * h01ger thinks 15th is fine, though it puts some pressure on us 18:43:50 I agree it could be for the 15th (we are too late otherwise), but we have to rush that 18:43:56 which is probably also good, given todays date ;) 18:44:03 gwolf: the conference is quite soon now, I hear 18:44:15 gwolf: food and accomodation should be decided in a few days, if that is the question 18:44:25 can someone from the registration team organise emails for this? 18:44:30 some extra oressure won't hurt :) 18:44:41 we need (a) an email very soon saying the deadline to confirm 18:44:50 (text can be copied from a previous year) 18:44:57 right, but we should stll accept people to late-reconfirm if they are told they are granted travel sponsorship on the 14th afternoon. 18:44:57 and (b) individual status messages to everyone 18:45:06 gwolf, sure 18:45:07 I think travel rating can be finished until 10th 18:45:09 (+if) 18:45:19 saying what they have input so far -- to be sent a few days before the deadline 18:45:25 gaudenz: if so, I'm completely fine with it 18:45:30 (or one now, one just at the deadline) 18:45:36 moray: I can send emails in behalf of the registration team 18:45:37 after that it only depends on the available money. 18:45:38 but yes, we have to send the reconfirmation requests NOW 18:45:39 can we include that people update their travel information. it would be good to have better numbers on which dates people are arriving 18:45:54 n0rman, yay. 200 individual ones, obviously :) 18:45:55 #info Deadline for confirmation of attendence is 15 June 18:46:04 or one general? 18:46:08 #info Registration team should send out messages *very soon* to warn people of this 18:46:17 h01ger: individual makes people notice more 18:46:38 but, don't wait for that if it causes a big delay in sending 18:46:41 h01ger: we hve darst scripts :) I will try to adapt it :) 18:46:46 n0rman: great 18:46:47 n0rman, cool 18:46:58 So, we're done on this topic for now? 18:47:07 225 people with "attend" currently 18:47:24 ok, so on to talks team? 18:47:35 #topic Talks 18:47:37 Good 18:47:38 Status from the team? 18:47:43 So, the talks team currently consists of: 18:47:50 Gunnar Wolf 18:47:51 Daniel Kahn Gillmor 18:47:51 Joerg Jaspert 18:47:51 Blars Blarson 18:47:51 Andreas Tille 18:47:51 Luciano Bello 18:47:51 Micah Anderson 18:47:53 Tássia Camões 18:48:00 I last sent a mail to the team on the 29th 18:48:09 asking for input on how we should rate 18:48:17 (I won't go into too much detail here) 18:48:34 ...have got very little answer, however :( And the two answers I got were "I am probably unable to do much work" 18:48:44 So... Yes, we can start rating, but I would not like to 18:48:57 how many talk submissions do we have? 18:49:03 because we have not really agreed on what to rate on 18:49:05 h01ger: 58 18:49:30 We have agreed on some tracks, and IIRC 3 of them are viable already (plus at least one that's currently empty) (plus the non-academic events) 18:49:45 is there a rating system in penta you can use as well? 18:49:56 setup a doodle poll for a kickoff meeting? 18:49:58 yes, it's been there always 18:50:16 h01ger: I tried to get some stuff done by mail. IMO it's a bit easier than to get people to a meeting 18:50:29 but got no answer, and that's quite frustrating :-P 18:50:30 whatever works for you 18:51:01 This is not really as urgent as the other rankings 18:51:04 Anyway... We are still decently on time, DebConf-wise 18:51:05 right 18:51:06 gwolf, maybe blog for help on planet, to find someone to kick+form the team? 18:51:09 I mean, it's nice to have it ready for sponsorship decisions, but not vital 18:51:16 we usually try to announce a schedule one week before DebConf 18:51:21 (which is by DebCamp start) 18:51:26 * h01ger knows some people wait for the schedule to book 18:51:45 moray: right, but then again, we don't have enough talks to make it too much of an issue :( 18:51:50 * h01ger thinks your comments are too much... lowering the