11:00:20 <tumbleweed> #startmeeting DC26 bid evaluation
11:00:20 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jan 14 11:00:20 2025 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:00:20 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
11:00:28 <tumbleweed> #topic Roll Call
11:00:45 <tumbleweed> If you're here for the meeting, please say your name and which team you're representing
11:00:57 <gwolf> Gunnar Wolf, Argentina
11:00:58 <tumbleweed> Stefano Rivera (debconf-ctte)
11:01:09 <terceiro> Antonio Terceiro, debconf-ctte
11:01:26 <MarianoKunte> Mariano Kunte, Argentina
11:01:49 <TakanoriSuzuki[m]> hi.
11:01:49 <TakanoriSuzuki[m]> Takanori Suzuki from Japan.
11:01:52 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Norimitsu Sugimoto(dictoss), Japan
11:02:18 <tumbleweed> While we are waiting for people to introduce themselves, let me talk about the format of this meeting
11:02:46 <eamanu> o/
11:02:47 <tumbleweed> We will start with 10 minutes for each bid team to introduce their bid, and talk about the advantages and difficulties of it
11:02:53 <gwolf> (still solving a connection issue with a team member)
11:02:58 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> Shunsuke Yoshida ,Japan
11:03:06 <disaster2life[m]> disaster, asking for team makes me unsure if I can be here, just curious :)
11:03:18 <tumbleweed> Everyone will also read the wiki pages (again)
11:03:37 <tumbleweed> Once we are done with that, we can move to rounds of questions
11:03:46 <gwolf> disaster2life[m]: you are welcome. In fact, it's useful for involved people to participate with any relevant questions or comments.
11:04:14 <martinbayo> Hi, here martiín From Argentina
11:04:35 <tumbleweed> So far I see representitives from Japan and Argentina, thanks for coming
11:05:03 <gwolf> tumbleweed: for the record, and for the people that are not that much involved -- https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/
11:05:21 <tumbleweed> I haven't heard anything from the Thai bid recently, so I suspect we won't hear from them
11:05:24 <JunichiUekawa[m]1> Junichi uekawa japan
11:05:28 <gwolf> !info Bid pages are linked from https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/
11:05:47 <gwolf> (hmmm, maybe it only hears you)
11:05:52 <tumbleweed> gwolf: #info I think
11:05:59 <disaster2life[m]> gwolf: noted- Ill try and be useful with any questions, thank you!
11:06:00 <tumbleweed> for reference, meetbot docs: https://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot
11:06:01 <gwolf> #info Bid pages are linked from https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/
11:06:39 <disaster2life[m]> Uh remember at some point in a publicity meeting, meetbot didnt respond to #info but did register it-
11:06:47 <tumbleweed> and it seems that the Hadfield bid isn't at a state that can be prepared yet
11:07:04 <tumbleweed> err let me say that again
11:07:14 <tumbleweed> and it seems that the Hatfield bid isn't at a state that can be presented yet
11:07:19 <tumbleweed> (with 2 fewer typos)
11:08:15 <tumbleweed> OK, I think that's been enough time for most people to arrive
11:08:47 <tumbleweed> In [2]: random.choice(('argentina', 'japan'))
11:08:47 <tumbleweed> Out[2]: 'argentina'
11:08:51 <tumbleweed> says argentina sholud present first
11:09:21 <tumbleweed> #topic Argentina - Introduction
11:09:55 <tumbleweed> gwolf, martinbayo, MarianoKunte: Please present your bid
11:09:59 <gwolf> I think I can do the general preentation, and will leave martinbayo and MarianoKunte for details and questions
11:10:11 <gwolf> We are presenting a bid based on the Argentinian city of Santa Fe
11:10:40 <gwolf> It is the capital of the Santa Fe province, ~450Km North from Buenos Aires, in central Argentina
11:11:05 <gwolf> We are offering a bid based in the facilities of Universidad Nacional del Litoral, with two possible plans
11:11:36 <gwolf> Plan A consists of holding the conferences in the university city (mainly at the FICH (Engineering and Hydric Sciences Faculty), also using a classroom from another Faculty) and Venue in the ATE Hotel which is nearby (approx. 500 m, next to the campus) and using the university dining room for lunch and dinner.
