19:58:29 <moray_> #startmeeting DebConf15 bid status meeting
19:58:29 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Feb 20 19:58:29 2014 UTC.  The chair is moray_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:58:29 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:58:35 <brother-> marga: I'll fetch it.
19:59:13 <moray_> #topic Pre-meeting
19:59:19 <moray_> Agenda at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Bid_process#Bid_status_meeting
19:59:59 <moray_> I think it's traditional for people to mangle their nicks to show what bid team they are from, though probably we can work it out without that.
20:00:30 <wouter-mechelen> we can do that :)
20:00:46 <moray_> #addchair gwolf
20:00:51 <moray_> #addchair h01ger
20:01:06 <brother-karlskrona> there
20:01:22 <wouter-mechelen> gerry said he might be able to join, but he wasn't sure
20:01:27 <madduck-de> same with azeem
20:02:07 <moray_> And do we have some people here *not* from bid teams?
20:02:14 * gwolf is here
20:02:17 <gwolf> -ish
20:02:22 * h01ger barely
20:02:36 * cate 
20:02:43 <RichiH-de> .
20:03:45 <moray_> #topic Introductions from teams and their members
20:04:25 <moray_> By pseudo-random selection, Karlskrona team please introduce your team (very briefly) first / say any non-question things you want to mention (very briefly)
20:04:38 <moray_> (Questions come later on.)
20:05:15 <RichiH-de> brother-karlskrona
20:06:19 <gwolf> pseudorandom.kick(seed)
20:06:22 <brother-karlskrona> yes ok. hi
20:06:37 <brother-karlskrona> I haven't prepared anything for this section. it will be me representing us tonight.
20:07:12 <madduck-de> moray_: can't we do this with questions? Or let us go first
20:07:39 <wouter-mechelen> madduck-de: seconded -- you have two people with more experience in this; that would allow us to understand what's expected
20:07:45 <moray_> This is just meant to be "hi, I am blah from team blah.  we think our bid is great except for the problem with donkeys"
20:07:55 <wouter-mechelen> oh. okay.
20:07:57 <madduck-de> yeah, we have donkey problems too
20:07:58 <madduck-de> ;)
20:08:05 <madduck-de> okay, I will go first, moray… ok?
20:08:12 <moray_> ok
20:08:15 * zlatan curses damn donkeys
20:08:24 <RichiH-de> moray_: how did you hear of our donkey problems?
20:08:33 <madduck-de> Hi from the German team!
20:08:34 <brother-karlskrona> ok. I can add that our main problem is the accomodation part and that we are fairly few at this stage.
20:08:38 <brother-karlskrona> that's all
20:08:48 <madduck-de> we have a roster on the wiki: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf15/Germany/Bid#Local_team
20:09:00 * gwolf is a student at a university where the symbol/pet is a white donkey and feels personally insulted by your problems.
20:09:06 <madduck-de> There's a lot of DC and other conference experience in our rows
20:09:19 <madduck-de> And we are very excited to be partaking in this bidding
20:09:26 <madduck-de> Our goal is a top-quality conference
20:09:38 <madduck-de> and we are quite aware of budget issues that usually come to haunt people
20:09:55 <madduck-de> For this and other reasons
20:10:10 <madduck-de> we decided to not focus on a single location until after the bid decision is made
20:10:22 <madduck-de> so that we can negotiate and play locations off against each other
20:10:37 <madduck-de> We expect this to increase quality and make more money available tof rtravel sponroship
20:10:47 <madduck-de> that's it…
20:11:10 <moray_> ok, Mechelen is left
20:11:20 <moray_> and then Karlskrona can add anything they thought of after that
20:11:22 <wouter-mechelen> yeah
20:11:33 <wouter-mechelen> so, our team consists of a healthy mix of debconf regulars and fosdem organisers
20:12:03 <wouter-mechelen> there's some good experience in the fosdem organisers, and we think we can make things run quite smoothly
20:12:32 <wouter-mechelen> our main problem is that we found prices to be a bit higher, and didn't get a quick reply from the city government, which reduced moral somewhat.
20:12:37 <wouter-mechelen> morale, even
20:13:04 <wouter-mechelen> we're picking up again now, but there are a number of questions still open. I have good confidence that we'll be able to work those issues out, however, and make a great conference in a wonderful city
20:13:20 <wouter-mechelen> that's it, I suppose
20:14:10 <moray_> any other interjections from Karlskrona?
20:14:13 <brother-karlskrona> nope
20:14:17 <moray_> great, thanks
20:14:25 <moray_> #topic Questions from teams about the process, and about what others suggest they try to do on any uncertain aspects or potential problems
20:14:46 <moray_> OK, kind of free-for-all on questions about the process, or anything you need help/advice with on your bids
20:14:53 <RichiH-de> what's the timeline for the decision?
20:15:09 <moray_> that is to be determined :)   normally we have this meeting then a second one a week or two later
20:15:32 <wouter-mechelen> so that would be the first week of march, then?
20:15:33 <madduck-de> It would be really helpful to have a date to work towards
20:15:38 <moray_> I don't think we really have enough non-bidders here to make any decision today, unless one of the bids wants to withdraw
20:15:56 <madduck-de> needs not be today, but it's really difficult to talk with people and not give them a date by when we'll know.
20:16:25 <moray_> madduck-de: right, I would suggest we keep to the traditional timeline like that.  I was going to ask teams about this later if not raised now
20:16:25 <madduck-de> so if we agree that +2 weeks we'll have a decision meeting with a coin toss at the end if necessary, that's good.
20:16:38 <madduck-de> moray_: fine…
20:16:50 <moray_> can we come back to this at the end of the meeting?
20:16:53 <wouter-mechelen> sure
20:17:02 <madduck-de> sure
20:17:14 <moray_> any other process issues?
