12:58:41 <pwaring> #startmeeting
12:58:41 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Dec  8 12:58:41 2023 UTC.  The chair is pwaring. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:58:41 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:58:53 <pwaring> #topic Roll call
12:59:06 <pwaring> if everyone can say something ('hi' is fine), that lets us know who is actualyl here :)_
12:59:15 <jmw> hi
12:59:18 * nattie summons the small bread product as usual
12:59:18 <olasd> hi (for the Brest bid)
12:59:23 * gwolf is Gunnar Wolf (DebConf Committee)
12:59:25 <pwaring> then we'll ask each team to present + allow questions (if that's okay with everyone)
12:59:26 <paddatrapper> o/
12:59:27 <youngbin[m]1> hello
12:59:31 * tumbleweed is Stefano Rivera (DebConf Committee)
12:59:34 <weepingclown> hi :)
12:59:42 <Roul[m]> hi
12:59:42 * jmkim is Jongmin, here for Korea
12:59:50 <yeonguk[m]> Hello!!
12:59:54 <changwoo[m]> hello, Changwoo Ryu, for Korea team
12:59:57 * pwaring is not on the committee, just for clarity
12:59:57 <GyeongtaekKim[m]1> hi
12:59:57 <DLange> 'hi' is fine # DD from Germany, DebConf15 & 16 local team, former DebConf Committee member
13:00:13 * nattie remains Nattie (on Committee and general observatrix)
13:00:14 <santiago> hi
13:00:20 <jmw> DLange: I was tempted :)
13:00:21 <andralves> Hi, from Aveiro, Portugal :)
13:00:31 <youngbin[m]1> youngbin is Youngbin, here for Korea
13:00:35 * h01ger is just h01ger here
13:00:36 * santiago is Santiago, for the Brest, FR bid
13:00:51 * urbec is not here
13:01:27 * tumbleweed is having breakfast :P
13:01:41 <yeonguk[m]> My name is yeonguk, Korea team
13:01:43 <nattie> urbec: are you over there instead?
13:01:50 <urbec> haha
13:01:51 * jmw is Jonathan for the Birmingham bid
13:01:57 <indiebio> Hi
13:02:10 <pwaring> ok, we'll go through the bids one by one, in the order of response to the meeting announcement poll: Korea, Portugal, France, UK
13:02:17 <pwaring> #topic Korea bid
13:03:06 <indiebio> Hi from Diogo who is rebooting his server and from Ginggs who just finished a smoke
13:03:24 <jmkim> Hello, we are the Busan bid team. We picked PKNU as our venue in Busan.
13:03:27 <pwaring> so if Team Korea can tell us a bit about their bid, then we'll be open for questions (and 10-12 minutes per bid in total)
13:03:44 <jmkim> Busan is a big and lively city in South Korea. It's in the southeast part of Korea, by the ocean. People also call it the "Summer Capital" because it's known for its nice beaches, well-known tourist spots and warm weather.
13:03:56 <jmkim> Local team has a lot of experience in organizing the FOSS events. And, we have a strong connection in PKNU. Jongmin and Woohee are an alumni and have organized multiple intl confs with the school, with their supervisor Prof. Song, who is willing to participate as a local team.
13:04:03 <EnkelenaH[m]> hi
13:04:39 <ginggs> o/
13:04:52 * Roul[m] is Roul, here for Korea
13:04:57 <akash[m]12> Hi
13:05:01 * youngbin[m]1 * is Youngbin, here for Korea
13:05:18 <akash[m]12> *akashsanthosh was a part of Debconf23 local team.
13:05:22 <gwolf> FWIW -- Wiki page for the Busan (Korea) bid → https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/24/Bids/Korea
13:05:24 <hacksk[m]> Hi
13:05:50 <nattie> hi!
13:05:55 <gwolf> (so we don't have to repeat everything  and can focus on "interactive-needed" stuff )
13:06:08 <DiogoConstantino> sorry my router rebooted
13:06:24 <tumbleweed> jmkim: thanks for a pretty comprehensive bid. It looks like a lot of work has gone into it already
13:06:56 <tumbleweed> so, the biggest concern I have with the venue is that there's only 1 large talk room
13:07:22 * h01ger was quite very impressed by this bid
13:07:24 <gwolf> yes, looks like a very solid bidding document! I wasn't there in India, but I understand you proposed the venue originally for DC25, right?
