18:03:21 #startmeeting DebConf16 planning 18:03:21 Meeting started Tue Apr 5 18:03:21 2016 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:03:21 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:30 Agenda: https://pad.riseup.net/p/videoteam-debconf 18:03:39 here 18:03:45 thanks 18:04:19 are we happy with the order of the things in the agenda? 18:04:41 some things I'd flip: venue review & inventory before softawre stack 18:04:52 vienna mini-dc before shipping 18:05:02 +1 18:05:30 natty! semi-waves and hugs 18:05:32 OK, while that's happening 18:05:39 #topic Venue Review 18:05:44 hey hey Carl! : 18:05:45 :) 18:06:09 I wrote that section, so let me describe it a bit 18:06:32 we're hoping debconf will mostly be in two adjacent buildings 18:06:42 well, they're all we've booked 18:06:44 so it will be :P 18:07:05 there's a campus map linked from https://debconf16.debconf.org/about/debconf 18:07:58 what are the building names? 18:08:01 https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Venue 18:08:17 so, the main talks will be in Menzies 9 & 10 18:08:24 (I think) 18:08:55 everything else will be in snape 18:09:02 this is all in the top-left corner of the map 18:09:38 would it be possible to put all the videoed rooms in the same building? 18:09:45 no 18:09:52 but the buildings are adjacent 18:09:56 connected, even 18:11:09 the menzies lecture theaters are on the top-left corner of menzies - just a flight of stairs away from snape 18:11:40 will we be able to have a videoteam room somewhere near that? 18:12:26 it's pretty usefull to gather people in time of need 18:12:40 we haven't actually booked anything for that. There are rooms in NEB that could be appropriate, but that's yet another building (across a courtyard from snape) 18:13:19 there 18:13:24 do you think you could ask someone from local team to look into it? 18:13:28 #action tumbleweed to ask ginngs about a video team room, near menzies 18:13:33 * wouter reads backlog 18:13:36 :D 18:14:07 Move on? 18:14:12 For the PAs, is there a sound board or do we need to plug in ours? 18:14:21 define "sound board" 18:14:36 there are PA systems, that I'm expecting to be able to plug into 18:14:44 if nothing else, via the mini-jack on the presenter's desk 18:14:48 the thingy with all the dials we move up and down to manipulate the sound 18:14:52 a mixer 18:14:55 that yes 18:15:16 no, we'll need our own (as always) 18:15:45 * pollo is good to move ahead 18:15:48 * wouter has caught up 18:16:01 having balanced audio is preferable 18:16:11 sometimes they may have it, but not by default 18:16:18 pollo: I'll be in CPT this time next month, I can do a proper site inspection of the PA system, then 18:16:19 would be good to have someone local ask about that 18:16:25 or we can ask ginngs to do so in the meantime 18:16:27 tumbleweed: +1 18:16:28 tumbleweed: great :) 18:17:50 #action tumbleweed to check PA when in CPT next month 18:18:24 meanwhile, we should probably prepare for mini-TRS connectors if necessary 18:18:24 #topic What hardware do we need 18:18:44 we said we wanted to keep the dv setup in case something goes wrong 18:18:50 the HDMI2USB thingies still require a local laptop, right? 18:18:51 so we need all the stuff in Paris 18:19:16 wouter: yes. There is an ethernet-streaming firmware project, but I don't think it's useable, yet 18:19:27 okay, so we'll need three laptops per room then 18:19:38 do we have that? 18:19:43 or 4 18:19:48 why 4? 18:19:49 no, our laptops are a mess 18:19:55 2 cameras, mixer, grabber 18:20:05 even just for video? 18:20:10 oh, in the BoF room? right 18:20:19 er, no, silly me 18:20:29 we can do mixer and camera on the same laptop, we've always done that 18:20:37 oh, right 18:20:39 yeah 18:21:16 it would be nicer to have desktop PC for mixer if we want to test out the CCC mixing software 18:21:26 so, what happened to the 9 X200-series laptops that we had in Heidelberg? 