20:17:25 <moray_> or e.g. questions about what is needed for a good bid in some aspect
20:17:26 <madduck-de> not from here
20:17:49 <brother-karlskrona> no
20:18:11 <wouter-mechelen> I might ask some of those later on, but I don't have any such questions right now
20:18:21 <moray_> sure, they can always be asked on the list anyway
20:18:34 <wouter-mechelen> yeah, that's what I mean
20:18:36 <moray_> it's just useful to have bid teams confirm that they are happy and doubt-free
20:18:39 <moray_> :)
20:18:58 <moray_> so if we don't have anything in this part, ...
20:18:59 <moray_> #topic Questions to teams, if there are still unanswered issues
20:19:32 <moray_> I know we don't have many non-bidders here; questions from bid teams are also ok, but please don't try to score points, just to clarify anything that is unclear
20:19:44 <moray_> As a first question:
20:20:07 <moray_> A question to all bids: if we were just deciding "yes/no" to your bid, how long would you want us to wait before making that decision?  (= do you think your bid is ready to be judged now, or if not how much more time does it need?)
20:20:07 <brother-karlskrona> my answer message to cate was caught in the moderation filter thing to the list and I haven't seen it yet myself.
20:20:47 <brother-karlskrona> rather sooner than later.
20:20:58 <wouter-mechelen> moray_: I think there's always room for improvement on the bid, but I'd rather not postpone things too much anymore
20:21:12 <wouter-mechelen> and I think we know the position of the german team :)
20:21:17 <brother-karlskrona> we can dig out more details ofc but I do think there are enough information already.
20:21:41 <moray_> brother-karlskrona: ok.  the lack of detail on, e.g. accommodation, might mean that people rule out your bid, is that acceptable for you?
20:21:53 <brother-karlskrona> yes ofc
20:21:57 <RichiH-de> .de wants a quick decision either way
20:22:10 <marga-de> So, I'm going to ask a few question about a couple of subjects that worry me.  I should have done this on-list but didn't sorry.
20:22:17 <marga-de> Question for Mechelen: the hostel is affordable, but it's relatively small and not so close to the venue.  The hotels, that are close, are less affordable. It looks like sponsored people will have to be far away, with a hard limit on how many those can be, while non-sponsored people will need to pay a noticeable amount of money.  Is that your plan?
20:22:18 <RichiH-de> as to how long "long" is...
20:22:42 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: that is one option
20:22:59 <madduck-de> we are reasonably confident to be able to host dc15 in either of the two locations and with an affirmative decision, we'd be able to concentrate on making it really good (in either place)
20:23:18 <marga-de> wouter-mechelen, is there another option?
20:23:23 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: the other option would be to put all accomodation costs in one big basket, and have an "average" price of something like 30-45 for everyone
20:23:58 <wouter-mechelen> of course, those who want a single room would have to pay the full price
20:24:00 <marga-de> wouter-mechelen, you mean, nobody gets free accom?
20:24:06 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: no, not that
20:24:29 <marga-de> wouter-mechelen, so, people in the hotels would get subsidized accom?
20:24:42 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: if the hostel is full, yes
20:24:58 <marga-de> ok.
20:25:07 <marga-de> Question for Mechelen: has anybody actually walked from the hostel to the venue to time the distance accurately?
20:25:10 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: I see that as an option, but indeed, what you described above is actually more likely
20:25:37 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: I have often walked from the trainstation to the venue, which is approximately the same distance. That is about 15 minutes walking
20:25:46 <marga-de> ok
20:25:52 <marga-de> Question for Kalskrona: I already asked before, but I'm worried about the bus situation. How frequent they are and how does that change outside peak hours (Sat/Sun or even late night).
20:25:54 <wouter-mechelen> marga-de: I haven't actually done the distance hostel->venue, but it's not that much difference
20:25:57 <madduck-de> (120 * 20 + 20 * 99 + 160 * 109/2.)/300. → 44€ average price incl. breakfast with 20 singles, full hostel and the rest in doubles in hotel rooms, of 300 people.
20:26:14 <marga-de> madduck-de, that's for Mechelen, right?
20:26:17 <madduck-de> yes
20:26:34 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: weekdays from 6:30, saturdays from 8:30, sundays from 10:30. the stop regular schedule at 21:30 all days. one departure every 30 minutes.
20:26:37 <brother-karlskrona> SORRY!
20:26:42 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: weekdays from 6:30, saturdays from 8:30, sundays from 10:30. the stop regular schedule at 21:30 all days. one departure every 30 minutes.
20:26:47 <madduck-de> no worries ;)
20:27:04 <marga-de> 30 minutes seems a lot :-/
20:27:11 <marga-de> Question for Kalskrona: The prices quoted for hotels are really high, do you expect to get better prices or do you think those are the best you can get?
20:27:12 <_rene_-de> this means no bus after 21:30 anymore?
20:27:34 <brother-karlskrona> _rene_-de: indeed.
20:27:46 <brother-karlskrona> _rene_-de: taxis and walking after that =(
20:27:55 <wouter-mechelen> brother-karlskrona: how long a walk?
20:27:56 <RichiH-de> how long is the walk?
20:27:58 <marga-de> I guess this also means no hacklab after 21:30... Will there be hacklabs in the city?
20:29:24 <RichiH-de> ah, sorry, the info is in the wiki:  In walking distance this is about 30-40 minutes (local bus connection is good, though).
20:29:27 <RichiH-de> brother-karlskrona: sorry
20:29:32 <brother-karlskrona> wouter-mechelen: 30-45 minutes. I do it in 30 minutes but I am fairly quick. 2,3 km
20:29:38 <wouter-mechelen> right
20:29:45 <wouter-mechelen> that's doable, but only barely IMO
20:29:46 <marga-de> brother-karlskrona, bikes?
20:29:46 <brother-karlskrona> RichiH-de: ^
20:30:06 <madduck-de> or a shuttle service, *might* work…
20:30:17 <marga-de> Those were my questions.
