20:00:18 <OdyX> #startmeeting DebConf team meeting - 20130228
20:00:18 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Feb 28 20:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is OdyX. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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20:00:35 <OdyX> MeetBot: pingall Meeting time !
20:00:35 <MeetBot> Meeting time !
20:00:35 <MeetBot> aliceinwire amaya AndrewLe1 aroundthfur bdale bgupta blarson brother- bubulle carnil cate Clint cpt_nemo dachenka dam darst dkg FBI fil fitoria fx Ganneff gaudenz gismo gregoa gwolf h01ger harmoney hug huntingbears jeremyb_ jimbodoors jvw Kaare KGB-0 KGB-1
20:00:35 <MeetBot> KGB-2 lilix luca lucas MadameZou madduck mangoderosa marga MeetBot mmgc84 moray msantana n0rman nattie nomada OdyX paulproteus rafw rmayorga sapphire schultmc sgran sSNS_ sunweaver taffit taffit_sud tatotat tiago Tincho tokkee vorlon wendar xamanu XTaran Y_Plentyn
20:00:35 <MeetBot> zlatko zumbi
20:00:35 <MeetBot> Meeting time !
20:00:40 <OdyX> there, sorry.
20:00:44 <cate> hello
20:00:45 * gismo is here
20:00:49 <mmgc84> jelou
20:00:58 <fil> hi
20:00:59 <OdyX> #info Agenda is there: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Meetings/20130228
20:01:09 <OdyX> someone volunteering for chairing ?
20:01:13 <XTaran> Hi.
20:01:16 <gaudenz> hi
20:01:19 <zlatko> hi
20:01:34 <moray> OdyX: it looked like you had taken that
20:01:37 * bdale is lurking
20:01:56 <OdyX> I'll happily chair if noone else wants.
20:01:57 <moray> OdyX: I would have otherwise :)
20:02:16 * Y_Plentyn applauds OdyX
20:02:24 <OdyX> #topic DC12 - Final Report
20:02:33 <OdyX> I'll start then :-)
20:02:42 * h01ger arrived home 10min ago and will not really participate, i might go afk anytime, etootired. have fun (and highlight me if needed)
20:02:52 <OdyX> #info OdyX proposal is "Release as-is, push to media.debconf.org, find a vict^Wvolunteer to chase the missing financial bits, release enhanced version later."
20:02:58 <h01ger> (from 3 days of travel...)
20:03:05 <moray> OdyX: I think that's what we decided before
20:03:43 <gaudenz> I spoke to lazyboy today and he promised to work on the finance part on monday.
20:04:02 <moray> right, but we decided to push out an r1 ASAP, from my point of view it's a bug that we didn't yet
20:04:14 <gaudenz> so maybe waiting another week might be worth it, but I know we have been waiting for too long.
20:04:32 <OdyX> okay, I'll push r1 tonight to media.debconf.org and add a link to the website if that's okay.
20:04:39 <OdyX> releasing is quite easy, soo…
20:04:42 <moray> yup
20:04:43 <OdyX> fine so ?
20:04:54 <gaudenz> fine for me, maybe declare it an beta or rc?
20:05:08 <OdyX> #todo OdyX to release rc1 report to media.dc.o
20:05:11 <OdyX> #save
20:05:19 <XTaran> gaudenz: "technology preview"! (SCNR)
20:05:35 <moray> haha
20:05:52 <OdyX> gaudenz: it'd be great to have a rc+financial until the end of next week. It's way overdue…
20:06:32 <gaudenz> I agree, but lazyboy only commited after the last meeting, so it's not his fault.
20:06:47 <gaudenz> and he even then said that he won't do it in february.
20:06:52 <OdyX> no fingerpointing intended, eh.
20:07:22 <OdyX> gaudenz: did you manage to get darst involved ? Or was that idea turned down already ?
20:07:39 <gaudenz> I did not try.
20:08:08 <OdyX> gaudenz: want to take the #todo for handling that part ?
20:09:05 <gaudenz> I'll just tell lazyboy to ask darst if he needs help.
20:09:24 <gaudenz> I think we should move to the next topic.
20:09:45 <huntingbears> e1th0r, hi :-)
20:10:06 <OdyX> gaudenz: okay, let's move.
20:10:22 <OdyX> #info gaudenz to see what can be done to get the financial part done.
20:10:29 <OdyX> #topic DC13 - Sponsoring
20:10:46 <OdyX> AFAIK status hasn't changed much.
20:11:15 <Y_Plentyn> how much do we have?
20:11:27 <OdyX> We started sharing the work on the Loterie Romande (institutional support) dossier, especially on preparing a scaled-up budget.
20:11:38 <gaudenz> 138 937 CHF
20:11:51 * Y_Plentyn nods
20:12:26 <OdyX> #info ~ 139k CHF confirmed
20:12:32 <moray> and the budget we submitted to them said we need how much?
20:12:39 <OdyX> moray: it's not submitted yet.
20:12:50 <moray> OdyX: ok, with the appropriate tense, ...?
20:13:29 <OdyX> moray: the idea is to justify the amount (which I'd rather keep sicrit for now) we want to ask for a "better DebConf".
20:13:59 <cate> does it include also debcamp?
20:14:00 <OdyX> moray: ~ + 25% budget afaik.
20:14:10 <OdyX> cate: it's not done yet. hug will be working on it soon
20:14:28 <OdyX> #info hug is going to prepare a bigger budget.