18:21:52 wouter: those were given away to good homes 18:22:03 also, we were actually relying on Sledge's x230s a lot 18:22:18 right, so I think pollo's suggestion is probably a better idea then 18:22:25 rent/borrow something locally in CPT? 18:22:31 yeah, I think we should try to hire 18:22:52 isn't there a local sponsor who could lend us some stuff? 18:22:53 downside is, if we get dependant on hiring, we always have to hire 18:23:01 pollo: there isn't a single local sponsor, yet :( 18:23:02 tumbleweed: not so 18:23:05 but we're working on that 18:23:16 on the contrary, in fact 18:23:23 wouter: I mean, right now, we simply don't have enough laptops. We have to replenish / hire 18:23:53 we could ask bdale if he can get HP to donate newer laptops 18:24:07 HP is now two companies, and he's not on the side that makes laptops 18:24:08 we did get those from HP several years back (DC11 IIRC) 18:24:09 but yes 18:24:14 ah, yes, didn't think of that part 18:24:16 I heard someone who said Debian had a lot of money lying around, maybe we could actually _buy_ some stuff 18:24:20 I have a friends odroid to see if it can be used as the graber host - it seems to have good usb and good eathernet, so need to see if the cpu can transcode mjpeg to dv 18:24:42 I should have a good answer in a week 18:24:53 CarlFK: we need firewire capture as long as we have DV cameras 18:25:02 tumbleweed: not for the grabber 18:25:05 yes 18:25:10 but 2/3s of the machines need it 18:25:19 tumbleweed: we still do have 5 somewhat working laptops with builtin firewire 18:25:27 if it works, that is two less laptops you need 18:25:34 CarlFK: three 18:25:42 (three rooms) 18:25:51 even better 18:26:26 I can definitely bring some firewire expresscards 18:26:27 highvoltage: would you be able to look into local hiring? 18:26:36 wouter: debconf now owns a ton of those :P 18:26:44 tumbleweed: yes, but what happened to them? 18:26:52 they're in our boxes in paris 18:26:55 I was going to look whether I had brought them home, but forgot 18:26:56 ah, okay 18:26:59 so we should bring those then 18:27:26 tumbleweed: side note: the word you're looking for is "renting". "hiring" involves people ;-) 18:27:41 depends on your english dialect 18:27:51 eh, possibly 18:28:22 anyway, I'm also not convinced that all of those original five laptops are still in good working order 18:28:43 I remember a number of issues with them last year 18:29:48 so, I suggest we attempt to find 6 or so machines locally, three of which (at least) should have a firewire connection 18:30:07 hi, sorry, got a RL meeting too… 18:30:10 that sounds like a plan 18:30:21 now back for 5min or so, reading backlog 18:31:11 http://rentware.co.za/ seems like a local company 18:32:03 we knew somebody in this business, but I haven't heard from him in years 18:32:16 (bisybackson, for highvoltage's benefit) 18:32:40 desktops starting at R400 per week 18:32:45 how much is that in euros or dollars? 18:33:01 wouter: 15 ZAR : 1 USD 18:33:13 so 26USD 18:33:20 that's pretty cheap 18:33:43 of course there may be a surcharge for blowing away the OS :P 18:33:52 tumbleweed: not in my experience 18:33:53 we could just swap hhd 18:33:56 I've dealt with such companies before 18:34:13 they tend to routinely wipe the hard disk after every rental 18:34:18 so they don't care what you do with it 18:34:29 in fact, they may be cheaper if we tell them that we don't want a windows on it 18:34:29 I should hope so, but I kind of suspect they don't 18:34:38 because license and hourly rates 18:34:55 anyway, let's move on? 18:34:58 i missed a part (spotty connection), but could we plug in firewire cards and not use laptops tnen? 18:35:04 https://www.uct.ac.za/images/uct.ac.za/contact/campusmaps/big/uctuppercampus.jpg - where are we? 18:35:07 pollo: definitely 18:35:12 cool, thx 18:35:21 h01ger: top left 18:35:34 pollo: the firewire cards we have are mini-pcie, not pcie 18:35:39 so we'd need to buy some 18:35:54 actually, what we have is expresscard 18:35:58 err that, yes 18:36:03 there is that, indeed 18:36:10 is there stuff we need extra to test the voctomix setup? 