20:30:18 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: I don't know about rental bikes. I guess there are some given the tourist nature of the city. that's a popular solution to things these days
20:30:21 <gwolf> madduck-de: We have come to distrust the "magic buses" solution
20:30:22 <madduck-de> i mean, renting the car and paying a student wouldn't be too much
20:30:27 <_rene_-de> brother-karlskrona: with or without luggage? :)
20:30:44 <gwolf> having buses of our own (or for our own) makes things much messier
20:30:46 <brother-karlskrona> _rene_-de: I walk quick without luggge indeed. =)
20:30:49 <h01ger> i dont mind you having this meeting, but... it feels like a nice excersize in debating to me
20:30:50 <madduck-de> gwolf: i was just at a conf with awesome student-run shuttle service, and it wasn't very expensive actually
20:31:02 <marga-de> My hotel prices question is still unanswered, though
20:31:03 <h01ger> (so keep on, i will just keep on doing what i'm doing :)
20:31:10 <gwolf> madduck-de: I have been at similar things. But we are too spread and unpredictable IMO
20:31:29 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: I haven't forgotten it. sorry for the delay
20:31:30 <madduck-de> gwolf: 3 shuttles, 20 hours/day at 800 €/day
20:31:57 <madduck-de> gwolf: the 3 shuttles worked according to the ATM routing principles and it worked perfectly well.
20:32:03 <madduck-de> and it was an unconference, so it was very chaotic
20:32:26 <gwolf> umh, which for (say) 10 days, would be 8000€, were we to get that pricing
20:32:37 <gwolf> I'd rather avoid it if possible!
20:32:38 * RichiH-de notes that mpls-te > atm
20:32:44 <gwolf> (if not possible, it could be arranged)
20:32:51 <madduck-de> gwolf: which isn't so bad if we can get cheaper accomodation or a cheaper venue, actually.
20:32:51 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: regarding the accomodation thing. hotels seems to be about €85 for a room for up to three. that would include breakfast and all that usual stuff. list price. 85/3=30. I found that the hostel price is about €20 for a room. no breakfast and there are not super many rooms available in that option.
20:33:00 <gwolf> madduck-de: right...
20:33:07 <madduck-de> gwolf: yes, avoid if you can, but it seems to me that karlskrona would need it.
20:33:24 <madduck-de> at least during peak hours.
20:33:45 <marga-de> brother-karlskrona, ah, I had missed the /3,  I thought it was per person. 30 € seems okish.
20:34:13 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: oh. indeed.
20:34:30 <moray_> ok, please quote per person per night figures instead :)
20:34:31 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: I think it's  a bit on the high end of the scale but 90/person is bad =)
20:34:51 <madduck-de> well, 30/person is below .be and .de and might just leave enough money for the shuttles. ;)
20:34:53 <moray_> all numbers will be assumed to be per person per night regardless
20:35:02 <brother-karlskrona> ok. sorry
20:35:37 <madduck-de> brother-karlskrona: I think it would be useful if you did a rough budget for the next meeting, and sent it to the list beforehand
20:35:38 <moray_> saying "for X rooms" doesn't disambiguate, as you still normally have different pppn for different room types :)
20:35:42 <brother-karlskrona> adjusted in wiki also to not fool anyone reading the historic things
20:35:46 <madduck-de> it's doable, but you are working with a difficult baseline
20:36:07 <h01ger> madduck-de: how many more next meetings do you plan/foresee?
20:36:17 <madduck-de> h01ger: to be discussed at the end.
20:36:30 <madduck-de> brother-karlskrona: would you be okay with that and can we move on?
20:36:31 <h01ger> .oO( we dont even have formed a comittee yet... :) if we need one... )
20:36:35 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: sure.
20:36:55 <madduck-de> are there any questions to .de?
20:37:16 <moray_> question to Germany: how long do you plan to/can you hold off on deciding a final venue?  (note that I generally think flexibility is good -- in several years we changed major details about the venue quite a way through the year, e.g. in Argentina, Nicaragua, Spain)
20:37:38 <wouter-mechelen> moray_: I was about to ask the same thing :)
20:37:41 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: sorry. hacklab in the city pretty much a no go. but I guess people can use the corridors in the hotels as we did in BL or such.
20:38:09 <brother-karlskrona> marga-de: and arranging to use the hacklab durings nights is possible. just the transportation that is messy.
20:38:47 <madduck-de> moray_: good question, you are forcing me to answer separately for the two locations! ;)
20:39:13 <madduck-de> moray_: Heidelberg is in place until end of March, but Heidelberg also would let us cancel in spring 2015 without any costs
20:39:33 <madduck-de> of course, we ought not count on that, but I think we can get 2–3 months before we have to sign.
20:40:09 <madduck-de> Munich is a bit different because there are more contractual partners. The only difficult one would be the hostel
20:40:16 <madduck-de> but I imagine we could swing a deal with them
20:40:22 <moray_> and what is the timeframe for more clarity on free stuff in Munich?
20:40:46 <madduck-de> define "free stuff"?
20:40:56 <madduck-de> venue?
20:40:56 <RichiH-de> madduck-de: venue
20:41:00 <wouter-mechelen> madduck-de: there was something with the dean having to decide something?
20:42:08 <madduck-de> We are on it. The dean has refused to commit at this stage. We are trying to schedule a hearing, and there is resistance forming in the Hochschule against being so sluggish about this, because many seem to want DebConf
20:42:22 <madduck-de> there's a bit of Debian at the Hochschule, so we ought to get good support from various ranks
20:42:43 <moray_> but any expectation on a timeframe?
20:43:02 <RichiH-de> also, we mobilized several contacts into the teaching body to increase internal pressure
20:43:32 <moray_> (do you expect an answer in days or in months?)
20:43:33 <RichiH-de> moray_: ~2-3 weeks
20:43:42 <madduck-de> moray_: just to be clear: you are asking about when we can have a certain response from munich about getting the venue for free?