13:07:31 <nattie> yes
13:07:42 <jmkim> tumbleweed: There are theatre rooms with 100~200 seats. However, unlike the 40~70 people classrooms which are free in charge, reserving those needs money, about USD 200 a day.
13:07:47 <why> Hello, I'm Woohee Yang in Korean local team
13:07:58 <weepingclown> I believe the actual plan was for 26, which ended up being presented for 25, which now turned yo 24 :)
13:08:09 <tumbleweed> jmkim: OK, it could be worth looking at getting one of those, too
13:08:27 <gwolf> jmkim: USD200 a day is absolutely reasonable -- and IMO we'll need some of htose places
13:08:39 <jmw> $200x10 days sounds very reasonable
13:09:05 <gwolf> I feel the proposed number of beds (100 or 180?) might be a bit low. I suppose you are accounting for many people to take accomodation in hotels nearby?
13:09:38 <pwaring> (5 mins left on this bid)
13:10:36 <gwolf> weepingclown: OK, good :-) We often ask bidding teams if they feel they'd be willing to resubmit for yr+1 if they were not selected. Based on your answer, I guess you'd be willing?
13:10:38 <changwoo[m]> these extra 100~200 sized rooms are in another building about 200 meters away. that's one thing to consider.
13:11:10 <tumbleweed> changwoo[m]: right. It is very nice to have everything together like this
13:12:03 <gwolf> changwoo[m]: Maybe I should rephrase. What would be the ideal DebConf size you are catering for? How many people would you be expecting for the bid as you envisioned it?
13:12:30 <changwoo[m]> about the dorm room, there' re much more available rooms. the staff didn't tell the exact number. but 400+ rooms are available
13:12:53 <jmkim> gwolf: For budgeting, we wrote with 100 or 180 beds. Dorm rooms are provisionally reserved for 400 beds (200 rooms), with ~USD 31 per room per night.
13:13:09 <changwoo[m]> just we pick number 180 based on previous debconfs for budget
13:13:30 <gwolf> OK, good point; please (later!) update the Wiki page to mention availability of more accom space if needed
13:13:38 <pwaring> (1 min left on this bid, please wrap up :)
13:14:52 <jmkim> For more, we are thinking our strength is availability. The places (venue and the dorm) are all within 100m maximum. Local team is experienced in organizing international conferences.
13:15:03 <pwaring> thanks for the questions/replies, we'll move on to Portugal now to make sure everyone has the same amount of time
13:15:11 <pwaring> and that we finish by 14:00
13:15:14 <gwolf> jmkim: thanks!
13:15:18 <pwaring> #topic Portugal bid
13:16:09 <indiebio> Hi from Portugal. The team is represented by andralves, DiogoConstantino, myself and ginggs, and Jose who is not on IRC, but who is less active because his main involvement would have been Lisbon
13:16:25 <indiebio> We propose the University of Aveiro, in Portugal for 2024.
13:16:58 <nattie> indiebio: Jose is here
13:17:07 <nattie> under his surname
13:17:17 <indiebio> Portugal is in Western Europe, Aveiro is a university town, and while still very well connected to airports, road and rail, is small enough to have a good, affordable experience
13:17:33 * indiebio waves at calhariz
13:18:00 <gwolf> FWIW, Aveiro → North Portugal, ~¾ of the way between Lisboa (South) and Porto (North), the two major cities in the country
13:18:32 <indiebio> The university has excellent speaking venues, and a variety of accommodation options. Rather than rehash the bid, I would appreciate specific questions
13:19:47 <indiebio> And to pre-empt the 2025 question, while we support everyone's chance to host DebConf in 2024, andralves is a student at U Aveiro, planning to graduate this year, so 2025 could be harder for us as we would have to establish a new local relationship
13:19:57 <tumbleweed> any ideas of costs yet?
13:20:04 <tumbleweed> the bid is light on details, and there's no checklist yet
13:20:35 <indiebio> No. other than that we are confident it would be affordable.
13:20:54 <gwolf> Same question I asked for KR: I know it's hard to estimate, but how many people do you forsee attending your ideal conf?
13:21:06 <indiebio> We are an established team and would like to book things rather than do the runaround twice by getting quotes first
13:21:17 <gwolf> indiebio: and any stab at what "affordable" means? Food- and accom-wise?