18:36:20 but if we call that company and spec "laptops with decent processor and expresscard slot", they should be happy 18:36:21 pollo: so, CCC's vocto setup uses blackmagic cards 18:36:27 otoh, those expresscards were a source of trouble lastyear 18:36:30 last year, even 18:36:46 pollo: LCA used HDV over firewire (and run into a bunch of trouble with that, but it should all be fixed now) 18:37:09 might be better to use desktops and PCIe firewire cards after all 18:37:19 we don't actually know if those cards were the problem. Just something was. 18:37:28 tumbleweed: I suspect it was the cards 18:37:28 tumbleweed: so we don't need new cameras? 18:37:31 I've seen the failure mode before 18:37:36 re: asking the dpl to support buying hw is a good idea 18:37:37 IIRC the HP laptops with onboard firewire seemed to work better 18:37:40 I would hold off talking about Vocto in the DC meetings until someone has actually recorded a talk using a similar setup as will be used at DC 18:38:03 pollo: our big cameras have SDI output, and firewire 18:38:08 (we have 2 of them) 18:38:11 \0/ 18:38:19 as is asking "the public" whether they can donate 10 laptops of the same kind and/or 4 powerful enough to run voctomix 18:38:24 so, our ambitious plan at mini-dc-cambridge 18:38:40 was to test out voctomix in one room 18:38:40 CarlFK: i think we should talk about it if we plan to move to voctomix for DC17 18:38:41 my supplier has pcie firewire expansion boards for €25ish 18:38:50 maybe a bof room, not one of the talk ones 18:39:21 which is actually cheaper than the expresscard stuff that I got last year 18:39:24 tumbleweed: that would be nice 18:39:41 (iirc) 18:40:19 so no more twinpacts? 18:40:24 h01ger: nope 18:40:25 wouter: looks like we can get at a similar price in za https://www.nivo.co.za/#search/search~pcie+firewire 18:40:34 tumbleweed: right 18:40:50 so my suggestion would be to rent desktops with a PCIe slot, and plug in firewire cards 18:41:01 that's going to be more reliable than expresscards 18:41:24 even if only because you can actually put a screw in a PCIe card (as opposed to an expresscard) so they can't move 18:41:32 I have tons of firewire cards in all shapes and sizes - including half hight slot back things... I'll send tumbleweed as many lbs of them as he wants. wrapped in firewire cables. 18:41:39 lol 18:41:51 CarlFK: even better :)- 18:41:56 someone should #info and #agreed stuff. anybody can do #info, only chairs can #agreed. iirc. Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:41:59 we can probably borrow old desktops from the university, but they could be very old 18:42:04 I think we should buy new firewire cables though 18:42:19 we bought new ones last year 18:42:24 idea: ask the dpl to support buying hw - laptops 18:42:27 tumbleweed: I would not borrow old desktops 18:42:28 #idea: ask the dpl to support buying hw - laptops 18:42:37 * CarlFK will send pollo 10 unused firewire cables a week until he tells me to stop 18:42:44 :D 18:42:48 CarlFK: lol 18:43:06 #idea: blog and ask for laptop donations, either from individuals or donations from companies 18:43:07 it's just we had problem with one room last year until we changed a freaking cable 18:43:31 h01ger: the advantage of renting locally is "no shipping costs" 18:43:47 wouter: *shrugs* 18:43:50 h01ger: why buy if we can ge them cheaper than what shipping them will cost us? 18:43:51 I think $26/week is going to be cheaper than shipping from US or EU 18:44:06 the advantage of shipping is you know the stuff and you can ship the same models many times 18:44:27 there is that, provided we get them months/week beforehand 18:44:33 *weeks 18:45:08 OK, time to move on 18:45:09 #info there are 3 main talk rooms to be videoed and 2 bof rooms would also love some coverage 18:45:09 okay, so are we agreed on the desktop/pcie firewire, at least? 