20:00:36 #startmeeting 20:00:36 Meeting started Thu Jul 28 20:00:36 2016 UTC. The chair is highvoltage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:00:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:00:47 Agenda: https://cryptpad.fr/p/#JVllyL3qWwDR9mDQmfmNCN9n 20:01:02 we could indeed skip the chair part 20:01:17 we have a big agenda, let's get on with it 20:01:18 #topic New members welcome 20:01:24 \0 20:01:27 o/ 20:01:28 o/ 20:01:29 \o/ 20:01:29 Hi 20:01:32 /o/ 20:01:35 *wave* 20:01:36 \o\ 20:01:37 o/ 20:01:40 \o 20:01:56 o/ 20:01:57 * madduck . 20:02:07 (very far away) 20:02:08 so, to new members: welcome! 20:02:09 * luca is here 20:02:10 tvaz: ?? 20:02:16 lavamind: thanks! next topic? 20:02:22 hoi 20:02:26 o/ 20:02:32 anyone new actually there? 20:02:33 if you have any questions, about anything, feel free to ask me by email 20:02:38 I meant, 20:02:42 #topic New meeting schedule and remote participation 20:02:50 nattie: it doesn't seem so 20:03:13 well, I laid out some options for meeting on the pad 20:03:27 Thursday 10pm UCT seems good 20:03:29 really the most important thing is for MTL people to be there. We can discuss this endlessly and everyone will have preferences, but in the end, if you have a regular schedule that works for MTL, you'll be surprised how the rest of us will manage to fit in. 20:03:30 I'm in favor of option 1 20:03:35 I like option #1 20:03:35 I think some things can only be done on IRC 20:04:07 for venue-related issues, and other things that only really need discussion within the local team, you can get away with in-person meetings 20:04:22 we seem to have lots of people on today, I suggest maybe we keep this schedule for IRC meetings every two weeks? 20:04:23 but if you include everyone, I think it'll build stronger teams 20:04:28 * LeLutin likes #1 too. also would be happy about some kind of fixed date/interval 20:04:41 I've never seen mixed real-life / remote meetings work very well 20:04:48 lavamind: sounds good 20:04:49 10pm? i thought 8pm? 20:04:52 they do not, olasd. 20:04:55 btw we already have a potluck lined up for the local team 20:04:56 Something always slips through 20:04:59 I like short meetings, any option is fine, 20:05:02 even when the real-life team does very good real-time note-taking 20:05:03 nattie: 2000 UTC, as in now. 20:05:18 yeah, that'll be, i'm sure, a typo on DLange's part 20:05:19 olasd: they are very tough to make work correctly. there's always stuff said in real life that doesn't move to IRC 20:05:21 yeah, 10pm CEST 20:05:30 I also go in favor of fixed meetings, but I can't commit atm since I don't have my univesity schedule yet 20:05:32 ETIMEZONE 20:05:36 next meeting would be august 11 at 20:00 UTC 20:05:51 DLange: Well UCT time is 10pm at the moment :) 20:06:02 pollo: you're important, so when your university schedule is released, we can adapt again 20:06:05 ooh, hi Squishie 20:06:08 paddatrapper++ 20:06:25 hey nattie 20:06:26 pollo: I agree, the current schedule would be subject to adjustment obiously 20:06:37 sounds like everybody agrees for option 1 and a fixed schedule of thursdays 8PM UTC 20:06:45 once every second thursday 20:06:51 \0/ 20:06:52 until MTL changes it. 20:07:02 so is it agreed that we'll continue at every second thursday at 20:00 UTC until further notice? 20:07:06 yes 20:07:10 is every 2nd thursday often enough? (if work only happens before / after meetings) 20:07:16 highvoltage: yes 20:07:20 tumbleweed: for now yes 20:07:25 tumbleweed: I agree should be very week it seems to work well 20:07:28 That's actually quite often. 20:07:29 sounds good to me 20:07:34 # agreed IRC meetings will continue every 2nd Thursday at 20:00 UTC on #debconf-team on oftc until further notice 20:07:39 #agreed IRC meetings will continue every 2nd Thursday at 20:00 UTC on #debconf-team on oftc until further notice 20:07:42 tumbleweed: work will happen on other days, not worried about that 20:07:49 OK :) 20:07:54 tumbleweed: this far out I think it's reasonable, but it should probably be tightened up closer to the conf 20:08:03 +1 20:08:08 +1 20:08:08 we will announce local flesh meetups on the list 20:08:19 hmm, flesh 20:08:21 flesh meetups, tasty 20:08:22 meatspace 20:08:34 in the country, in the flesh 20:08:35 do make an effort to send reports of those to the list for transparency reasons. 