20:43:43 <RichiH-de> that would be the absolute maximum
20:44:01 <madduck-de> yeah
20:45:15 <RichiH-de> moray_: it's noteworthy that heidelberg knows the munich option is strong and even _if(!)_ this didn't work out, we would keep that option "alive" in heidelberg's eyes
20:45:22 <madduck-de> there are no reasons that actually speak against dc15 there, i.e. the venue is free, it's non-profit, conferences have run there before, we had it signed off for 2011
20:45:35 <madduck-de> so we think it's just a question of communication and information.
20:46:15 <madduck-de> and munich knows that heidelberg exists and is keen to host us, and they know that debconf has traditionally been hosted at universities half the time
20:46:42 <madduck-de> which is why there is so much desire from students and staff to have it at "their" school.
20:47:32 <RichiH-de> also, HM is the "least" of the three munich universities so that's another source of local pride and feud which should play into our hands
20:47:49 <moray_> there's also another question there -- what does it mean for it to be "internal" there?  how would it affect the event from our viewpoint?
20:47:52 <madduck-de> yeah, that was an obvious hint by the dean of studies for IT
20:48:02 <moray_> how many extra attendees do you expect this would mean?
20:48:12 <madduck-de> moray_: 20–30, maybe 50
20:48:25 <madduck-de> they would get free attendance, not food and no accomodation
20:48:38 <madduck-de> and some would be orga team, I am sure
20:48:58 <madduck-de> great way to hire new DDs!
20:49:09 <moray_> but the organisation in general would still be as we want it, just with help from them where desired?  (I'm assuming yes)
20:49:09 * h01ger likes this part very much
20:49:17 <RichiH-de> moray_: yes
20:49:34 <RichiH-de> the reason why it needs to be internal is that it would not be possible to pay to rent that venue
20:49:59 <moray_> right
20:50:02 <RichiH-de> if it's internal, the chairs pay the "rent" from their internal funds towards the "house" if that makes sense
20:50:21 <RichiH-de> but that means that we need to actually provide a teaching oppurtunity for students
20:50:26 <RichiH-de> which is a _huge_ plus to me
20:50:47 <gwolf> madduck-de: Just as $random_person always gets free entry to DebConf.
20:50:52 <RichiH-de> matter of fact, if this flies, debcamp could be kicked off with a debian day for the students or such
20:51:01 <gwolf> (but if they see it as a plys, much the better :)
20:51:09 <RichiH-de> that, in turn, could increase interest in hacking sessions, etc
20:51:16 <madduck-de> while their students organise a conference for Debian! ;)
20:51:19 <madduck-de> debday, and maybe a more user-oriented day of debconf…
20:51:22 <madduck-de> gwolf: yeah, I knew we weren't giving much away ;)
20:51:36 <gwolf> for one, I love the idea of it being in an university setting again
20:51:45 <RichiH-de> it's noteworthy that students would be free to register properly to pay for food, etc
20:51:46 <madduck-de> and it's a frickin' nice university!
20:52:03 <madduck-de> … in addition to the free tickets we give out
20:52:11 <RichiH-de> that would also mean that we will need wristbands or some such to determine who paid
20:52:23 <madduck-de> gwolf: it's basically all very open, so hacking would happen in corners and rooms, we'd eat right there in the middle of things
20:52:25 <h01ger> very deutsch :/
20:52:26 <moray_> ok, any more questions from people?
20:52:29 <madduck-de> and the talk rooms would be in all directions.
20:52:48 <madduck-de> RichiH-de: we need wrist bands or so anyway due to shifts, if we need them.
20:52:58 <madduck-de> h01ger: you haven't been to LCA have you? is that deutsch too?
20:53:08 <gwolf> how large is this campus?
20:53:18 <madduck-de> area? students?
20:53:21 <gwolf> i.e. walking distance between rooms, eatingplace, etc
20:53:26 <madduck-de> gwolf: <5 mins
20:53:32 <moray_> any more general comments from bid teams on the flexibility of their proposals, within each city?  e.g. if we had a problem about accommodation 6 months before, do you have backup options?
20:53:32 <RichiH-de> <2
20:53:56 <wouter-mechelen> moray_: for mechelen, we haven't contacted all hotels
20:53:59 <gwolf> madduck-de: walking like wouter-mechelen, or walking like entertained-happy DDs who just had too much hefe weißbier? ;-)
20:54:11 <madduck-de> gwolf: crawling
20:54:14 <wouter-mechelen> there are several more; the three that are part of our bid are just the closest ones
20:54:23 <madduck-de> gwolf: it's spacious and integrated. it's great.
20:54:26 <wouter-mechelen> so if we have an issue there, that can be fixed by contacting other hotels
20:54:50 <wouter-mechelen> as for the venue, there's not really an alternative
20:55:03 <madduck-de> moray_: I am sure that we could find alternatives 6 months prior, but we'd also have a contract with the youth hostel then
20:55:14 <wouter-mechelen> we did contact the educational institute in Mechelen, but they don't have auditoriums that are large enough
20:55:14 <madduck-de> sure, if it burnt down… but then their insurance would have to put us up.
20:55:42 <RichiH-de> gwolf, moray_: http://goo.gl/maps/QaiPX
20:56:05 <RichiH-de> the modern, long building with the red cube
20:56:05 <madduck-de> moray_: I don't think it's worth to organise a backup up front, but it's important to have a lawyer on the contract, which won't be a problem and won't cost me anything.
20:56:23 <madduck-de> RichiH-de: osm.org!
20:56:35 <RichiH-de> the flat roof with glass in the middle houses one open indoor space
20:56:48 <madduck-de> and we would not be using much else than this area and the surrounding rooms.
20:56:55 <RichiH-de> two storeys with the upper one basically a balcony
20:57:14 <RichiH-de> madduck-de: osm does not have airial pictures (yet)
20:57:48 <marga-de> I think this has degenerated
20:57:58 <moray_> marga-de: yes, I tried to wind it up a moment ago
20:58:06 <moray_> any *different* questions?
20:58:15 <moray_> please discuss details of the above things on the list
20:58:37 <marga-de> Schedule for the next meeting is then the missing question.