13:21:22 <indiebio> gwolf: We could easily accommodate 300, we could handle 700 too
13:21:48 <pwaring> (5 mins left on this bid)
13:21:50 <gwolf> FWIW all bids are in "developed" countries, so I'd estimate costs for food+accom not to differ too wildly...
13:21:51 <tumbleweed> indiebio: it's very hard to approve a bid if we don't know what the costs will be
13:21:54 <indiebio> DiogoConstantino, andralves, do you have numbers for what Ubucon cost?
13:22:20 <tumbleweed> not exctly, but ballpark
13:22:23 * gwolf just hopes not to have 700 people ;-) but that's just me
13:22:33 * nattie agrees with gwolf
13:22:42 <tumbleweed> gwolf: that kind of depends on what kind of accommodation we get
13:22:48 <tumbleweed> university dorms for free vs hotels
13:23:17 <DiogoConstantino> FSL, Ubucon PT, was inside FSL, we managed to have lunch at the cafeteria, for less than 5€ a head, right andralves?
13:23:20 <gwolf> tumbleweed: of course, that's what I'm currently reading. Well, we have often paid for university dorms (but have also got others for free)...
13:23:43 <nattie> DiogoConstantino: would that number be consistent for dinner and breakfast?
13:23:47 <tumbleweed> yeah, and no dorms here
13:24:12 <andralves> In UAveiro we have university dorms, but they won't be free, but still affordable (probably around 20-35 euros). For lunch and dinner it's 5 euros in UAveiro facilities
13:24:33 <nattie> andralves: what's the setup for the dorms in terms of people per roon?
13:24:51 <nattie> (even if it varies, some examples would be lovely)
13:24:54 <indiebio> We may have access to dorms, but that depends on the date. There is maintenance scheduled, and so we needed to know if we're bidding for 2024 or 2025. I did not want to mess the bureaucracy around by asking for one year and then going back for a different thing
13:25:04 <gwolf> andralves: wiki says "Apparently student accomodation is not possible to use but youth hostels are a good option"
13:25:06 <andralves> Some are 1 person per room others are 2
13:25:18 <gwolf> ok, my comment was just addressed by indiebio
13:25:33 <pwaring> (1 minute left on this bid, please wrap up :)
13:25:33 <nattie> andralves: thanks :)
13:25:46 <gwolf> indiebio: But having numbers sometimes needs doing the bureaucratic trips a couple of times (-:
13:26:02 <tumbleweed> indiebio: I understand the desire to want confirmation before getting on the phone
13:26:18 <tumbleweed> but it's going to mean the other bids score some points over yours, automatically
13:26:42 <gwolf> (in Germany the hostels option was good, but was not available for 2024)
13:26:46 <indiebio> which is fair, Korea has an excellent bid. We have had uncertainties about venue and local team composition
13:26:48 <pwaring> ok, we'll move on to the next bid now (again 12 mins)
13:26:56 <pwaring> #topic France bid
13:27:02 <andralves> We already contacted university rectory and they can accomodate us, but we did not discussed prices yes
13:27:05 <santiago> hi!
13:27:08 <andralves> yet*
13:27:18 * gwolf thanks portugal team!
13:27:27 <calhariz> Hi
13:27:33 <santiago> we are currently five people in the team: ben, olasd, peb, rouca and myself
13:27:52 <santiago> en is a PhD student at the IMT Atlantique (finishing soon), and should be on a train right now
13:27:58 <santiago> s/en/ben/
13:28:38 <santiago> he has good contacts with all the people in charge of the facilities in the venue
13:29:23 <nattie> santiago: any update on the other accommodation, the one 500ish meters away?
13:29:26 <gwolf> santiago: We have talked this, and I have pushed you to push the venue anyway, but you were somewhat concerned about accomodation space. Have you managed to talk with the "other" dorms space?
13:29:26 <santiago> this was a kind of last-minute bid, there are some details already in the wiki, and some things to be determined
13:29:40 <nattie> gwolf: jinx ;)
13:29:57 * gwolf takes some blame for pushing santiago over the bidding cliff during a recent miniconf...
13:30:11 * nattie takes another portion of that blame
13:30:17 <nattie> (different recent miniconf)
13:30:18 <gwolf> (but the idea was his!)