20:08:37 * highvoltage takes that as a queue for a topic change 20:08:40 #topic Team roles review & membership 20:08:48 * tumbleweed hopes to attend one of those :) 20:08:52 *cue 20:09:04 ginggs: ah yes, indeed. 20:09:04 you're the meat, tumbleweed :) 20:09:05 ginggs: how do you know there's not a huge line forming? 20:09:27 yo people, fill out the wiki for the roles: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf17/LocalTeamRoles 20:09:30 tumbleweed: would be happy to have you around sometime :) 20:09:33 nattie: we're not all british 20:09:33 the sign up page has seen some action lately 20:09:45 regarding team roles, I think it's important to identify 1–2 MTL drivers for each of the roles and publish those names, so that whenever anyone wants to help out, they know whom to talk to 20:09:45 why aren't we talking about governance? at the very least to let newbies like me know what's what 20:09:50 #action < pollo> yo people, fill out the wiki for the roles: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf17/LocalTeamRoles 20:10:06 if it's still being worked on, that's fine; just say so 20:10:07 highvoltage: #action or #info? 20:10:18 luca: it's being worked on. 20:10:37 we've had comments that the info on the page could be clearer, so until we fix that, feel free to ask about any of the roles here 20:10:39 luca: yeah, I think we skipped that for this meeting 20:10:42 nattie: action seems to better imply that someone has to do something 20:10:52 highvoltage: fair enough 20:11:00 Signup == Lead(s) 20:11:04 Cooperation == Helpers 20:11:14 oh, in that case i'd better move my thing in the wiki 20:11:20 lavamind: might help to change the headers. It wasn't clear to me. 20:11:31 lavamind: ditto 20:11:45 lavamind: should we bug martin to be signup on network instead of helper? 20:11:49 o_O no video team 20:11:52 RACI-style would be good 20:11:52 and maybe the order? 20:11:55 madduck: I don,t think we'll have enought people to fill out the whole team roles with local team though 20:12:10 Responsible, Accountable, Consulted, Informed 20:12:11 LeLutin: I'll poke him about it 20:12:27 pollo: some roles have natural born drivers 20:12:45 Responsible = helpers; Accountable = lead 20:13:11 luca: it's not clear whether lead actually has to do the work 20:13:13 tumbleweed: video team is an entity on his own, like bursaries 20:13:18 according to RACI he/she doesn't 20:13:33 if i understood the concept correctly 20:13:34 lead == responsible. come on! ;) 20:13:41 lavamind: with RACI, you put names in both R and A if the lead also does work 20:13:42 cate: registration too? 20:13:44 cate: registration team is too, but is listed 20:13:48 responsible includes keeping helpers on board… 20:13:53 olasd: and no cheese team 20:14:02 luca: seems a bit convoluted for our purposes 20:14:11 for the moment, neither cheese nor registration have much to do. 20:14:12 good thing it isn't a standard :) 20:14:14 olasd, tumbleweed: rgistration need a lot of contacts with other teams, local venue, etc. 20:14:19 tumbleweed: cheese team is too important for a mere wiki page! 20:14:30 tumbleweed: would it be overkill to add another heading and table for video team? 20:14:35 * tumbleweed is derailling conversation, and stops it 20:14:41 can someone take the action to work on team wiki clarity? 20:14:44 normally we shoudl see everyone's names on this page 20:14:49 but I think the point is that this used to bea local teams list, and has grown 20:14:52 so it is missing some bits 20:14:53 luca: especially since accountable and responsible mean the same thing ;) 20:15:10 highvoltage: Maybe just a link to the videoteam page with signup? 20:15:13 madduck: i refer the gentleperson to PMI 20:15:26 pollo: someone who knows the intention behind that page should, yes 20:15:52 i'm happy to work on the wiki but i'll make it smell RACI-like 20:15:52 can we agree on the fact that this list is now more than "mtl team" list? 20:15:56 the intention was to have a quick overview of who's committed to doing what 20:15:59 #action (action is up for grabs) improve clarity of TeamRoles page and ensure all types of work are on there 20:16:16 and move the page, without "Local" on title 20:16:21 pollo: it certainly doesn't look local 20:16:26 cate: that's already been done, i think 20:16:31 however since then I have seen that there's overlap with https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Teams 20:16:40 right. 