18:45:25 wouter: i think it's the best we can do 18:45:27 tumbleweed: can we make a decision first? otherwise we're just talking, not meeting 18:45:36 * h01ger is not sure there is a conclusion how voctomix is run where 18:45:57 * h01ger agrees with wouter that a plan should be agreed on 18:46:02 hello. just "some" minute later 18:46:05 yeah, we pushed the software stack agenda item too low down 18:46:09 it should have come bofore this 18:46:17 heh, it used to be :p 18:46:18 then detour software 18:46:36 then hw again and then software in detail maybe, or "software, whats left" 18:46:51 dvswitch in the 2 main rooms, voctomix in the bof one 18:47:01 that's what I understood 18:47:02 I thought the idea was to attempt voctomix during early debcamp, do a few trial runs, and then decide whether to stick with it or fall back to dvswitch? 18:47:14 something like that 18:47:15 but maybe I misunderstood :-) 18:47:28 if we're going to work with two software stacks, we may have more training to do 18:47:35 indeed 18:48:03 but if we decide to use voctomix, we need to be sure it'll last the whole conference 18:48:14 there is that 18:48:21 doing bof room might indeed be a better idea 18:48:22 nobody wants to deal with changing the whole software in the middle of the conf 18:48:23 vocto and dvswtich have different HW requirements. trying to supply both will up the cost, and trying to implement both adds complexity that I would recommend against 18:48:43 CarlFK: I don't see how we get the experience with voctomix, without using it in a room 18:48:52 tumbleweed++ 18:49:01 CarlFK: how is that? we can use our cameras with both and will have desktops 18:49:12 tumbleweed: use it in the bof room knowing that it may fail 18:49:19 pollo: we'll probably need to run different releases of Debian for DVSwitch / vocto 18:49:23 CarlFK: yes, and announce that loudly, too 18:49:25 pollo: dv needs firewire, vocto needs more cpu 18:49:26 at LCA, we ran dvswitch from an ancient chroot 18:49:28 could you test voctomix in vienna or in debdummer? 18:49:53 debsummer 18:49:58 people who want to test vocto should be testing it now on their home machines (please please someone do this for me?) 18:50:03 #action wouter will make some time trying to get dvswitch to run on jessie+backports (for ffmpeg) 18:50:14 if that works, we *don't* need two OSes 18:50:59 I still think we should test voctomix in th BoF room only if it works during debcamp 18:51:04 I don't know if vocto will even run on jessie 18:51:15 tumbleweed: oh. 18:51:21 pollo: that's a given :-) 18:51:28 tumbleweed: must admit I haven't tried that 18:51:45 as for OSes, why can't we just have a few HDDs to swap? 18:51:53 then again, if I say "jessie+backports" because ffmpeg, I could just as well say "unstable" 18:51:54 pollo: eeeek 18:52:04 pollo: no, I'd much rather use a chroot 18:52:07 is the BOF room the 3rd room? 18:52:10 CarlFK: yes 18:52:25 are we willing to run this on an early-debcamp-unstable snapshot? 18:52:42 well jessie+backports sounds like a better option 18:52:51 but if that's the only thing that works, then that's what we have to do 18:52:58 right 18:53:29 CarlFK: will you be at dc16? 18:53:35 if we commit to the BOF room being "disposable" and will either use Vocto or die, then you don't need any firewire for that room, 18:53:48 wouter: i wish, but I don't plan on it :( 18:54:00 CarlFK: you can always use dvswitch without firewire 18:54:03 (given sufficient CPU) 18:54:06 CarlFK: very good point 18:54:32 I think it's fair to say to the scheduling team that the bof room is going to use an experimental software stack, and that it may fail 18:54:35 for voctomix we need recent i7 from what I saw 18:54:40 tumbleweed: um.. dvswitch without firewire ... how to you hook up the cameras? 