20:14:31 <OdyX> #save
20:15:08 <OdyX> I suggest to move to next topix.
20:15:12 <OdyX> #topic DC13 - Accomodation and pricing
20:15:22 <OdyX> (stop me if the rythm is too high eh)
20:15:39 <OdyX> gaudenz: meeting outcome ?
20:15:45 <moray> OdyX: nope, thanks for getting through topics
20:16:12 <gaudenz> We don't have a proposal yet.
20:16:13 <moray> I think we are waiting for new detailed proposals here
20:16:30 <vorlon> meeting outcome is that hug (IIRC?) and I each have an action item to write up fleshed-out proposals in the wiki
20:16:31 <OdyX> #info Waiting on enhanced/more detailed proposals.
20:16:34 <cate> yes, vorlon and hug have a new proposal
20:16:43 <gaudenz> #info vorlon and hug will write down their ideas into proposals on wiki pages.
20:16:58 <vorlon> I've squatted https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf13/Pricing/Strawman but haven't filled it out yet, it's still just a page copy with broken formatting :)
20:18:14 <OdyX> vorlon: I'm not sure if putting the title like that will help moving forward with the discussion (or I'm misunderstanding the "strawman" meaning)
20:19:03 <vorlon> OdyX: "strawman" meaning "strawman proposal", as distinct from "strawman fallacy"; i.e. that this is a proposal that people are welcomed to poke holes in
20:19:25 <OdyX> + I think the proposal as I understand it is quite different to many assumptions we've had for months.
20:19:52 <gaudenz> I don't think we should discuss the proposals here and now.
20:19:54 <OdyX> well, I shouldn't have started that discussion unless we want to have it as a team...
20:20:16 <gaudenz> Let them write down their ideas and then discuss (constructive) on list first.
20:20:20 <OdyX> ack
20:21:10 <OdyX> more on that topic?
20:21:31 <OdyX> #topic DC13 - Registration and "hacking week-end"
20:23:16 <OdyX> as I understand the status, the discussion on registration basically depends on the outcome of the accomodation and pricing discussion
20:23:30 <OdyX> but what is the status regarding the hacking week-end ?
20:23:49 <gaudenz> We should decide if we want to hold it or not on the date h01ger proposed.
20:24:06 <gaudenz> the proposed date is 5-7 April
20:24:09 <cate> I think that the penta should be done before the proposed date
20:24:30 <moray> we would like it done before that, yes
20:24:53 <gaudenz> I agree, but we have to decide about the week-end anyway.
20:25:02 <h01ger> cate, thats a different topic though ;) IMO we should do the meeting, so we can eitehr finish registration if we fail to do so before (which i think is quite likely), or do other useful stuff there
20:25:24 <gaudenz> from the doodle only ganneff and maxy&marga have not been to le camp before from those willing to attend.
20:26:02 <gaudenz> So far maxy&marga have not been involved in organizing DC13 if that brings them into the orgateam I think it's worth the effort, otherwise I'm sceptical.
20:26:03 <Y_Plentyn> me
20:26:18 <gaudenz> sorry missed you, thought you have been there before.
20:26:21 <OdyX> but you're in already :-)
20:26:28 * Y_Plentyn nods
20:26:42 <OdyX> a hacking week-end is anyway worth it, in or out LeCamp, no ?
20:26:55 <Y_Plentyn> I believe yes
20:27:21 <OdyX> so if that's not good for Le Camp, having one earlier would help getting the registration out of the door, no?
20:27:22 <gaudenz> Yes this is just about having it at le camp at the costs le camp has. Nothing against having a hacking week-end.
20:27:25 <XTaran> Y_Plentyn: You were at Le Camp before, weren't you?
20:28:02 <gaudenz> If the week-end is in .ch we could even do a daytrip to le camp to show the venue and visit mr. p.
20:28:17 <Y_Plentyn> XTaran: no
20:28:20 <h01ger> gaudenz, as repeatadly said: i think the costs of le camp for a weekend are laughable^wvery well justified compared the overall dc13 budget and even more importantly, the benefits of it
20:28:22 * gwolf1 arrives hurriedly and looks angrily at gwolf, so seemingly happy to stay at the office without activity.
20:28:33 <gwolf1> chairs: Please #save so I can read
20:28:36 <XTaran> Y_Plentyn: Ok.
20:28:37 <OdyX> finding a place for hacking sounds easy-ish given our respective jobs. hosting and finding a suitable date is the challenge.
20:28:45 <OdyX> #save
20:28:48 <OdyX> ^ gwolf1
20:29:04 <gwolf1> thanks!
20:29:22 <cate> gwolf1: how far are we to open registration? ;-)
20:29:37 <OdyX> we could move the whole thing earlier, do a first round of registration with few options "I'll come, I'll pay, whatever" and have a round of reconfirmations soon.
20:29:43 <gwolf1> cate: /me has stepped out of that department \o/
20:30:08 <gaudenz> did we suddenly change topic?
20:30:15 <gwolf1> OdyX: I'd strongly prefer to open registration with options for people to sensibly fill in
20:30:24 <gwolf1> gaudenz: oh, sorry, just answering. Shutting up.
20:30:30 <gaudenz> Cant we first decide about the week-end?
20:30:50 <OdyX> gaudenz: go ahead with proposals
20:30:53 <gaudenz> h01ger: if it's just to bring 1 person there I disagree.