20:16:42 highvoltage: I just grabbed and fixed the first bit of that 20:16:50 cate: there should be a redirect... https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf17/TeamRoles 20:17:26 lavamind: yes, I noticed later. i was checking only the URL 20:17:31 someone inverted the headers but not the content 20:17:33 It might be better to drop the global teams, and keep only the ones that serve a function for the local team organization. 20:17:39 lavamind: that Teams page is probably outdated. Don't follow it blindly. Whatever works for you… 20:17:58 highvoltage: can you #action me on making it clearer? 20:18:03 madduck: some bits obviously are outdated, not everything 20:18:07 so no objections to the statement that that wiki page is for the entire team, not just the local team? 20:18:10 maxy: I don't agree with that 20:18:17 lavamind: sure. 20:18:20 highvoltage: none from me 20:18:25 fresh local teams often don't even know what existing teams there are in debconf 20:18:38 I certainly missed a few, and I've been around for a while 20:18:39 #action pollo will work on and clear up https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf17/TeamRoles 20:19:02 that doesn't mean it has to list all the membership of all the teams, but pointing at leaders is useful 20:19:02 calendar? 20:19:06 #agreed https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf17/TeamRoles is used for the entire DC17 team. 20:19:23 #topic Making a calendar for the year 20:19:33 "DC16 had a timeline for the whole year (https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Timeline). Making something similar would be a very good idea" 20:19:45 great, IMHO the best way to make on is to meat in meatspace in MTL over some beers 20:19:58 i'll be happy to work with people on that. I think it's the most important resource we can create for DebConf orga. 20:19:58 I wouldn't spend a huge amount of time on it. But yes, you should copy-paste and read through it 20:20:00 highvoltage: not that it was really stuck too? Was it? 20:20:01 This should be done off-meeting and commented in mailing list/next meeting 20:20:16 cate: that was my intention yesy 20:20:21 highvoltage: but def very good to have 20:20:32 tumbleweed: why? can't we stick to it? 20:20:41 pollo: you'll quickly fall off it , and never refer to it again 20:20:48 tamo: I'm missing some context, what was (or wasn't) stuck? 20:20:49 * Hydroxide realized that the meeting may be here and not in #debian-quebec - hello to #-team for the first time in years. 20:20:55 it's useful to plan your road ahead now, but it isn't worth a huge investment 20:21:05 highvoltage: the timeline 20:21:12 Hy droxide 20:21:14 pollo: it's far from being reliable as in authoritative of sorts. It needs work, and dc17 will contribute your part, and we'll keep improving it beyond that 20:21:23 I chances are this timeline won't be complete, but it should help give a good direction to what's needed when 20:21:30 s/I // 20:21:36 it's also a good opporutinity to tweak things 20:21:38 tamo: ah right. yes, there were mixed results. 20:21:39 LeLutin: yup important I think 20:21:45 if someone wants to work on it 20:21:55 now would be a good time to volunteer 20:22:03 madduck does, so do i 20:22:03 so I agree with tumbleweed that it shouldn't govern your work too much, but I'd still like to create such a resource long-term. And stick to it, of course, if possible, or else it needs to be fixed. 20:22:03 i.e. the perennial problem of how we get bursaries done long enough in advance to buy cheap flights, without being too early for people to commit 20:22:22 the whole registration + bursary timeframe needs to be carefully worked out 20:22:31 but I'd like another mtler at least 20:22:33 it's the most critical timeline you'll have to stick to 20:22:44 agreed 20:22:45 #info the whole registration + bursary timeframe needs to be carefully worked out 20:22:49 tumbleweed: +1 20:22:55 yeah, it needs to be: register, bursaries, book flights, visa 20:23:03 tumbleweed: yes, but it would not hurt to have things like "t-shirt quotes" in there early as it might mean someone with spare time picks it up early. 