13:30:18 <santiago> for those who are not aware: the accommodation in the main venue advertises room for 500 people, but we are not going to have that for two reasons:
13:30:26 <santiago> 1. renovation works in 2024
13:31:02 <santiago> 2. since they are non-profit, they have some constraints to don't "compete" against hotels nearby
13:31:19 <santiago> according to ben (who knows this well), that constraint could be workarounded
13:31:31 <santiago> but we haven't had the time to go further
13:31:45 <santiago> but the problem with the renovation works remains
13:31:53 <santiago> to answer nattie:
13:32:11 <gwolf> how expensive would hotels nearby be, any idea? (either for our main people or for those that opt for "better" settings)
13:32:45 <santiago> the other accommodation doesn't know right now how many rooms there would be available. maybe 20, probably 50. but we would only know that on May
13:33:15 <tumbleweed> I imagine a debconf in france (or portugal/uk) would be huge if we could find the accommodation necessary
13:33:20 <santiago> gwolf, more important than the cost, is the availability of hotels. most of them are in the city center
13:33:35 <pwaring> (5 mins left on this bid)
13:33:37 <gwolf> what would be the distance from IMT?
13:33:58 <h01ger> tumbleweed: i think this also depends on availability of the location. dc9/caceres was rather small, despite in spain.
13:33:58 <santiago> ~35, 40 mins (measured in time) by public transportation
13:34:10 <gwolf> oh, quite far, from what I can see in osm
13:34:14 <h01ger> s#availability#reachability#
13:34:38 <h01ger> s#also#a lot#
13:34:48 <gwolf> (IMT is ~5Km West from the city center, somewhat outside Brest)
13:34:55 <santiago> h01ger, there is a hotel "nearby", but it only has only ~30 rooms
13:35:33 <santiago> gwolf, indeed
13:35:42 <h01ger> dc13 was another example of rather small despite in the heart of europe. dc7 OTOH...
13:35:46 <gwolf> OK. How many people are you confident can you squeeze to sleep in the Technopole/IMT area?
13:36:03 <tumbleweed> h01ger: 13 probably could have been bigger, with more accommodation
13:36:16 <tumbleweed> (and accessibility)
13:36:21 <santiago> if we are not able to workaround the above mentioned limitation, ~150 people
13:36:46 <gwolf> OK. Other than that, we'd have to set up Magic Buses™ from downtown
13:37:08 <santiago> gwolf, yes, that is also an option, that has already been done for other events
13:37:21 <santiago> is feasible, but I don't have the cost right now
13:37:35 <gwolf> right, but worth considering anyway
13:37:42 <pwaring> (1 minute left, please wrap up :)
13:38:08 <gwolf> What about DC25?
13:38:21 <gwolf> Are you up for looking up things better and resubmitting?
13:38:30 <olasd> I think most of us are keen on pursuing the bid for 2025 (it might even be more convenient in terms of personal circumstances)
13:38:33 <santiago> it could be for DC25, but I don't know how easy would be for ben
13:38:38 <pwaring> we'll move on to the next bid now (UK, 12 mins)
13:38:47 <jmw> I've prepared a quick intro to make the most time for questions:
13:38:47 <pwaring> #topic UK bid
13:38:48 <santiago> thank you all!
13:38:55 <jmw> Birmingham is the largest city in the UK after London. The suburbs are quite large but the city centre is compact and if we were at a venue there, most things would be walking distance. Lots of work has been done in the past few years to make the centre open and welcoming with lots of public space. Accommodation options are plentiful for anyone who doesn't want venue digs. International travel, day trip and dinner options won't be
13:38:55 <jmw> a problem, so we're concentrating solely on venue at the moment.
13:38:57 <gwolf> thanks French Cabal!
13:39:03 <jmw> We don't have good sponsoring contacts at the universities, so we're working with list prices from them at the moment while we cultivate contacts, and that's why we're trying to keep to the city centre where other venues are available too.
13:39:08 <jmw> We're working on high attendance numbers of about 450, so that we don't get caught out. We only have one venue with detailed costs so far and it's high, but open to negotiation and doesn't take into account some attendees paying their own way.
13:39:12 <jmw> The local team is realistic: it would be lovely to be selected, but we understand other bids are more developed at this stage. If not selected, our work won't be wasted because we can use it in a future bid.