20:31:07 <cate> gaudenz: I think we should check the two arguments together
20:31:10 <h01ger> gaudenz, me too but nobody wanted that
20:31:51 <h01ger> so whats holding off the decision? fear of spending a few hundred bucks?
20:31:56 <gaudenz> I think if we can have more non swiss europeans here the effort would be more worth it. So maybe extende the doodle to dates in may and hope that eg. moray is able to attend as well.
20:31:59 * fil was contemplating turning up to the w/e -- but had not come to enough of a conclusion to add myself to the doodle
20:32:12 <XTaran> gaudenz, h01ger: Am I right that you think the weekend as on doodle doesn't make sense for you?
20:32:14 <OdyX> fil: we need you too.
20:32:31 <gwolf1> gaudenz: there are two objects to this weekend: Getting together to further promote LeCamp (which is good, but IMO not indispensable), and working on registration-related bits
20:32:38 <cate> For reference: http://doodle.com/t6yiszrmb2yi9dzu
20:32:39 <h01ger> XTaran, it does because i think its best to have it in le camp and this is the best possible date
20:32:54 <gwolf1> ...I feel they are almost orthogonal. And for me, second part is much more important than first.
20:32:55 <fil> OdyX: thanks :-)
20:33:00 <h01ger> gwolf, i never thought it to further promote le camp
20:33:05 <h01ger> thats past
20:33:06 <h01ger> history
20:33:09 <OdyX> #info proposal is "hacking week-end in Le Camp, on 5-7 April"
20:33:20 <XTaran> *phew*
20:33:21 <h01ger> i think its good to _start working there_
20:33:29 <gwolf1> h01ger: whatever - we have a weekend and place decided, so no need to argue \o/
20:33:32 <OdyX> but we need people to work on registration before that.
20:33:35 <gwolf1> (late arrivers are always noisy
20:33:36 <gwolf1> )
20:33:43 <h01ger> which is also why i think a meeting in linuxhotel is useless, even if it saves us 500€
20:33:44 <cate> right, the 5-7 is very late
20:34:13 <gaudenz> gwolf1: To me the registration related bits were always a good excuse to have a f2f meeting. The real puprose is to show le camp to people that are important and have not seen it yet.
20:34:35 <XTaran> cate: And March 01-03 would be next weekend.
20:34:41 <XTaran> cate: And March 22-24 many can't come.
20:34:42 <gwolf1> right, although the amount of people to attend who are not yet familiar is small. But I'd be bikeshedding with that
20:34:47 <gaudenz> Why is registration so different that we need a f2f week-end for this? For everything else it's not needed either.
20:34:54 <OdyX> can we separate the questions ? Week-end there, yes-no ? Hacking week-end earlier, elsewhere, yes-no ?
20:35:09 <moray> gaudenz: *for registration* I think it is more efficient for people to just stay at home rather than spend a long time travelling
20:35:10 <XTaran> +1
20:35:16 <XTaran> (to OdyX)
20:35:17 <moray> but yes, it's a separate question
20:35:18 <cate> XTaran: I know, so I think it should not be planed for penta-registration, but as planing the DebConf (network and other stuffs)
20:35:34 <OdyX> gaudenz: there I disagree: being able to allocate hacking time is critical to get things done (at least for me)
20:35:38 <gaudenz> moray: that's why I insist that with the current proposal it's not well spent time and money.
20:35:39 <XTaran> cate: *nod*
20:35:50 <gaudenz> s/proposal/list of attendees/
20:36:09 <h01ger> gaudenz, let me repeat: its not to show important people le camp or promote but to give people working on registration at the place where we have these registration challanges
20:36:12 <gwolf1> moray: unless there is good network on the rail|bus|plane and we can hold meetings while everybody travels!
20:36:27 <Y_Plentyn> moray: I disagree. I at least tend to be much more efficient when together with a team
20:36:32 <moray> gwolf1: even in Switzerland there's usually bad reception on the trains
20:36:42 <h01ger> but i'm out. too tired for this atm. cu…
20:36:54 <gwolf1> h01ger: please stay for this topic
20:36:55 <OdyX> we also need people to get introduced to the system. And a f2f is good for the initial intro IMHO.
20:37:00 <gwolf1> as you are one of the most interested in it!
20:37:05 <moray> Y_Plentyn: if it's Swiss locals the travel time isn't too bad, it is inefficient for international people to spend a day travelling each way for a weekend if the point is to do hacking
20:37:06 <gwolf1> at least to get a f2f-date
20:37:47 <cate> moray: BTW Ganneff prefer to travel and hack instead of home+hack
20:38:03 <OdyX> same for me. home+hack is nowhere near efficient.
20:38:11 <OdyX> (for me, again)
20:38:12 <h01ger> gwolf, i'm too tired to convince people to see things they dont see. i've tried and i dont think more trying from me will have any impact. and i'm not doing registration anyway, if the people doing it, dont want it, fine with me. i assume they know what they are doing.
20:38:25 <gaudenz> moray: would it be possible to have you taking part in the hacking week-end on other dates?
20:38:58 <moray> gaudenz: in principle, but certainly for myself the travel time from Edinburgh sounds prohibitive for a weekend event
20:38:59 <gaudenz> h01ger: I'm not opposed to a f2f meeting elsewhere on that date.