20:59:03 <moray_> #topic Next meeting
20:59:36 <madduck-de> (silence)
20:59:39 <moray_> Though please speak up if any bids have suddenly decided to withdraw :)
21:00:00 <h01ger> do we consider all bids good enough?
21:00:17 <gregoa> (sorry to interrupt) paraphrasing h01ger: is there a reason not to decide today, besides tradition? IMo the choice is quite obvious
21:01:17 <brother-karlskrona> I updated the bus information after rereading it again. sorry for the confusion. https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf15/Bids/Karlskrona/checklist#Buses_in_the_town
21:01:27 <moray_> gregoa: It seems to be very obvious to one set of people, but I have heard views in support of multiple bids.
21:01:28 <brother-karlskrona> last bus leaves just before midnight.
21:01:31 <moray_> Not just from the bid teams.
21:01:40 <brother-karlskrona> not much much better but later at least
21:01:56 <h01ger> moray_: hear hear. can you be more verbose?
21:02:11 <gregoa> moray_: ok, I wasn't aware of that
21:02:35 <moray_> h01ger: Well, I know lots of people think that Germany are the obvious winners, but I've also had people tell me that Belgium is their choice.
21:03:00 <moray_> I'm talking about the recent, post-bid-materials time frame.
21:03:40 <moray_> Before that I heard people in favour of all options; I don't think I heard pro-Karlskrona more recently ... though the wiki page suggesting the accommodation was €90 per person per night may not have helped
21:03:49 <h01ger> moray_: well, this is debian... :) i wondered about reason(ing)s, not just mere factual preferences
21:05:10 <h01ger> so next we need is a comitee or shall we first try to find consensus?
21:05:23 <madduck-de> It won't hurt to give each team a bit more time to polish their bids. In the end, we want the best to win and if the best get better, yay for debconf.
21:05:59 <moray_> h01ger: I don't see that we will magically reach consensus in 5 minutes just now.
21:06:10 <madduck-de> We won't be able to do much more until we have a green light, but if it helps others to improve…
21:06:23 <h01ger> moray_: i havent seen anyone disagreeing yet, so maybe we have consensus in 3secs :)
21:06:36 <h01ger> s/in 3secs/already/
21:06:38 <moray_> h01ger: we also don't have many non-bidders here
21:06:46 <moray_> I guess that some of the non-German bid teams still want to win
21:06:54 <moray_> since they didn't withdraw when asked above
21:07:05 <wouter-mechelen> speaking for myself, yes
21:07:20 <wouter-mechelen> I will withdraw if and when I am convinced that another team is an obvious winner
21:07:21 <brother-karlskrona> same
21:07:23 <wouter-mechelen> but that isn't now
21:07:30 <madduck-de> let the games begin!
21:07:37 <h01ger> i think we should drop the swedish bid and thank them for their efforts.
21:08:23 <gwolf> h01ger: if we still have a decision to make, and if the Swedish team is still wanting to push, we don't have to drop it
21:08:28 <h01ger> we dont need to excercise all options for the sake of exploring them, IMO.
21:08:53 <gwolf> I also don't see them as a strong offer WRT the two others. But if we will anyway have a next meeting, it won't hurt having .se
21:09:17 <brother-karlskrona> I agree with h01ger. if you want to remove options that is a fair way to go.
21:09:28 <h01ger> it will take more time for the whole meeting, it will cause pointless work in .se, it causes pointless work #here.
21:09:47 <brother-karlskrona> exact reason.
21:10:02 <madduck-de> brother-karlskrona: would you consider running again for dc17?
21:10:03 <gwolf> brother-karlskrona: If you are willing to drop out, I won't argue
21:10:07 <RichiH-de> brother-karlskrona: for the record, this is germany's third attempt in a row
21:10:10 <moray_> I had personally discounted it before in part due to the expensive accommodation, which turns out to be a misunderstanding.
21:10:16 <brother-karlskrona> gwolf: that's not what I said.
21:10:16 <moray_> But certainly it has detail lacking.
21:10:27 <h01ger> i'm really happy we have this swedish bid. but i also think we need to be honest and say "thanks for bidding, the other bids are way better, please keep trying next time!"
21:10:28 <gwolf> brother-karlskrona: I don't want you to put extra effort in case you feel your bid is clearly not the winner
21:10:29 <moray_> And I don't *expect* that detail to magically appear in the next days -- ?
21:10:38 <gwolf> brother-karlskrona: but it's completely your right to continue IMO
21:10:51 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: people have told me that they want to push for a new attempt. no specific year mentioned. for my own part I don't know.
21:11:15 <gwolf> brother-karlskrona: OK... So, should we gratiously accept your withdrawal and welcome you to the organizing team? :)
21:11:50 <brother-karlskrona> gwolf: I think we have something that is at least as good as the other two. but I am not deciding here - you guys are and you know what parts to look for. if you want to remove us I think that is fair
21:12:16 <madduck-de> brother-karlskrona: I think that if you took what you learned this time and kept your eyes open and tried again in two years (it's in europe traditionally only every two years), you'd have a real advantage over anyone trying then.
21:12:41 <gwolf> brother-karlskrona: I'd recommend you to withdraw, as I feel there's a big distance yet to cover.
21:12:42 <madduck-de> but if you think you can make it happen this time, then don't withdraw
21:13:08 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: we would not be here if we didn't think it was worth it ofc =)
21:13:21 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: same goes for all of us I assume. silly thing otherwise
21:13:49 <madduck-de> you have some hard questions to solve between now and the next meeting.
21:14:12 <brother-karlskrona> madduck-de: budget. indeed. got it.
21:14:18 <gregoa> wouter-mechelen: I understand that you don't want to withdraw the bid for mechelen with a quick shrug and write it off. since you said "I will withdraw if and when I am convinced", maybe I ask you what/when might make you convinced?
21:14:30 * h01ger thinks this has become too much of a sports competition while it used to be about making the best debconf
21:15:02 <madduck-de> 20 22:06 < madduck-de> It won't hurt to give each team a bit more time to polish their bids. In the end, we want the best to win and if the best get better,  yay for debconf.