already low standard 18:52:01 we are at about ½ of the number of talks :( 18:52:07 h01ger: I know :( 18:52:16 gwolf: indeed, though lots of free slots for DebConf-period stuff is good 18:52:20 we're starting with the debian day advertising/promotion/media plan in two weeks, so we would love to have (at least part of) the talks scheduled by then 18:52:25 h01ger: in DebConf, we have *never* announced schedule with enough anticipation to allow for booking 18:52:28 so stop it ;) at least saying its normal+ok. its not. 18:52:39 leogg: DebianDay is independent of DebConf 18:52:45 gwolf, oh, yes 18:52:55 h01ger: I feel it normal - for our usual procedures 18:53:06 right, Debian Day talks are arranged centrally by Debian Day organisers, not part of the regular process 18:53:07 gwolf, so we should proceed to scheduled that when we're ready? 18:53:14 leogg: of course! 18:53:15 right 18:53:18 gwolf, i wont say anything now... ;) 18:53:21 anyway, seems there's not much to discuss here? 18:53:23 leogg: in fact I'll ask you for your schedule 18:53:24 thank you moray gwolf 18:53:30 as DebianDay is completely managed by you 18:53:31 :) 18:53:32 #info talks team is working, slowly 18:53:47 leogg, please also take care of debianday.org :) 18:53:50 #topic Venue status 18:53:52 (but yes, getting some pressure by y'all is welcome ;-) ) 18:54:00 Anything we need to know here? 18:54:06 h01ger, we will :) 18:54:07 (About the venue) 18:54:35 any news about the venue? 18:54:36 we haven't met with uca staff lately 18:54:36 is the eating space+installation more settled? 18:54:45 we're a bit worried about that 18:54:50 I think that was the main point regarding the venue 18:54:56 (oh, and the intarnetz...) 18:54:59 but I already requested a meeting today 18:55:03 leogg, give them a friendly call, just to say hi, how's it going... 18:55:21 h01ger, invite them to dinner,,, :) 18:55:28 ;) 18:55:41 #info Eating space still needs to be arranged 18:55:46 leogg, if you got nothing serious to discuss... cause all is good and prepared - why not ;) 18:55:59 so, they ISP that was going to give us sponsored internet backed down 18:56:02 (or maybe even if / esp. if ;) 18:56:06 leogg: invite them for dinner at... a location to be specified, in the parking lot ;-) 18:56:17 we're trying to get a quotation from them now 18:56:20 gwolf, *g* 18:56:24 to pay for the internet 18:56:27 tomorrow I have a meeting with networking in UCA to test the switch (yes, we have a 2960g-24tc-l) 18:56:30 leogg: last time I heard there were two possible ISPs, is that reduced to one or still two? 18:56:31 .oO( so we have no internet... what could possibly go wrong... ) 18:56:34 gwolf, :) 18:56:39 n0rman, yay 18:56:45 I think we will need some transcievers 18:56:55 h01ger: . o O (ma�) 18:56:56 moray, 3 actually. 2 backed down. leaving one 18:56:56 moray, it's reduced to none (sponsored at least) 18:56:59 n0rman: the people at the lab offered us the transcievers 18:57:00 #info Local team are still trying to get an appropriate uplink 18:57:07 and we will make a test tomorrowe, connecting all the rooms 18:57:10 h01ger: leaving one possible at all, or one possible sponsor? 18:57:25 * gwolf wonders if we can use 3G internet and get everybody a sponsored cell phone..? 18:57:26 leogg, all 3 possibly ip-sponsors backed down? 18:57:37 moray, no possible sponsor IMO... we still trying with the last one 18:57:52 but I doubt we get something significant from them 18:57:53 leogg, so one maybe still 18:57:58 apart from a discount 18:58:04 yep 18:58:11 ok, then start for asking for "how much" 18:58:14 grrr 18:58:15 h01ger: sponsorship will probably not be possible but all 3 are still in the game on providing services (payed) 18:58:16 leogg: usually governments can help in those areas, as they actually (at least here) own the infrastructure that's leased to the ISPs 18:58:25 #topic Hotel status 18:58:26 leogg: so it could be something worth asking the government... 18:58:26