20:39:00 <gwolf1> I don't know if there's much point in setting up a big hacking event on a system that is not so hacking-friendly and that many of you desisted on working on
20:39:13 <gwolf1> ...There has to be some *discussion* regarding accomodation/registration
20:39:21 <gwolf1> but that does not mean "hacking weekend"
20:39:28 <gwolf1> that *could* be mostly done beforehand
20:39:30 <moray> for registration itself, the main thing will be to carefully consider the set of questions
20:39:41 <h01ger> gaudenz, and i think a meeting elsewhere is so much less usefull that i almost dont think its worth doing it
20:39:48 <moray> including feedback from as many people as possible who will (mis)interpret them in different ways
20:39:59 <gwolf1> but I feel a hacking weekend can be set up with 3-4 people staying even at a given home...
20:40:21 <gaudenz> moray: for that a f2f meeting would be usefull, just because of the increased communication bandwith.
20:40:22 <gwolf1> Don't know, I've stayed mostly out of the topic as I won't be part of it anyway
20:40:39 <OdyX> yeah, I'm considering proposing more f2f meetings as I did last year in Fribourg. Evening hacking or saturday-long hacking is definitely doable.
20:40:48 <gwolf1> gaudenz: exactly. If it's worth f2f work, great. But I am skeptical it will be a mostly-hacking event.
20:40:55 <OdyX> #save
20:41:01 <h01ger> gaudenz, le camp *is* a tricky venue. its better if more people see it.
20:41:04 <gaudenz> gwolf1: I agree for hacking on code.
20:41:09 * gwolf1 time-sshares between food and meeting
20:41:17 <OdyX> we're getting longish on that topic. Can we get a decision ?
20:41:27 <gaudenz> h01ger: I agree that's why I think we should choose a date where more NEW people can attend.
20:41:30 <gwolf1> h01ger: how is that not "promoting the venue" (we will use anyway)?
20:41:39 <h01ger> gaudenz, in may?
20:42:00 <gaudenz> h01ger: If that suits more people yes
20:42:01 <h01ger> gaudenz, other dates there earlier are not possible. please stop wishing things
20:42:02 <OdyX> I'm in favour of the hacking week-end at Le Camp but thinks we need more f2f work-together meetings anyway, I'll propose some.
20:42:07 <cate> h01ger: IIRC later there is more difficult on finding free dates
20:42:10 <gaudenz> We will have other hot topics in may we can discuss then.
20:42:17 <h01ger> gwolf1, thats not promoting but learning to cope with it
20:42:24 <gwolf1> ...
20:42:25 <h01ger> cate, later is also more useless
20:42:37 <cate> later = may
20:42:56 <OdyX> #todo OdyX will propose f2f work-together meetings in the next weeks.
20:42:59 <h01ger> later = later
20:43:08 <gaudenz> I think may with 2 or 3 more people doing debconf-team work would be much more usefull.
20:43:16 <Ganneff> .
20:43:26 <gaudenz> that have not seen le camp yet.
20:43:31 <cate> 26-28 April?
20:43:56 * h01ger doesnt get it. early april was already too late, why do we look for a later date now?
20:44:30 <cate> h01ger: for other preparatory stuffs. There are no early date available (with Ganneff)
20:44:31 <gaudenz> I think we should decouple the week-end from  the registration discussions.
20:44:34 <Ganneff> not having read backlog fully (way too much, people) - that sounds like no weekend for penta stuff?
20:44:39 <OdyX> I suggest to keep the meeting short. If we can't agree for the proposed week-end now, someone should get back to Le Camp to get more dates and setup a new doodle.
20:44:40 <gwolf1> gaudenz++
20:44:51 <harmoney> Can I point something out without coming across as being a troll?
20:44:52 <Ganneff> cate: only if you limit it to lecamp. if we put it elsewhere we can easily hold it sooner
20:45:07 <h01ger> harmoney, that mostly depends on your readers, /me thinks
20:45:27 <OdyX> I can certainly get offices (but no hosting) in Zurich for a week-end.
20:45:46 <gaudenz> harmoney: sure, I'm convinced your not a troll
20:45:47 <h01ger> (harmony, IOW: please do, always.)
20:45:51 <Ganneff> i can easily get stuff in fulda, and most probably essen too.
20:46:01 <Ganneff> (with *cheap* hotel costs, yes)
20:46:04 <harmoney> The limitations of f2f traveling for hacking is *WHY* DebConf came about; it seems rather, ah, disparaging to have to have another f2f meeting, for a much briefer time, requiring extensive travel from some attendees, just to go to a place where they're going to be in a few months anyway for a conference on, ah, hacking.
20:46:29 <OdyX> so, I'll be the bad cop meeting chair: please everyone say if your for or against a meeting in Le Camp on 5-7 april
20:46:46 <gwolf1> harmoney: ...and where only one new person will se LePlace, if it's an important point at all
20:47:38 <harmoney> gwolf1: Which seems to limit the usefulness even more. I think the hacking meeting is important (clearly), but why not in just a traditional bug-squashing party way? Save the funds for DebConf itself, or sprinkle a little for a bug-squashing party or a couple or something.
20:48:15 <gwolf1> right. There are many points that make F2F meetings *useful* giving a large part of the team is geographically close and will be cheapish
20:48:18 <Ganneff> harmoney: hacking from home in this case will greatly limit the amount of work done. goal of the meeting was to be focused and have lotsa stuff in SHORT time
20:48:33 <gwolf1> but I don't believe a large-scale hacking weekend is so needed..?