21:15:03 * harmoney agrees.
21:15:22 <wouter-mechelen> gregoa: not sure about that. Good arguments, I suppose.
21:16:06 <gregoa> wouter-mechelen: ok, makes sense, thanks. so let's wait for the arguments from all interested parties :)
21:16:22 <moray_> Well, I don't think big arguments are really going to answer this
21:16:36 <wouter-mechelen> I didn't say "big", I said "good"
21:17:16 <wouter-mechelen> I think the main reasons to hold a debconf anywhere are: price, local team, surroundings
21:17:27 <tiago> hi
21:17:48 <wouter-mechelen> a few weeks ago I wasn't convinced we could do a good price, but I think we can now. local team, we're pretty good. surroundings: mechelen is beautiful (or I wouldn't live here)
21:18:05 <h01ger> hi tiago! any new insight from you? ;)
21:18:44 <moray_> Unless all local teams agree to respect a decision by "whoever is here now non-bidding", I think we should revert to agreeing a date for the Venue decision meeting, soon, but far enough away to get DebConf Committee people to attend it
21:18:46 <wouter-mechelen> if I hear good reasons why the germany or sweden bids would be better on those three, I would withdraw. Right now we have a maybe-free venue for munich, but that seems to be not certain yet
21:19:07 <h01ger> moray_: we also need to form/wake up the committee again
21:19:08 <wouter-mechelen> anyway, yeah, that works for me
21:19:55 <madduck-de> wouter-mechelen: we have heidelberg finished and ready to go too…
21:20:00 <moray_> h01ger: right, I meant to include that in my "get people"
21:20:30 <wouter-mechelen> madduck-de: yes, I am aware of that
21:21:08 <moray_> I don't expect a very different answer in (say) two weeks from voting now, but I suspect that the bid teams would prefer the wider/deeper input to the final decision
21:21:23 <madduck-de> i think we should just toss a coin and on heads, we keep tossing until we have a winner of three, and on tails, all three have to organise a debconf in 2015
21:21:40 <marga-de> ...
21:21:43 <madduck-de> moray_: maybe not all bid teams, but more than half of them, yes.
21:21:46 <wouter-mechelen> moray_: I'm not sure about that
21:21:51 <marga-de> I think this meeting has gone on for too long.
21:21:51 * h01ger is sad that this has come to voting now, instead of discussing arguments
21:22:05 <wouter-mechelen> h01ger: I would welcome people discussing arguments, but I haven't seen that
21:22:10 <madduck-de> h01ger: sorry! ;)
21:22:46 <moray_> h01ger: well, certainly I need to leave soon, I don't have time to go into our normal discussion of points now
21:22:50 <wouter-mechelen> (and I feel like I'm the wrong person to start discussing things... I've asked a few questions, but, well)
21:23:22 <h01ger> moray_: i feel our normal process has eroded / hasnt happened this time
21:23:31 <moray_> h01ger: so I would recommend that we have that normal discussion at some close future date (e.g. two weeks)
21:23:43 <h01ger> but maybe in the next meeting..
21:23:44 <moray_> (one week could be possible, but harder to get people to attend it)
21:23:55 <madduck-de> h01ger: i think the normal process leaves a lot to be desired from the perspective of the bid teams.
21:24:33 <moray_> h01ger: *any* process has been lacking.  I see that as something to be fixed rather than to try to force a decision now that 2/3 of the teams will argue wasn't valid
21:24:34 <madduck-de> I will have a hard time attending meetings in the next four weeks. Can we try to find a date?
21:24:57 * gwolf feels so many formal structures here have eroded. But anyway...
21:25:11 <h01ger> so lets just toss a coin ;)
21:25:16 <madduck-de> moray_: agreed. I have some suggestions to share, maybe after the bid decision is complete though; and I would really suggest to lock usn in a room with the LCA people and see how they do it.
21:25:20 <RichiH-de> can we compromise on meeting in one week?
21:25:23 <h01ger> next meeting in 2 weeks?
21:25:36 <RichiH-de> i think moray_ is right in that there will not be _that_ much change
21:26:00 <madduck-de> i think we can have another meeting in 2 weeks but only iff it's guaranteed to end with a decision
21:26:13 <RichiH-de> also, as i am a newcomer, i am not sure how much debate between teams is appreciated
21:26:26 <h01ger> RichiH-de: this is debian, talk as much as you want
21:26:29 <madduck-de> i can only do 5 march. would that work for people?
21:26:30 <wouter-mechelen> I should note that I would have been happy with a decision today...
21:26:40 <madduck-de> moray_: ^
21:26:51 <wouter-mechelen> madduck-de: very difficult for me
21:27:23 <wouter-mechelen> (at least at this hour; might work if it's around 16:00 UTC)
21:27:26 * gwolf would also be happy if we decided today. Yes, we didn't form a committee, and it is a gross oversight from us
21:27:31 <brother-karlskrona> I do think that all bid teams would be ok with a decision today to be frank
21:27:34 <RichiH-de> h01ger: in that case... brother-karlskrona i would _love_ for you to bring a debconf onto the nordic tiger, but i think you need at least one more iteration
21:27:51 <brother-karlskrona> and h01ger seems to be the only one with a clear opinion (except us in bid teams)
21:28:05 <gwolf> ...And this meeting fell (almost - hi gregoa!) again into the "bidding interested parties + 3 formally addressed chairs" pattern
21:28:16 <madduck-de> \o/
21:28:21 <madduck-de> that is what chairs are *for*
21:28:22 <RichiH-de> wouter-mechelen: are you certain that all hotels will play along? what's your contingency in case one or two drop out?
21:28:29 <madduck-de> you are chairs because you make decisions. ;)
21:28:33 <wouter-mechelen> RichiH-de: we have a formal option on the hotels
21:28:36 <gregoa> gwolf: don't forget tiago :)
21:28:44 <wouter-mechelen> the price is from a formal quote
21:28:54 <gwolf> madduck-de: yes. And a long time ago I asked for the decision to renew or redraft the chairs mechanism, that is IMO inoperative
21:28:57 <moray_> please can we *not* revert to discussing the bid details now?