20:23:10 pollo: I could help out with the timeline 20:23:17 \0/ 20:23:32 #action LeLutin to help out with the timeline 20:23:33 madduck: I think doing everything as soon as possible is a reasonable approach (which never happens :P ) 20:23:35 great, we now have a calendar team 20:23:49 highvoltage: +pollo +madduck 20:23:53 pollo, LeLutin, one of you create & assign this task to yourself on Kanboard and give it a 30 day timeframe 20:24:02 and the "venue need the exact numbers", "venue needs good estimate" and so on, so we can change registration and other timeliens 20:24:08 LeLutin: I'm happy to help with the registrations bits of that 20:24:16 lavamind: will do, I'm already logged 20:24:17 lavamind: I plan on assigning all the tasks on Kanboard after the meeting 20:24:20 lavamind: the initial version, ok. There won't be a final version. The task will be endless ;) 20:24:21 #action pollo and madduck to work on timeline as well 20:24:29 madduck: indeed 20:24:36 pollo: ok then I wait and we'll add this after meeting 20:24:41 next topic 20:24:45 #topic Launching sponsorship drive 20:24:55 aviau: ping! 20:25:02 fundraising drive ;) 20:25:03 lavamind: we tried to let people assign themselves on Kanboard and they don't, so I'll do it 20:25:10 how's the sponsorship brochure coming along? 20:25:20 fundraising brochure ;) 20:25:34 same thing :) 20:25:37 oh wow that question again /o\ 20:25:38 and we need a placeholder website up :P (presumably blocked on me a bit) 20:25:40 could someone send a reminder on the list about using this sponsorship list 20:25:51 Christina from MTL was also interested for this, but I haven,t heard back from her yet 20:25:55 I lost the git URL and I think I remember seeing a wiki page about it 20:26:01 but I couldn't find the info 20:26:23 tumbleweed: a website stub would be of great help indeed 20:26:25 madduck and aviau are assigned to work on a sponsorship brochure 20:26:33 oh? 20:26:41 flyer 20:26:49 lavamind: use the sponsorship list for... a contact point for sponsors? a place to work on fundraising? 20:27:18 highvoltage: fundraising 20:27:40 how to look at who is point on which sponsors, etc 20:27:45 indiebio also wanted to work on fundraising 20:27:46 lavamind: the brochure needs a local to invest 1–2 hours to beef it up with relevant text and update quotes. I considered my work done, just to fix up expectations… 20:27:58 should taht website be setup on debconf17.debconf.org or some other place? 20:28:01 madduck: I'll ping aviau then 20:28:04 madduck: so this is done? https://debconf17-kanboard.univers-libre.net/project/2/task/28 20:28:11 LeLutin: yes 20:28:27 #info reminder that debconf-sponsors list is the place to discuss fundraising topics 20:28:35 LeLutin: on debconf17.debconf.org is better. We can keep it forever 20:28:48 cate: ok great 20:29:06 #action pollo to ping aviau about fundraising flyer / brochure 20:29:20 not sure why this bit hasn't progressed since dc16 20:29:30 life 20:29:42 lavamind: can't look. My account doesn't work anymore. I created a compiling tex base with most info and some TODOs 20:29:45 rm life 20:29:51 this topic contains some items that will need further discussion some later time. 20:29:55 madduck: use the reset password link 20:30:08 lavamind: of course. 20:30:19 cate: echo debconf > life you meant? ;) 20:30:28 tumbleweed: do you want to work on the website stub? 20:30:48 pollo: I can get the infrastructure up, but I'm not a website design person 20:30:50 you have access to the debconf servers & all 20:30:53 unless you like the 90s web 20:30:57 * highvoltage did a website stub last time and it wasn't very fancy but will be happy to do it again 20:30:59 tumbleweed: ++ 20:31:05 tumbleweed: a 90s web stub is fine 20:31:11 tumbleweed: I can always help with teh deisgn if you need it? 20:31:22 tumbleweed: I was planning to get involved with the website but I'm unfortunately not a design person either 20:31:34 can't we ask superfly to make a us single-pager? 20:31:36 get the content up and let people work on design in parallel 20:31:37 we really need someone to play the role superfly did last year 20:31:41 tamo and I are happy to work on the design part 20:31:44 lavamind: How can I create my accound on the kanboard? 