20:48:34 <moray> for me personally it's much more plausible I could go for a weekend to somewhere that's close to a cheap flight from Edinburgh, but I'm not trying to stop meetings happen for others
20:48:35 <XTaran> Ganneff: fulda and essen are far away from Switzerland.
20:48:36 <OdyX> harmoney: besides it's "hacking to make DebConf happen"
20:48:45 <h01ger> harmoney, most attendees (except me, i'd guess) will have travel costs of less than 100€. i dont consider that expensive, but maybe thats me.
20:49:00 <OdyX> anyway, what are we deciding here ?
20:49:03 <Ganneff> XTaran: we dont need so many switzer people actually for a penta hacking. :)
20:49:11 <XTaran> Ganneff: Granted. :)
20:49:14 <h01ger> (and i've said everything else already, incl that i'm too tired to attend, so as i said already too: cu.)
20:49:16 <harmoney> Ganneff, h01ger: That's awesome - if you guys can get to Switzerland, maybe one of the locals could host a BSP-type thing and offer up hospitality?
20:49:41 * h01ger shakes head
20:50:00 <OdyX> my perception is that the motivation for the 5-7 april week-end is not at its best and that we need sooner (and shorter) meetings for registration
20:50:17 <Ganneff> OdyX: april is too late for the proposed registration opening. so yes, thats a bad date.
20:50:22 <gwolf1> OdyX: agree
20:50:27 <cate> But maybe a preliminary question: how will hack penta?
20:50:46 <Ganneff> how? who you mean? me, with whoever wants to share pain.
20:51:17 <moray> penta shouldn't need much actual hacking, if we're just living with it for one more year
20:51:18 <cate> right " who"
20:51:23 <vorlon> how about sending a call for masochists to the mailing list, separate from the f2f meeting proposal?
20:51:24 <gaudenz> I think we already decided that last meeting, didn't we?
20:51:45 <Ganneff> vorlon: we dont need, we have. if you mean penta
20:52:00 <Ganneff> moray: afaik its decided to stay with penta this year, yes.
20:52:10 <OdyX> we "just" need people to sit around a table and "configure penta for DC13", right ?
20:52:17 <Ganneff> yes.
20:52:23 <Ganneff> and do some changes, whatever that is thats needed.
20:52:38 <Ganneff> and make it all so that we could, right after that meeting, open registration
20:52:54 <gaudenz> the harder part is probably coming up with the right questions than actually hacking on it code wise.
20:52:56 <gwolf1> what is needed is to agree on the criteria to hack penta aroung
20:52:58 <gwolf1> around
20:52:59 <OdyX> fine if I propose a saturday worth of work in Fribourg for a f2f with locals for working on that ?
20:53:02 <moray> Ganneff: right, I meant we live with it, and hope to move some other time, so no point rewriting it all
20:53:03 <Ganneff> so we dont need many people actually.
20:53:06 <h01ger> gaudenz, exactly…
20:53:11 <moray> Ganneff: just the minimum needed
20:53:28 <OdyX> gaudenz: which is also better done in f2f, right ?
20:53:36 <OdyX> .oO(People, we're running out of time)
20:53:41 <moray> and yes, we need to agree the questions, calmly and including people who can't be at a meeting that weekend
20:53:45 <Y_Plentyn> OdyX: when?
20:53:50 <Ganneff> so i would propose a weekend in fulda - its easy for me, so could do 9/10 and 16/17 march  (the latter i cant do elsewhere) and we can get two or so other people here easy.
20:54:07 <gaudenz> OdyX: yes but we also need a lot of input from different people to get it right
20:54:22 <OdyX> #todo Ganneff to propose week-end dates on the list
20:54:34 <Ganneff> i could get us a "hacklab" and depending on the amount of people even free lodging. or cheap cheap hotel.
20:54:42 <OdyX> #todo OdyX to propose day or week-end dates in .ch on the list.
20:54:44 <Ganneff> OdyX: no, i proposed them here
20:54:51 <Ganneff> wtf another list thread and another week of waiting?
20:54:59 <Ganneff> arent we able to just decide on it now?
20:55:00 <moray> I propose some registration hacking in Mexico DF
20:55:07 * Y_Plentyn grins
20:55:15 <moray> gwolf1: ^
20:55:18 <Ganneff> there are enough people here to participate in that. and to decide
20:55:23 <OdyX> Ganneff: I think not. because wtf 2hours-long meetings.
20:55:33 <OdyX> 5 minutes left.
20:55:46 <gwolf1> moray: the more the merrier :)
20:55:48 <Ganneff> how hard can it be? gosh.
20:55:54 <fil> it seems to me that the people doing the penta tuning really ought to have seen what LeCamp is like, so that they don't build any painful wrong assumptions into what they're doing -- I presume that's what h01ger was after -- have all the people working on penta already been to LeCamp?
20:55:56 <gwolf1> (I hope we get more Central Europeans than Mexicans on this...)
20:56:09 <Ganneff> moray: fd has the advantage that we get another weekend added. if its anywhere else, the 16/17th are out the door
20:56:18 <Ganneff> fil: no.