11:12:09 <gwolf> The hotel and the faculty have the possibility of having hacklabs for us -- the faculty will be used during the day, and the ATE hotel around the clock
11:12:23 <gwolf> There are further hotels 4km away where you can get to the FICH by bus, taxi or using free bicycles
11:13:05 <gwolf> The ATE hotel's housing offer is limited to ~140 people -- we will later judge if that's enough, or we should change to the plan B venue
11:13:18 <gwolf> (the hotel is _a bit_ larger, but they won't commit 100% of their capacity)
11:13:45 <gwolf> The other option is at the "Historic Block", close to the city center.
11:14:30 <gwolf> In both cases, I understand ( martinbayo, MarianoKunte, please confirm!) the university is willing to give us the working spaces (auditoriums, hacklabs) without charging a rent for them
11:14:44 <gwolf> we would pay, of course, for the hotel accomodation and food
11:15:27 <gwolf> ...What else should I say? I'll leave some minutes of keyboard peace in case my team wants to add something!
11:16:17 <gwolf> oh! We had a MiniDebConf in March 2024. We didn't use any of the proposed venues, as it was  a much smaller gathering, but met with several of the local people interested in pushing this project, and it was a pleasure to work with them :-)
11:17:26 <gwolf> I think we can pass the microphone to the Japanese bid..?
11:17:43 <tumbleweed> #topic Japan - Introduction
11:17:49 <martinbayo> gwolf : Yes , we talk with the rector of the Faculty and she said there are no cost for room
11:18:05 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Hi, Japan Team.
11:18:22 <tumbleweed> TakanoriSuzuki[m], NorimitsuSugimoto[m], ShunsukeYoshida[m], please go ahead
11:18:48 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> town is Asahikawa, Hokkaido
11:19:16 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> center of Hokkaido Isrand
11:19:51 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> 2nd large city of Hokkaido
11:20:10 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Venue is Hotel
11:20:38 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> There are currently two hotels in the running.
11:20:52 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Art Hotel Asahikawa (first choice)
11:21:00 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> OMO7 Asahikawa(second candidate)
11:21:35 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Accommodation is inside venue hotel.
11:22:24 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> The network will be created temporarily.
11:22:41 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> some 1 Gbps Lines
11:23:08 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Asahikawa City has airport
11:24:07 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> 国内線は羽田空港から。成田からはちょっと来にくいです。
11:24:08 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> Domestic flights depart from Haneda Airport. It's a little difficult to get there from Narita Airport.
11:24:38 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> We don't offer rice according to our suggestion.
11:25:19 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> There are many restaurants close to the venue, so we are thinking of having everyone eat there.
11:25:55 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> VISA's support has not yet been decided.
11:26:30 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> The other thing is the cost, which may be a little high.
11:27:00 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> The cost is currently being confirmed.
11:27:24 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> This concludes the Japanese presentation.
11:27:48 <tumbleweed> thank you NorimitsuSugimoto[m]
11:28:06 <tumbleweed> #topic Discussion
11:28:43 <tumbleweed> everyone please feel free to ask questions, prefixing them with Argentina, Japan, or Both, so we know who they apply to
11:29:04 <tumbleweed> also, let's not pile too many questions on at once
11:29:04 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> the challenge is that miniconf hasn't been held recently.... (full message at <https://matrix.org/oftc/media/v1/media/download/AYAYJOe7KFSeQuuu16EeJB_1uPA0b_diErdY-WCkrErtpxpr2WQvSoYGA3kXX8oqhF9b-7dcQW4H-pDF80emTLRCeUrKwPTwAG1hdHJpeC5vcmcvbWlFV1VTYXJOTHdHcHZEU1R6SUF4REVP>)
11:30:00 <nattie> (hi, sorry i'm late)
11:30:33 <azeem> Argentina: can you clarify how one would get there (maybe I missed it?)? From the wiki, it sounds like one would typically fly into Buenos Aires, and would then have to change airports across city to a domestic one, is that correct?
11:30:41 <azeem> and how complicated would that be?
11:31:03 <terceiro> Argentina: some number in in the bid seem low (accomodation for ~140, caterer for ~200). Do you expect a smaller DebConf?
11:31:20 <gwolf> I should add to what we prepared / I relayed the fact that we know might be our weakest point: Getting to Santa Fe is not as easy... While there _are_ domestic flights from Buenos Aires, it is a situation similar to what was said about Japan: you'd have to change airports. Most international flights arrive to EZE, and domestic flights depart from AEP, across the city
11:31:53 <gwolf> For me, the recommended way to get there is to go by bus (~6hr) from Buenos Aires. Buses are comfortable and depart ~hourly.