20:31:52 nitrane: coming up 20:31:56 * superfly 's ears burn 20:32:03 lavamind: yes def! 20:32:04 who da fly? he da fly! 20:32:08 tumbleweed: he set a high standard, but we can also make websites of the 90s and the conference will work ;) 20:32:20 yep 20:32:21 superfly: ah, I was just about to ask tumbleweed if we have you again this year :) 20:32:31 and you shouldn't block on a pretty website for fundraising. That was a mistake we made 20:32:36 tumbleweed: during dc16 I said I could take on superfly's role for the website 20:32:51 I can help, but I'm not going to be "full time" 20:32:55 sensible :) 20:32:59 LeLutin: can we action you on dc17.d.o then? 20:33:04 cool. 20:33:05 pollo: yep 20:33:07 * superfly has a lot to sort out in the next year 20:33:32 highvoltage: action me too 20:33:54 great. having more than 1 person is going to help me getting bootstrapped :) 20:34:06 #action LeLution responsible for dc17.d.o, superfly can help out, tumbleweed is doing stub and general webiness 20:34:18 so regarding fundraising, I think the brochure should get done and then we have a fundraising meeting to kickstart. 20:34:41 madduck: action on getting a meeting going? 20:34:42 I'd be glad to shadow tumbleweed on the code/deployment part of the website to avoid a unit bus factor 20:34:54 i am happy to help aviau or whomever to make it happen, but I am about to leave for holidays, so time is limited. 20:35:04 lavamind: once the brochure is done; yes. 20:35:12 ok 20:35:13 yeah. better bug aviau to get the brochure first 20:35:22 me and pollo with bug aviau about it 20:35:41 next topic? 20:35:47 this has to be done within the next week or so 20:35:49 #action pollo: get in touch with aviau regarding sponsorship brochure 20:36:00 #topic Content team participation 20:36:00 madduck: do you need help on the design of the brochure or are you doing your own thing? Happy to help there too 20:36:16 as you can see, no one on the wiki for the content team yet 20:36:33 I'm planning to work on the content team. 20:36:34 is anyone from MTL down for this? 20:36:44 tamo: this year the sponsorship brochure is in LaTeX, so... we need latex gurus more than a designer 20:36:50 is wendar on board for dc17 content team? 20:36:55 cate: ah ok 20:37:01 But it's still not clear to me if I need to add myself to the wiki.. 20:37:12 maxy: yes! 20:37:26 afaict no one from Mtl is on content yet 20:37:27 isn't there an existing content team? shouldn't that team drive the recruiting? 20:37:29 tamo: (brochure) I am a content person with interest to have something to send around ASAP. If you want to brush it up, we'll likely switch to it. 20:37:32 I can be mtl on content too 20:37:43 but not lead 20:37:55 I'm external to this so I'm sorry if I ask a possibly dumb question 20:37:56 highvoltage: no, she'll help with the sponsors team 20:38:07 madduck: okidoke well as soon as you have the content then great 20:38:10 maxy: yes. add yourself. I am also interested in working on content. 20:38:24 tamo: you can start already. That's the magic of LaTeX… ;) 20:38:27 is there a list I should suscribe to? 20:38:51 pollo: ask Ganneff. it is an alias 20:38:53 madduck: cool will chat to you out of meeting are you available tomorrow? 20:38:56 pollo: it's an alias I think. We'll have to give Ganneff the list… 20:39:21 tamo: please just try to ping, or leave a note and I'll get back to you. 20:39:22 probably the current members of the alias should collegially do that? 20:39:29 But if it is enough to signup to wiki to enter in a team... you will get surprises.. 20:39:39 madduck: sure thing! 20:39:40 #info content team mail contact is an alias, list of updated members can be handed to Ganneff 20:39:48 I think you need a lead and then select people who can work together 20:40:03 highvoltage: I don't think that's correct 20:40:17 hmm, now how do I uninfo something 20:40:17 I think this relates to topic #9 and it'd be great if a local took the lead. 20:40:27 you don't. 20:40:30 because nobody else seems to be taking lead 20:40:45 #info (UNDO) content team mail contact is an alias, list of updated members can be handed to Ganneff 20:40:51 (just doing it outlook style then) 20:41:00 haha 20:41:21 tvaz, poke? 20:41:22 well, we are 3 atm so I guess we'll see 20:41:25 let's ask azeem (who is not online yet) 20:41:40 I don't think it was clear that the page was for global teams to sign up too; while I have no idea if any of the current team members want to lead I don't think you should replace them just yet 20:41:47 pollo, lavamind: I suppose topic #9 can then be deferred to the next meeting. 