20:56:33 <OdyX> gwolf1, moray: can we keep the joking outside of the meeting pretty please? It's already tough to chair without that…
20:56:42 <gwolf1> fil: doing the penta should be decoupled from deciding on levels
20:56:52 <gwolf1> fil: people doing penta could be in a dark room with no windows, no problem
20:56:57 <moray> OdyX: I'm not joking, I will be there in March
20:57:20 <gaudenz> fil: I think that's only true for those desiging the registration questions or reviewing them, not really for those hacking the code.
20:57:29 <gwolf1> moray: if it coincides(?) with LeMeeting, we can tune in and work from here, surely
20:57:42 <gaudenz> I think we have enough people who konw le camp and can review the registration.
20:57:48 <Ganneff> gosh. people. can we make it easy: would people be ok with having either the 9/10 or the 16/17 in fulda, with like 3 or 4 people max? and we can just organise the happenings of that outside the meeting here?
20:57:55 <gwolf1> (or rather go to a beautiful colonial city... your call ;-) )
20:57:56 <OdyX> gaudenz: can we not do a f2f meeting with the locals.ch who went to Le Camp and submit that to the list ?
20:58:17 <Y_Plentyn> who would be in fd?
20:58:18 <Ganneff> (and limit that one to make penta nice for dc13)
20:58:23 <gaudenz> OdyX: we can and I'll propose that later anyway.
20:58:30 <Ganneff> Y_Plentyn: me. and 2 or so more that want to help.
20:58:33 <cate> Ganneff: I cannot on both WE, but anyway I have little interest on penta :-)
20:58:42 <Ganneff> cate: so i dont care.
20:58:42 <OdyX> fulda is no-no for me, way too far
20:58:47 <gaudenz> Ganneff: for me those dates don't work, but I'm not going to hack on the code anyway, so it does not matter.
20:58:48 <gwolf1> cate: decoupling FTW :)
20:59:01 <gwolf1> *but* we have to find some decisions before the PentaWeekend
20:59:10 <Ganneff> OdyX: and you must join in... or can deal without?
20:59:19 <Ganneff> gwolf1: sure, we need to know what we have to change.
20:59:24 <OdyX> Ganneff: sure. :-)
20:59:59 <gwolf1> Ganneff: well, rewriting it in Haskell could be a good start...
21:00:08 <Ganneff> so, if you want to limit the meeting time: can i get a "yeah, go ahead" or a "sod off" on organizing a penta hack here in fd?
21:00:33 <cate> "yeah, go ahead"
21:00:34 <gaudenz> Ganneff: I think go ahead
21:00:42 <OdyX> it's a "yeah go ahead", definitely.
21:00:48 <Ganneff> its going to drain less than 200 or 300 euros if at all in travel / possible hotel cost.
21:00:51 <OdyX> any initiative is good to take.
21:00:56 <Y_Plentyn> ok... doesn't look like anybody will join in. i'm out on 9/10 and have only 30% in 16/17
21:01:16 <Ganneff> good. then i get us the space and mail list with the exct weekend and see who else joins in.
21:01:30 <gaudenz> Ganneff: sounds like a good plan
21:01:51 <gaudenz> next topic?
21:01:52 <Ganneff> (and if noone i curse you all, you lot :) ). but h01ger should be a must.
21:01:53 <Ganneff> yes
21:02:04 <moray> (hm, laptop battery is almost gone)
21:02:13 <OdyX> #todo Ganneff to organise hacking fest in Fulda.
21:02:42 <OdyX> #topic DC13 - Tech
21:02:56 <OdyX> there was a meeting yesterday evening.
21:03:19 <gaudenz> anything urgent for this meeting from there?
21:03:20 <OdyX> afaik hug will go talk to Le Camp + ISP again, mostly clarifications around the prices needs of DebConf during DebConf.
21:03:31 <OdyX> no, not IMHO
21:03:40 <gaudenz> next topic then?
21:03:45 <XTaran> And then hug will be on VAC for a few weeks or so.
21:03:56 <OdyX> (again, it'd be good to paste some minutes to the list)
21:03:59 <OdyX> #topic DC13 - Varia
21:04:22 <XTaran> OdyX: There was no meetbot or such there, as it were basically just hug, Ganneff and me.
21:04:35 <XTaran> OdyX: Most stuff is on the Tech Team wiki page
21:04:47 <OdyX> XTaran: mentioning that in a mail is enough :-)
21:04:59 <XTaran> We mostly checked what task come next and what information we need to do further planning
21:05:10 <XTaran> OdyX: Ok.
21:05:40 <OdyX> as for DC13 varia, I tend to think we'd need a f2f meeting soon to re-start some of the now-hung tasks and leads, such as bar, debian day, debian birthday, day trip, etc.
21:05:57 <moray> right
21:06:02 <cate> +1
21:06:15 <gwolf1> Also for varia: We have to restart the DC14 bid process
21:06:21 <moray> and it would make sense to start progress quite soon e.g. t-shirts -- we might want to print them in Mexico or equivalent again
21:06:32 <moray> gwolf1: that's later in the agenda I believe :)
21:06:33 <gwolf1> I'm almost sure of that :)
21:06:39 <gwolf1> moray: after varia? Ok, sorry :)
21:06:42 <OdyX> gwolf1: there's a topic for that.
21:06:52 <OdyX> moray: good point.
21:06:53 <gwolf1> .
21:07:00 <gaudenz> I can organize that
21:07:13 <gaudenz> (the meeting) if you agree that we should do it.