13:39:17 <jmw> So: our threats at the moment are cost and the short timeframe; opportunities include the city's many options; our biggest strength is local team determination and our biggest weakness is that we had written the option off until recently, so we acknowledge that we're behind the times on planning.
13:39:22 <jmw> and I am open for questions.
13:40:27 <nattie> just to point out, particularly for Europeans: the UK now requires passports for entry; ID cards are no longer sufficient
13:41:21 <RattusRattus> indeed.  but transport to birmingham is good.   venue we have costings for even has a station on campus
13:41:26 <jmw> (either I got rate-limited or you are all overwhelmed by my ability to paste :)
13:41:39 <tumbleweed> what are you thinking we'll be paying for food and accommodation in birmingham?
13:42:04 <RattusRattus> Accomadation £49.70 pp/night
13:42:07 * gwolf finds it ironic that, for his personal taste, it's more tempting to spend part of July/August in the Bretagne/GreatBritain weather than in the Portugal/Korea weather ;-) But... Who has ever attended DebConf to enjoy weather?
13:42:17 <RattusRattus> doesn't include evening meal at the moment
13:42:51 <nattie> RattusRattus: could one of you find out the costs for evening meal please?
13:43:02 <nattie> we're not all constantly wandering off for independent dinners
13:43:14 <gwolf> RattusRattus: (but it includes breakfast+lunch?)
13:43:24 <RattusRattus> £22 per head is todays starter for 10,  I expect to bring that down a lot - these are list prices I am working from
13:43:32 <jmw> yes, we would expect to be doing 3 meals for everybody, we're just a bit short of figures at the moment
13:43:39 <RattusRattus> gwolf: accomadation includes breakfast
13:43:58 <jmw> well, lunch and dinner plus an accommodation breakfast anyway
13:44:03 <RattusRattus> venue is approx same price at the momnet (and that includes lunch and coffe breaks)
13:44:32 <tumbleweed> I see you're thumbsucking GBP 200k for the event, at the uni. I assume that's excluding travel?
13:44:39 <RattusRattus> correct
13:45:26 <jmw> there are several other venues in the works as well
13:45:36 <pwaring> (5 minutes remaining on this bid)
13:45:39 <nattie> along what sort of lines?
13:45:43 <nattie> (other venues)
13:45:47 <RattusRattus> and same again for accomadation!!!  I would hope to get both for around the 200k mark
13:46:07 <RattusRattus> nattie: Astern uni are yet to get back to me
13:46:21 <nattie> ok
13:46:25 <RattusRattus> nattie: same for holiday in conferance centre that JMW originally suggested
13:46:27 <jmw> two other campuses, three conference centres in the city and we also have hotel facilities to explore
13:46:29 <phls> proposal dates?
13:46:38 <gwolf> OK. And I understand you are the team "aiming" for the biggest conf (~450 people)
13:46:52 <RattusRattus> Any date in August is currently available
13:47:06 <jmw> gwolf: that's our working figure for now, so that we don't get surprised by a sudden influx
13:47:22 <RattusRattus> we would expect this to end up as a big conf so yes 400-500 attendees
13:47:37 <jmw> phls: that depends on venue availability, we're suggesting july/august/early september for venues to work with
13:48:25 <jmw> summer months mean no students at unis and less competition from corporates at the other sites, because summer holidays for people
13:48:56 <RattusRattus> ^^ also Birmingham is NOT a typical holiday destination
13:48:57 * nattie had hoped for it to already be narrowed down a bit more than "summer"
13:49:36 <RattusRattus> nattie: ok any date in August for Birmingham Uni.  (available as of today)
13:49:44 <pwaring> (1 minute left on this bid, please wrap up :)
13:49:48 <jmw> august seems more likely than other months, that's as far as I'd commit at the moment
13:49:57 <tumbleweed> same question as everyone else? Willing to do DC25?
13:50:03 <gwolf> nattie: although if they know there is availability at the suggested places, it makes sense not to artificially limit to a single point
13:50:10 <jmw> we're reluctant to constrain the calendar too far and find venues are already booked up
13:50:14 <gwolf> s/point/month/
13:50:19 <RattusRattus> tumbleweed: yes
13:50:22 <gwolf> 25
13:50:31 <gwolf> grr, sorry
13:50:32 <gwolf> EWIN
13:50:33 <jmw> tumbleweed: absolutely, we're realistic about this option and would re-use the work for 25
13:50:35 <RattusRattus> please note this is a bid to ensure that DC can happen next year.