11:32:27 <gwolf> There are options for taking the bus directly from EZE, but they are not as comfortable (nor as often) as the ones from Retiro
11:32:40 <gwolf> We will prepare and detail more this information, of course.
11:32:41 <martinbayo> you can get a bus from EZE to Santa Fe
11:32:58 <nattie> Japan: could you explain a bit further about how you intend to provide food to attendees?
11:33:34 <gwolf> terceiro: We discussed the bid at FICH taking somewhat our experience in Korea as a reference, as we had many people that didn't stay in-campus
11:34:15 <gwolf> Our expectation is that DebConf in South America will be smaller than in Europe; maybe the same size or a bit less than in Asia. But it's too early to tell
11:34:42 <gwolf> About food, we can accomodate for more people (the contact I had with my friend who quoted me the numbers I gave was just preliminary)
11:35:33 <terceiro> k
11:35:47 <terceiro> Argentina: Plan B (Historical Block) didn't mention accomodation and is thin on details. Are there hotels nearby? What does the venue look like? What will be the deciding factor between plans A and B?
11:36:01 <terceiro> sorry that is 3 questions into 1 but ther are related
11:36:11 <gwolf> I would think the ATE hotel would be seen as our main "on-site accomodation", and some people would be located 4Km away, as it was this year in Korea (or some years ago in Montreal). The public bike system in Santa Fe is quite good, and we have good contacts with the Province (martinbayo works there :-) ) so I trust we can solve that...
11:37:17 <terceiro> so is plan A much more likely then?
11:37:18 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> nattie: Breakfast will be provided at hotel. Lunch will be catered at the hotel. Dinner will not be provided. (there is close many restrants)
11:37:18 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> For the conference dinner, catering will be arranged at the hotel venue.
11:38:11 <tumbleweed> Japan: How do you expect dinner at restuarants to work for attendees who are receiving a food bursary?
11:38:11 <eamanu> regarding to flights, another option is Rosario (Santa Fe). The airport is international and there are buses to Santa Fe
11:38:29 <gwolf> ... As for the Historic Block, you can see some photos in the bid presentation ( https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/SantaFe?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Santafe_2026.pdf ). The hotels are within a 1Km radius. But it is not our main offer because we would have to split between ~3 hotels for capacity
11:38:35 <azeem> eamanu: how long is that bus ride?
11:39:02 <gwolf> historic block has some "up sides", as it would be square in the center of the city, with more food+entertaining options for those wanting to spend time outside
11:39:25 <gwolf> (but of course, some people point out that people would have to be more aware of the dangers of a Latin American city late at night
11:39:29 <eamanu> azeem: around 2 hours
11:39:53 <gwolf> FWIW, I've always felt quite safe in the street around there -- but I know it's a good recommendation
11:39:55 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> Japan about food :By catering, bento, restaurant around the hotel.
11:39:55 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> About vegetarian/vegan/lactose intolerant/gluten sensitive/religious meals, if it is prepared by the facility or the catering, it is possible (It is difficult to separate the kitchens for cooking, but it is possible to request it upon request.) In the case of eating out, it is possible to provide a food map of restaurants and other places to indicate whether or not they can accommodate.
11:40:10 <nattie> There is precedent for splitting between hotels
11:40:46 <gwolf> azeem: I have travelled to Argentina via the Rosario airport, and eamanu is right, it is a good option. It is, though, a bit harder/more expensive to get flights there. But we should add it to the document!
11:41:32 <gwolf> (FWIW, my experience with Santa Fe is that my family lives in Paraná, just across the river... Of course, if you remember it's a 30Km-wide river system)
11:41:56 <nattie> Japan: I think the specific issue we're trying to address is dinner.  Are you effectively saying attendees are completely on their own for dinner?
11:42:07 <tumbleweed> Argentina: Do you have a handle on the hotel costs yet?
11:42:44 <gwolf> martinbayo / MarianoKunte: I'll leave that question for you. How much do hotels charge per-person-per-night? Both ATE and the hotels downtown?
11:43:37 <martinbayo> tumbleweed:  the  hotels cost  is around $55
11:43:46 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> <tumbleweed> "Japan: How do you expect..." <- If meals (bento) are eaten at the venue hotel, arrangements can be made to subsidize food costs.
11:43:55 <tumbleweed> martinbayo: per person per night?