21:07:20 <OdyX> #todo gaudenz to organise a "locals of the team" f2f meeting
21:07:22 <OdyX> yes please.
21:07:28 <OdyX> (I'll do the AGM in compensation)
21:07:31 <gwolf1> I can still provide the contact with Gaby and all that's needed to print+ship here - but we should go back to that point in a couple of months time
21:07:44 <gaudenz> OdyX: oh yes please!!
21:07:47 <moray> gwolf1: right, but it would need us to have a design etc. ready before that
21:07:58 <gwolf1> moray: too early now, anyway...
21:08:05 <OdyX> okay
21:08:08 <gwolf1> (re:meeting time)
21:08:09 <gaudenz> next topic?
21:08:19 <OdyX> #info T-shirts and stuff should be discussed in the f2f meeting.
21:08:26 <OdyX> #topic DC14 - Bid statuses
21:08:47 <gaudenz> I don't think t-shirts are the most important part currently we need to discuss
21:09:00 <cate> and not in a f2f meeting
21:09:36 <OdyX> gaudenz: no, but it's been mentionned, so I #info'ed it so that we don't forget.
21:09:38 <huntingbears> Venezuelan bid local team o/
21:09:41 <moray> so dc14: it seems like we have Venezuela and US bidding?
21:09:50 <moray> what was the announced deadline date again?
21:09:54 <OdyX> today
21:10:02 <OdyX> 28. February afaicr
21:10:15 <moray> right, so maybe somewhere else will arrive overnight
21:10:16 <moray> I guess not though
21:10:25 <OdyX> not from the wiki logs
21:10:26 <gwolf1> so we should basically announce a first bid meeting..?
21:10:31 <gwolf1> maybe for late next week?
21:10:46 <moray> gwolf1: we should start asking questions on the list, and announce the first meeting from the process
21:10:53 <OdyX> also announce the list of bids, start forming the DebConf commitee again
21:11:03 <moray> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Bid_process
21:11:10 <gwolf1> right... huntingbears, vorlon / harmoney: Do you have your bid pages ready and shiny?
21:11:30 <moray> OdyX: committee-ping happened already, though we didn't decide about adding extras or not
21:11:31 <gwolf1> OdyX: the committee has been  (almost?) reformed already, by direct mail
21:11:37 <huntingbears> gwolf1, yeap
21:11:50 <moray> the first meeting to happen should be "bid status meeting"
21:11:53 <gwolf1> so, how much time for everybody to read and comment on the pages?
21:12:10 <moray> I think we might want two weeks for questions first, rather than one, perhaps
21:12:15 <gwolf1> moray: we should try to do them in fast(er?) succession
21:12:19 <moray> as we need time for people to read, think about details
21:12:20 <OdyX> gwolf1, moray: cool. I remember from last years there was kinda- public hunt for volunteers, that hasn't happened again ?
21:12:21 <harmoney> gwolf1: Our bid page is current and has actually been red-pen edited.
21:12:41 <gwolf1> (what is red-pen editting?)
21:13:03 <harmoney> (gwolf1: they actually found grammar mistakes in things I put on there. There was much shame.)
21:13:14 <moray> gwolf1: well, speed kind of depends on the questions before/during the status meeting
21:13:34 <moray> (and people's availability of course)
21:13:55 <moray> gwolf1: I agree we should try to avoid things stretching out though
21:14:01 <gwolf1> moray: what I mean is that... we should aim at delaying this edcision the least possible
21:14:14 <gwolf1> without over-rushing
21:14:21 <gwolf1> that's why I suggested late next week
21:14:34 <gwolf1> we can have up to 8 days (if it's on Friday) to look at the bids
21:14:35 <OdyX> okay. Is there something we need to discuss as the whole team. Apparently 2/3 of the chairs have the thing well-managed.
21:14:41 <gwolf1> and discuss on list if needed
21:14:45 <OdyX> #topic DC14 - Roadmap
21:14:47 <moray> gwolf1: we are also meant to have questions and answers about bids fisrt, yes
21:14:53 <OdyX> ('cause we moved to that already)
21:14:56 <vorlon> gwolf1: yes, bid page is ready to go.
21:14:59 <gwolf1> right, but that should be parallel
21:15:11 <XTaran> OdyX: Mail sent.
21:15:23 <OdyX> XTaran: kewl !
21:16:29 <moray> gwolf1: if you want me to believe that is long enough, please start asking the bids detailed questions on the list :)
21:16:40 <OdyX> anything more DC14-related worth discussing now ?
21:16:46 <moray> I did wonder before if we should make a new dc14 list already for this
21:17:03 <moray> to avoid dc14 questions getting lost among dc13 stuff, or vice versa
21:17:04 <OdyX> Besides pushing more people from both bid teams to get dirtier with DebConf $now
21:17:05 <gaudenz> moray: I don't think we should.
21:17:07 <vorlon> well, I've been told I'm not allowed to use Portlandia youtube clips as promotional material for our bid
21:17:08 <gwolf1> moray: the alternative is to postpone until all questions have ben asked :)
21:17:11 <vorlon> so, no
21:17:29 * harmoney eyes vorlon.
21:17:54 <moray> OdyX: I'm not sure you meant to encourage the bid teams to "get dirty"
21:17:55 <OdyX> moray: I think dividing the list isn't a good idea.