21:28:58 <wouter-mechelen> they could drop out, of course, but as said, there are more hotels in the city
21:29:01 <moray_> I at least need to leave very soon
21:29:02 <wouter-mechelen> moray_: sure
21:29:10 <h01ger> gwolf: gregoa: dont forget gregoa & cate!
21:29:40 <gwolf> RichiH-de: In any case, I am not as open as h01ger with my point of view. But I also see much more finalised and firm the .de proposal
21:29:41 <RichiH-de> wouter-mechelen: ok, good
21:29:51 <madduck-de> gwolf: another discussion for another day. At the moment you are chairs and the bid teams are asking you chairs for a decision, so embrace the opportunity to shape the future and write history.
21:29:53 * tiago late, still in backlogs
21:30:07 <gwolf> madduck-de: Sigh, right... :-|
21:30:10 <h01ger> wouter-mechelen: so either the mechelen team agrees the german bid is more mature and withdraws or we will need to find a meeting date.
21:30:15 <moray_> madduck-de: I rather object to making a decision by chair vote without the more detailed analysis
21:30:25 <moray_> and I definitely don't have time to start that analysis today
21:30:26 <RichiH-de> brother-karlskrona, wouter-mechelen: so, for the record, you are both OK with a decision today?
21:30:26 <h01ger> or we chairs agree on something...,
21:30:33 <RichiH-de> ?
21:30:33 <RichiH-de> 
21:30:34 <wouter-mechelen> h01ger: or that
21:30:37 <madduck-de> gwolf: for 2011, we had a similar situation and if you go back to the logs, you'll find that I made the decision then… *against* Munich. indirectly anyway
21:30:41 <wouter-mechelen> RichiH-de: yes, I am.
21:31:03 <madduck-de> moray_: I think it's much more important to get an early start than to have a detailed analysis
21:31:10 <gwolf> madduck-de: yes, several times we have had people withdraw their bids at different points in time. And that's good IMO
21:31:23 <gwolf> moray_: I also agree we don't need to get *that* much into the ugly details
21:31:30 <h01ger> moray_: besides that you dislike the chairs deciding, whats *your* opinion on .be and .de bid?
21:32:03 <moray_> h01ger: my opinion is mostly that I was meant to leave 30 minutes ago :p
21:32:11 * gwolf proposes Martinique. With taffit in Guyana.fr, we can take over the government and have our dream DebConf come true.
21:32:14 <moray_> I think the Belgium bid sounds expensive
21:32:30 <harmoney> I have a question for the Decidors.
21:32:42 * gwolf welcomes harmoney to the inner core of Decidors
21:33:05 <gwolf> I prefer more people talking and interacting rather than (at most) lurking
21:33:13 * Clint is upset that gwolf stole his joke.
21:33:19 <harmoney> mechelen and sweden both have *one* main location already determined for their bids, so if a decision is reached, we will be using one of those locations most decidedly.
21:33:33 <harmoney> Well, I'm at work, and I've been slammed, and I really don't have time to even ask the question, but I'm doing it anyway. :)
21:33:38 * gwolf names Clint the Malevolent Dictator of Northern Martinique
21:34:04 <RichiH-de> Clint: may i suggest a short and cryptic blog post to demonstrate said opinion? ;)
21:34:23 <wouter-mechelen> can we stick to the meeting please? It's getting late, I still need dinner
21:34:28 <h01ger> harmoney: whats your question?
21:34:41 <harmoney> anyway - back to my question - the German bid is exploring 2 potential venues in 2 different cities, and intends to use the bid decision to play those off each other. Are the Decidors ok with *either* of the German options presented over the other bid teams?
21:34:47 <harmoney> h01ger: I was getting to it. Be patient.
21:35:26 <gwolf> harmoney: I have a preference for Munich, as -again- it looks closer to reality
21:35:26 <h01ger> harmoney: if i weren't patient, i think i would not be here... :)
21:35:47 <moray_> h01ger: if you were patient you would have waited the extra week or two as people had agreed above :p
21:35:50 <gwolf> I don't feel there's much difference in preparation between .be, .se and .de@north options
21:35:52 <Clint> RichiH-de: there you go
21:35:53 <harmoney> gwolf: Yes, but if the German bid doesn't decide on Munich, is that, say, better than Mechelen?
21:35:55 <h01ger> and yes, both heidelberg and munich look good to me.
21:36:26 <gwolf> The four options look doable+good to me. IMO Munich looks better.
21:36:34 <hug> gwolf: I was reading backlog until now.
21:36:35 <harmoney> Is Heidelberg > Mechelen? Because, the reality is, we're not choosing Munich. We're choosing whichever city the German team lands on after the bid decision.
21:36:36 <h01ger> harmoney: i also dont think its the germans team decision, but the debconf teams decision...
21:37:14 <RichiH-de> Clint: you missed an H, but much appreciated
21:37:27 <gregoa> my personal preference of the 4 cities is heidelberg, since it's all in one place
21:37:36 * h01ger is with gregoa
21:37:43 <harmoney> That's not my quesiton.
21:37:44 <madduck-de> h01ger: surely we would not decide this ourselves, but we would have the info. so we would tell the committee about our preference and expect to be able to convince you all.
21:37:44 <harmoney> Again.
21:37:57 <h01ger> madduck-de: of course!
21:38:21 <hug> harmoney: IMO both are fine. decision will be made on which one makes a better deal.
21:38:25 <harmoney> My question is are you ok with Heidelberg *and* Munich over the other options? Because that's what you're really voting for. You're not voting (right now) on Munich *or* Heidelburg. Your'e deciding which bid team is going to lead DC15.
21:38:48 <madduck-de> exactly.
21:39:08 <brother-karlskrona> good point. in that light our bid is not strong enough at all.
21:39:23 <harmoney> h01ger and hug have answered my question. I've yet to hear affirmatives or negatives from anyone else.