13:50:43 <jmw> *realistic about this year
13:50:53 <RattusRattus> Prices are worst case, but we CAN and WILL make it happen if needed
13:50:55 * h01ger is amazed by all of you finding such big venues in 2024 still!
13:50:58 <pwaring> ok, thanks for all the questions/answers, we've now got a few minutes to wrap up
13:51:01 <pwaring> #topic Wrap up
13:51:03 <jmw> thanks everyone
13:51:07 <paddatrapper> thanks
13:51:09 <RattusRattus> thank you
13:51:10 <gwolf> thanks .uk !
13:51:12 <pwaring> is there anything else we've not covered?
13:51:27 <h01ger> thanks for all the bidz!
13:51:29 <nattie> question to everyone: what's your plan for awkward visa situations?
13:51:30 * gwolf eyes paddatrapper who seems to have got away from the wolves' chasing
13:51:34 <phls> one question to Korea: is there any negative point in their Bid?
13:51:58 <paddatrapper> gwolf: :D survived until next time!
13:52:02 <gwolf> :-}
13:52:03 <jmkim> phls: Dorm curfew time (0100-0500). Non-Europe. Language. Typhoon-able during the period.
13:52:25 <phls> thanks
13:52:49 <gwolf> jmkim: OK, I didn't read about the dorm curfew. If somebody arrives during said hours, entry to the dorms is effectively closed?
13:53:13 <jmkim> gwolf: Local team will take them into the dorm \o/
13:53:18 <gwolf> (no biggie, we'd just need to be sure to communicate this)
13:53:22 <jmw> nattie: all our local team got bitten by various things with the .in visa situation, so we are keen to learn from that. .uk has quite a standard visa covering everybody so that's straightforward. we intend to seek advice from the home office about how to make things smoother for everybody (e.g. invitation letters)
13:53:22 <santiago> nattie, I hope we don't face "awkward" visa situations in Schengen. I mean, getting a visa for citizens of some countries is not straightforward, but the rules are clear
13:53:24 <h01ger> those negative points could all be seen as plus too
13:53:25 <gwolf> OK. So +- as in Kosovo :-)
13:53:37 <phls> Typhoon-able is some kind of experience :-)
13:54:00 <RattusRattus> nattie: well cross that bridge if we are sucessful.  for now we are cocentrating on can it happen.  Visa etc will need an enlarged local team to walk people through the hoops.  We have people sat in the wings who will come abord if sucessful in bid
13:54:03 <olasd> nattie: do you have an example of an "awkward visa situation"? Seems like a fairly open-ended question.
13:54:12 <nattie> ISTR there was an extra day built in for typhoon possibility at DC18
13:54:43 <nattie> olasd: stateless people, or people from places not universally acknowledged as nations
13:54:54 <nattie> (eg Kosovo for the latter case)
13:55:48 <weepingclown> Schengen visa is generally very hard to get for most non Europeans, I believe
13:55:49 <nattie> or indeed places where diplomatic relations are... suboptimal
13:56:09 <olasd> Kosovo is getting visa-free status in the Schengen zone in january 2024
13:56:17 <changwoo[m]> Typhoon possibility is there, but not very high compared to Taiwan.
13:56:32 <RattusRattus> +1 for Kosovo.
13:56:34 <tumbleweed> also PRC/ROC
13:56:43 <nattie> olasd: glad to hear it!
13:56:52 <gwolf> weepingclown: no, it's not that hard to get... There are some countries for which Schengen visa is painful, but it's usually a process with bounded time and expectable results.
13:57:02 <nattie> i mean, for now the plan can literally be "we will consult an immigration lawyer"
13:57:25 <phls> It seems a decision like: Europe x non-Europe. And If It's Europe, witch country.
13:57:31 <santiago> weepingclown, my own experience with a Colombian passport was quite/relatively easy, also attending for a conference. But I understand your point
13:57:33 <pwaring> I'm going to close the meeting now as it's 14:00 and during the working day for many of us. Thanks for coming and you can carry on discussing here (but it won't be part of the minutes / logged).
13:57:44 <pwaring> #endmeeting