21:18:00 <gwolf1> moray: Current -team should do. Or -discuss if we want further discussion of everybody
21:18:02 <gaudenz> we could try subject tagging to make it easier to spot dc14 threads.
21:18:19 <OdyX> moray: forgive my wrong english then, "get their hands dirty" ?
21:19:05 <moray> gwolf1: there has sometimes been a lack of early questions, then too many questions at the last minute without clear answers
21:19:35 <h01ger> can somechair please say #save
21:19:50 <OdyX> #save
21:20:26 <OdyX> okay. Anything more for DC14 ?
21:20:45 <OdyX> #topic Next meeting schedule and dates
21:20:45 <h01ger> darst, while a meeting is running (and has not ending) the log summary says "meeting ended $the_last_time_#save_was_said", which is somewhat irritating sometimes
21:21:14 * h01ger wonders what was decided about topic #5, weekend
21:21:19 <OdyX> we've had a doodle for this one, do we go doodle-by-doodle
21:21:35 <cate> in a week or two
21:21:41 <OdyX> h01ger: no decision, but week-end in fulda@Ganneff and f2f meetings for locals.ch
21:22:09 <gaudenz> OdyX: I hope not.
21:22:12 <h01ger> OdyX, ic. thanx
21:22:14 <OdyX> rhythm; every two weeks / every three ?
21:22:41 <OdyX> every three should be good enough if we have in-between topical work meetings,no ?
21:22:42 <cate> we need to finalize prices and registration question
21:22:45 <gaudenz> maybe we should just stick with thursday 20 UTC
21:22:55 <OdyX> thursday 20 UTC is good for me too
21:23:16 <gaudenz> every 3 weeks sounds good atm.
21:23:17 <gwolf1> gaudenz: I'd prefer it a bit earlier, but I'm on the wrong side of the globe to be majority ;-) Can do 20UTC
21:23:18 * h01ger would prefer every 1th and 3rd (or 2nd and 4th) $day of the week - something people can memorize ("ah, sunday, dc13 meeting...")
21:23:24 <cate> and this meeting is too long, so I prefer often but shorter meeting
21:23:29 <gaudenz> earlier is ok for me.
21:23:30 <Y_Plentyn> everyone who can not come there will not say anything against this.
21:23:31 <h01ger> and by now, monthly should be fine still
21:23:43 <OdyX> yeah, same IRC bias as everytime.
21:23:50 <gwolf1> (if it's Mar14, I'll be unavailable though)
21:23:50 <h01ger> (for global meetings. sub teams should/could happily meet more often)
21:24:01 * OdyX nods h01ger
21:24:17 <OdyX> and cate also. too long meetings.
21:24:38 <moray> h01ger: definitely
21:24:39 <gaudenz> how is not able to attend earlier on thursdays?
21:24:47 <OdyX> those who aren't here ? :)
21:24:48 <moray> h01ger: for day of the week being better, if possible
21:25:00 <moray> right, asking about meeting times in meetings doesn't work
21:25:01 <cate> gaudenz: DC14 on other continent
21:25:03 <gaudenz> every last thursday of the month?
21:25:16 <OdyX> I can setup a doodle for the next one.
21:25:18 <gaudenz> cate: I don't think these meetings will be about dc14
21:25:35 * h01ger also nods what fil said about his intentions at 20:56 - but thats off topic now :)
21:25:36 <gaudenz> OdyX: but please set it up so we have a day of week and can stick to it.
21:25:49 <XTaran> gaudenz: LUGS meeting is every fourth thursday. May cause clashes for me.
21:25:58 <OdyX> so a no-date "which time I prefer in the week" doodle ?
21:26:10 <gaudenz> XTaran: LUGBE meetings are every first thursday...
21:26:11 <XTaran> (and every fourth Friday with two weeks offset, too.)
21:26:13 <moray> gaudenz: I'm not sure why we would go with some arbitrary month scheme rather than every N weeks
21:26:36 <XTaran> gaudenz: Ok. We're on a two-weeks schedule, not on a monthly base
21:26:45 <OdyX> every 4 for now ?
21:26:57 <gaudenz> moray: because last time I did it the other way you and others complained and said month is better.
21:27:02 <OdyX> can we move that to list or can we reach to a decision now ?
21:27:13 <XTaran> OdyX: Doodle please
21:27:14 <cate> I want a meeting before: we had to finally decide DebCamp and opening the registration dates!
21:27:15 <h01ger> OdyX, not every 4 weeks. monthly.
21:27:42 <gaudenz> h01ger: but on the same day of week?
21:28:16 * gaudenz thinks it should be on the same day of week, don't care if every 4 weeks or monthly (eg. second xx of month)
21:28:25 <OdyX> #todo OdyX to setup and send Doodle for the next meeting, asking people to fill it with their general weekly availability, not this specific date's.
21:29:05 * gwolf1 waves goodbye and closes computer...
21:29:06 <OdyX> damn. I should not be chairing, I end up with all the todos.
21:29:17 <OdyX> #topic Varia
21:29:32 <OdyX> anything important enough to keep us awake ?
21:29:43 <h01ger> OdyX, when you chair, delegate the todos. ie refrain further topics until a volunteer has been found :)
21:29:50 <gwolf1> thx y'all, disappearing o/
21:29:50 * gismo says goodnight all!
21:30:04 <OdyX> h01ger: then meeting last 3 hours.
21:30:09 <OdyX> #endmeeting