21:39:48 <gwolf> harmoney: being that the question, I have a preference for the .de team, as they are a larger team (and it has been proven to be a sizeable advantage), with several people experienced as DebConf orgas (while .be has Wouter historically involved, and some FOSDEM orgas, which is also good, strong experience, and .se comes in third)
21:39:58 <harmoney> Ok.
21:40:07 <harmoney> moray_?
21:40:32 <gregoa> harmoney: (not that it's my decision/vote but ...) my preference is de (H>M) > be > se
21:40:59 <moray_> harmoney: I haven't made a final decision, I wanted to read the bids things again first.
21:41:10 <moray_> harmoney: (and now am 42 minutes late for today)
21:41:15 <tiago> i'm not sympathetic to the idea of winning then deciding city.
21:41:44 <moray_> harmoney: I'm also too hungry now to have a very rational discussion :)
21:41:49 <cate> harmoney: I prefer to see them as 4 different bids. But I can live with germany as unique bid
21:41:52 <harmoney> moray_: In which case, I don't think a decision can be made today in fairness. At least, not on DebConf delegation choice.
21:43:00 <harmoney> So, I think The Decidors should have some time to think through the meeting today, read the bids, address a couple more concerns on the list, and then select a date for Deciding.
21:43:05 <harmoney> Fair enough?
21:43:55 <madduck-de> no
21:43:58 <madduck-de> select a date now
21:44:01 <madduck-de> everything else is fine
21:44:02 <h01ger> harmoney: not really helpful
21:44:09 * RichiH-de strongly agrees with madduck-de
21:44:29 <h01ger> not helpful = redefining the process now
21:44:46 <hug> yes, please decide on decision process and deadline now.
21:44:49 <wouter-mechelen> yes, I agree, selecting a date now would be best
21:45:01 <gwolf> h01ger: but yes, reality pushes that way
21:45:05 <marga-de> Uhm, I don't agree, I do think it's helpful.  It's not realistic to make a decision today, ok.  But please let's put a date and decide at that date
21:45:07 <harmoney> h01ger: I'm sorry, I didn't realize I was redefining the process. I was pretty sure this *was* the process based on what the DC14 bid teams went through last year.
21:45:21 <gwolf> h01ger: I think harmoney presented important questions (and I guess the bid teams will take them into account)
21:45:27 <harmoney> So, back to my suggestion - how about select a date for The Decision and move forward.
21:45:38 <gwolf> So... One week from now to decide?
21:46:03 <h01ger> 2 is better and afaics there is no real pressing hurry, or?
21:46:24 <h01ger> we also need time to form the committee
21:46:28 <h01ger> or revive it
21:46:31 <moray_> either is fine for me personally (I think); 2 gives more time to get committee people (to ask questions etc.)
21:46:36 <h01ger> any volunteers to do that?
21:46:45 <gwolf> I don't know there will be much more questions.
21:46:52 <moray_> gwolf: I hope not
21:46:58 <gwolf> I'd go for one week
21:47:01 * h01ger facepalms
21:47:04 <gwolf> But I won't be more stubborn than usual.
21:47:25 <madduck-de> gwolf: I don't agree with harmoney 100% and I think that the mere fact that we went with a backup from the start is a plus for the team. Asking us to trump all other bids with both locations is a bit over the top, but it's a helpful way to look at things, and we're not scared of it.
21:47:29 <moray_> gwolf: one week sounds unrealistic to get everyone (where "everyone" is yet to be gathered) to schedule it in their calendars
21:47:54 <madduck-de> h01ger: the hurry is simply that the real world out there wonders what's taking us so long
21:47:55 <h01ger> next week or the week after, in both cases i have no idea where i'll be then, so both dates are equally fine. its easier to arrage free time long term though
21:48:06 <gwolf> two weeks then it is.
21:48:07 <madduck-de> haha
21:48:08 <moray_> now, you could also argue for a weekend to be better for more timezones, but this time is better for me personally
21:48:28 <gwolf> h01ger: (get ready for a 3hr meeting hten...)
21:49:01 <tiago> two weeks then?
21:49:05 <h01ger> gwolf: maaaybe. solo estoy tonto a veces.
21:49:14 <madduck-de> i will not be here on 6 march at this time
21:49:19 <gwolf> h01ger: speak for yourself ;-)
21:49:26 <moray_> madduck-de: but your bid has many people
21:49:33 <gwolf> madduck-de: ... I hope the whole bid does not depend on a single person ;-)
21:49:34 <madduck-de> but it's okay, we are a team and if RichiH-de and/or marga-de and/or azeem are here, that's ok
21:49:38 <h01ger> 7nick pollito
21:49:39 <harmoney> madduck-de: My reasoning for making sure people view both cities as distinct possibilities is to basically prepare for the worst. If someone has serious objections to one of the cities, and they still support the de bid, it *will* cause flamewars later.
21:49:52 <RichiH-de> i will make time no matter what
21:49:54 <harmoney> madduck-de: I'm doing my best to help people prepare for the worst - thats' all.
21:49:55 <moray_> #agreed Venue decision meeting at same time in two weeks.
21:49:58 <madduck-de> harmoney: we like flamewars. we handle them.
21:50:09 <h01ger> and...
21:50:12 <gwolf> harmoney: I don't think we will have last year's flamefest this time...
21:50:14 <h01ger> the comittee?
21:50:32 <h01ger> #info thats march, 6th, 20 UTC
21:50:39 <moray_> h01ger: I can send a list mail about it, then I guess it's us chairs to decide it
21:50:49 <tiago> there'll be no flames
21:50:54 * h01ger nods, works for me
21:51:34 <moray_> #topic Meeting end
21:51:40 <moray_> So can we finish?
21:51:47 <moray_> for today, I mean :)
21:52:14 <wouter-mechelen> sure
21:52:19 <tiago> moray_, you finish, then ask
21:52:22 <tiago> :p
21:52:25 <moray_> #endmeeting