11:44:46 <martinbayo> tumbleweed: yes, per person per nigth with breakfast
11:45:56 <tumbleweed> Japan: Thanks for thinking about the budget so much already. But I'm concerned at how expensive this is looking. You quote ¥50m (€300k) for a week. And this is typically a 2-week event
11:46:11 <MarianoKunte> tumbleweed: In the city center there are more accommodation options, which can range from $40 to $100
11:46:41 <tumbleweed> Japan: So, I know this is not a "cheap" country, but do you think we can find a way to host the event for significantly less?
11:46:47 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> nattie: Lunch may be provided for every meal, but arrangements can be made to provide dinner for those who wish.
11:48:07 <nattie> we have generally always provided dinner
11:48:07 <terceiro> Japan: the bid page talks more than once about September. Are you proposing a September DebConf? Is that because of the rain season?
11:48:24 <gwolf> ShunsukeYoshida[m]: My experience organizing DebConfs is that many (maybe even most) people will skip our provided breakfast, almost-everybody eats lunch with the group, and some people (say, 10-20% of the total tops) goes out exploring options for dinner...
11:49:32 <nattie> +1 on what Gunnar says, though I think people do take breakfast
11:50:14 <gwolf> terceiro: Oh! I'll hijack a bit, and I'll answer to your question about Argentina as well :-) We are eyeing July, which is square Winter.
11:50:42 <h01ger> +1 what gunnar says, though i firmly believe breakfast should be provided for those who do breakfast (at those times. personally i dont). i think common breakfast is an important daily social event
11:50:58 <tumbleweed> gwolf: are we going to freeze as much as we did in cape town?
11:51:41 <gwolf> I'm not sure of the exact dates we would have venue availability (it would be in the two weeks of Winter vacations), but we'd quite probably overlap with the World Cup. I do not follow Soccer, but have been during a World Cup in Argentina. It is a quite interesting phenomenon! :-)
11:51:58 <nattie> ooh, cultural experience
11:52:26 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> <tumbleweed> "Japan: So, I know this is not a..." <- The proposed venue is a hotel, and there are currently no sponsors for a cheap venue.
11:52:26 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> In addition, there are no cheap dormitories that can accommodate 500 people, so it is difficult to keep the costs low.
11:52:26 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> We are currently looking into ways to make the venue and dormitories cheaper.
11:52:49 <nattie> 500 strikes me as quite a high number to accommodate
11:52:56 <gwolf> tumbleweed: The hotel is not a 100-year-old residence with electric-only heating ;-) IMO the weather is quite similar to what we had in Cape Town, but buildings are quite well equiped. And it's mostly pleasant for some of us to be outside.
11:53:08 <tumbleweed> gwolf: phew :P
11:53:19 <gwolf> tumbleweed: weather-wise, https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/26/Bids/SantaFe?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=weather_santa_fe.png
11:53:30 <weepingclown[m][m]> gwolf: wouldn't *everything* get more costly if it overlaps with worldcup? I think that's a general phenemenon wrt to the increased tourism and all that
11:53:35 <gwolf> it does not usually freeze.
11:53:55 <youngbin[m]> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: > <@dictoss-guest:matrix.debian.social> The proposed venue is a hotel, and there are currently no sponsors for a cheap venue.... (full message at <https://matrix.org/oftc/media/v1/media/download/AbJxY4gv5VKWAVk1AxBahOKu2PtF9g56i6WRtvBjdVEhsxpvFi2zT7FwZ1rsg9qvxWqVA2Or-7gVAepLeX6x0TBCeUrMLPPAAG1hdHJpeC5vcmcvdmt2V2dRVmR0cGN1WGdia3BEY2VVRWd2>)
11:53:56 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> <terceiro> "Japan: the bid page talks more..." <-
11:53:56 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> It depends on the weather and the availability of the venue.
11:53:56 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> It's not the rainy season. It's the right timing for hot and cold.
11:53:56 <gwolf> weepingclown[m][m]: I would not think so, as the world cup will be in North America :-) But... don't know
11:54:09 <nattie> is the world cup actually taking place in Argentina and not somewhere totally football-related like Qatar or whatever they've chosen this time?