20:42:05 highvoltage: yes 20:42:11 +1 20:42:12 olasd: wasn't it discussed in person at the handover session, and there weren't people? I may be misremembering, though 20:42:13 olasd: nobody is being replaced. But yes, highvoltage, #info that the current team needs to be consulted. 20:42:18 #topic hosting Owncloud/Nextcloud & Kanboard on the Debconf servers 20:42:33 woot, Kanboard is nice 20:42:44 Owncloud can be replaced by storm Davros though 20:42:54 no objections from us on moving these to debconf infra 20:43:07 can we operate with existing hosting for dc17 and see if it works and only then impose work on infra? 20:43:15 +1 to that 20:43:37 but aren't debconf machines being moved to DSA this year? 20:43:38 we can 20:43:43 #agreed local team agrees that cloud file storage and kanboard should live on DC infra 20:43:45 pollo: they have been for 5 years ;) 20:43:46 pollo: "this year" :P 20:44:01 I just think we need to do it before 20:44:03 only some services. I don't think we can move all to DSA 20:44:10 pollo: why? 20:44:28 madduck: to be clear on what services we need? 20:44:40 the keyword is "should", not "must" nor "shall" 20:44:49 I'd feel bad arriving 1 year later with a bunch of new stuf for them to host 20:44:51 well, for now, we are going to try to use kanboard, right? 20:45:04 yup 20:45:05 pollo: but then it'd be for dc18 20:45:28 I tend to agree that the best time to move these things is in between dc's 20:45:35 and we kinda agreed in person that Git is the place where development happens, if possible, and we use owncloud for file exchange for now? 20:45:41 kanboard runs on storm.d.n as well, just sayin' 20:45:48 we still have a small amount of tasks in kanboard. if it's possible to get an instance on dc infra we can hand-move what is already there 20:45:50 DLange: wekan does 20:45:51 and there's wekan on storm 20:45:52 lavamind: it only makes sense to move them if we as a team can work with them. 20:45:53 madduck: that has been agreed officially, actually 20:45:54 not kanboard 20:45:59 owncloud is so that we don't end up with a monstrous git again 20:45:59 lavamind: good. 20:46:10 o.k., pollo 20:46:11 highvoltage: sounds good indeed. 20:46:31 similar but not the same (functionaliy wise) 20:46:40 wekan is much simpler 20:46:44 and slower 20:46:49 on storm 20:47:00 I've looked at Davros and I really like it. I think we should scrap Owncloud 20:47:05 let's not dwell on infra any more 20:47:10 storm isn't making things fast exactly (DO VM) 20:47:31 pollo: set it up, get people to use it instead if you can. 20:47:33 at DC15, it was determined that DSA should be more involved with DC infra; some work was done; but work has stalled; at DC16 DSA BOF, we mentioned that we would like to proceed with completing the migration 20:47:34 pollo: we would lose common logins 20:47:46 Davros & Owncloud are more like caches for us. So we can switch easily. 20:47:47 this takes willingness on the part of DC folks 20:47:50 s/are/should be/ 20:48:02 I think the vim vs emacs of kanboard software and file hosting can be continued off-meeting. 20:48:09 #info you can use your Kanboard account to log in the DC17 ownCloud instance https://debconf17-owncloud.univers-libre.net 20:48:24 luca: I am not trying to stop you, just trying to prevent you from having to do work that might not pay off. 20:48:55 madduck: i get that; i'm saying that even the existing stuff is stuck 20:49:04 madduck: let alone introducing new stuff 20:49:09 luca: I think DC folks are generally very interested moving stuff for sake of reliability 20:49:12 madduck: so this needs A Plan 20:49:15 luca: the problem is that nobody know exactly what it means. For us dc machines are black boxes 20:49:44 should we organise a meeting in the next month to talk about this? 20:50:01 i think you guys should work on dc17 primarily. 20:50:02 DSA are willing to apply bleach as necessary to achieve transparency and redundancy 20:50:03