11:54:20 <h01ger> its taking place in the US, mx and .ca
11:54:26 <h01ger> just checked :)
11:54:34 <gwolf> nattie: It will be "shared" between all of North America. I want to get out of here ;-)
11:54:41 <tumbleweed> lol
11:54:42 <nattie> gwolf: solid plan :)
11:55:14 <nattie> i was just being snarky about the history of world cup venue choices
11:55:17 <terceiro> there would be easier ways out than organizing a debconf, but
11:55:18 <weepingclown[m][m]> and, if wc is not in latin america then I guess it doesn't matter
11:55:45 <gwolf> weepingclown[m][m]: A good portion of North America is Latin America ;-)
11:55:56 <disaster2life[m]> "there would be easier ways out than organizing a debconf, but" if it gets us a debconf? :*)
11:55:58 <nattie> though we hope there is adequate provision of WCs! ;)
11:56:10 <terceiro> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: so you are proposing September because in earlier months it would be too cold?
11:56:29 <gwolf> terceiro: Hot :-) Remember Taiwan and Korea?
11:56:45 <tumbleweed> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: as things stand, I'm concerned that this is well out of our budget range
11:56:54 <terceiro> gwolf: I missed those 2 for $reasons
11:57:09 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> youngbin[m]: There are four universities in Asahikawa.
11:57:09 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> However, there are currently no people in Japan connected to any of the universities in Asahikawa, so negotiations are not possible.
11:57:40 <nattie> terceiro: it was basically being steam-cooked
11:57:48 <terceiro> ack
11:57:59 <youngbin[m]> NorimitsuSugimoto[m]: > <@dictoss-guest:matrix.debian.social> There are four universities in Asahikawa.
11:57:59 <youngbin[m]> > However, there are currently no people in Japan connected to any of the universities in Asahikawa, so negotiations are not possible.
11:57:59 <youngbin[m]> That's sorry to hear. Even folks from Cybertrust have no connection with university?
11:58:25 <nattie> does it have to be Asahikawa?
11:58:37 <nattie> or could another university also work?
11:58:47 <nattie> i mean, another city with universities
11:59:13 <tumbleweed> I guess we need a connection with the univrsity, no matter where it is
11:59:57 <weepingclown[m][m]> gwolf: s/latin/south/ :p
12:00:08 <tumbleweed> that's the end of the hour we set ourselves
12:00:24 <tumbleweed> questions are still flowing, but we'll understand if anyone needs to leave
12:00:34 <NorimitsuSugimoto[m]> terceiro: No, August is the hottest month, and there are no venues available.
12:00:46 <tumbleweed> I think we should try to end the meeting soon, and then have a discussion amongst the committee
12:00:56 <gwolf> FWIW I have set ~15min so I can go push my kids schoolwards :-)
12:00:57 <ShunsukeYoshida[m]> youngbin[m]: Yes, we currently have no connection with CyberTrust either.
12:01:02 <youngbin[m]> If someone have any connection with city government, asking them help for reaching out universities could be also something to try out - just my 2 cents.
12:02:23 <tumbleweed> We can also continue discussions by email on debconf-team@lists.debian.org
12:02:26 <TakanoriSuzuki[m]> youngbin[m]: Even we can get connection with universities, in Japan, dormitories are not as common at most universities compared to other countries. Their availability is limited, and vacancies are rare. Moreover, they are generally not intended for use by individuals outside the student body, making them an unreliable option.
12:02:26 <gwolf> FWIW, even if the Japanese cost is quite high, I must point out to something in their favor: Argentinian economy has never been too stable, and the current outlook is not very promising. While that does not endanger our proposal, it will be _quite hard_ to get meaningful money from local sponsors. I expect Japanese local sponsors to be able to put more money for the conf
12:02:33 <weepingclown[m][m]> I think I remember someone from the Japanese team mentioning the possibility of unversities collaborating is very little when I asked once, but you don't have to take my word for it
12:03:03 <nattie> is there anything like capsule hotels that could be made to work?  i understand they're unlikely to be available as they're mostly meant for local use, though
12:03:32 <gwolf> nattie: /me shivers at the thought of spending two weeks in a cocoon!
12:03:43 <gwolf> I might come out with wings and all! ;-)
12:04:19 <nattie> gwolf: fair point, though i was just spinning the idea
12:04:42 <gwolf> https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/parody/images/9/91/The-bugs-life-disneyscreencaps.com-10416.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20170608223058
12:05:33 <tumbleweed> I'm wondering what other forms of lower cost accommodation are available in Japan? Hostels? Hotels in small cities?
12:08:44 <tumbleweed> Anyway, it does look like things are slowing down now, let's call an end to the meeting, and move this discussion to the list
12:09:11 <tumbleweed> #endmeeting