18:54:51 CarlFK: however you were going to with vocto 18:54:56 CarlFK: there is a gstreamer plugin to do dvswitch ;-) 18:54:57 pollo: my gen 2 i3 desktop was ok 18:55:13 pollo: you only do if you want to do FullHD or better 18:55:16 pollo: we don't 18:55:27 pollo: ah - doing 720p -CCC does 1080 which needs more cpu 18:56:06 tumbleweed: can you either make someone co-chair, or do some #agreed thing? ;-) 18:56:14 anybody can #agreed, I think 18:56:19 tumbleweed: oh right. my bad. hmm.. what is the plan for cameras in the BOF room? 18:56:22 no, that takes a chair 18:56:26 i think everyone can #info 18:57:07 ah, #action is everyone 18:57:09 #agreed isn't 18:57:14 oops :P 18:57:19 CarlFK: we were taking a detour through software so we can make that decision :-) 18:57:51 tumbleweed: so please do some agreed lines (we've made a number of decisions already) so they show up in the minutes? 18:57:56 So here is my proposal: we try voctomix in debcamp. If it works, we use it in the BoF room. If not, we use dvswitch everywhere 18:58:01 yes, I'm trying to figure out what they are 18:58:10 #agreed DVswitch for the 2 main rooms, experimental vocto for the BOF room 18:58:15 desktops+pcie firewire 18:58:39 wouter: for mixer or mixer and camera capture? 18:58:58 tumbleweed: eh, we didn't actually discuss that part :) 18:59:06 I think doing desktops for the mixer is sane 18:59:26 stick to the HP laptops for secondary camera 18:59:31 probably a good use for them 18:59:32 and camera capture isn't much work, so that doesn't requires a separate machine 18:59:36 yeah, I was about to say that :-) 18:59:50 did grabbing with the hdmi2usb thing require much CPU? 18:59:55 didn't we say firewire would be more stable on the desktops? 19:00:06 a reasonable amount, it needs a gstreamer pipeline that converts it to firewire 19:00:21 pollo: it was also more stable on the HP laptops 19:00:23 pollo: as compared to expresscard firewire, yes. these laptops have builtin firewire, so there's less difference then 19:00:36 tumbleweed: ah yes 19:00:46 not a honking i7 cpu 19:00:47 hdmi2usb delivers mjpeg - very old core2 can tanscode to dv with like 30% cpu, so not much. 19:00:51 but something not terrible 19:00:55 but that's not too much, video decoding isn't very complicated (you can do it realtime) and DV is basically moving JPEG I-frames 19:01:02 yeah, we could possibly do it on the same camera 19:01:09 err same laptop 19:01:13 but they may be on opposite sides of the room 19:01:31 let's not go there 19:01:47 let's say we rent/borrow/whatever six desktops 19:01:52 of which at least three must have PCIe slots 19:01:58 wouter++ 19:01:59 and bring all five laptops from paris 19:02:12 so that we have some spare capacity, too 19:02:25 can you #agreed that? ;-) 19:02:34 lets decide on what before how 19:02:47 h01ger: haven't we decided that? 19:02:48 that is a what :) 19:03:01 what do we need^wagree on for the 3 main rooms? and whta for the 2 bof rooms? 19:03:07 h01ger: see the last #agreed 19:03:10 h01ger: er 19:03:16 h01ger: we have three rooms to do video in 19:03:22 two of them are main rooms, one is a bof room 19:03:30 in the other two bof rooms we don't do video 19:03:32 more than 3 is not sane anyway 19:03:34 well, our ambitious plans from the mini-dc were to try for 4 rooms :P 19:03:37 [20:59] < tumbleweed> #agreed DVswitch for the 2 main rooms, experimental vocto for the BOF room 19:03:40 with an automated camera in the 4th 19:03:43 misses 2 rooms? 19:03:58 h01ger: yeah, your room summary was weird 19:03:59 h01ger: no it doesn't 19:04:11 h01ger: we never video all the BoF rooms 19:04:13 and nobody expects us to 19:04:39 we did not agreed on what to do in the BoF is voctomix fails though. Die or dvswitch? 19:04:42 * wouter eats leftover waffles for dinner 19:04:55 pollo: I think die is reasonable if it happens halfway through debconf 19:04:57 pollo: it's not like we have a choice 19:05:16 if we find it's not possible early in debcamp, we can still fall back to dvswitch if we have the hardware 19:05:21 wouter: yeah, but I mean we can,t make it run during debcamp 19:05:33 I think it should be fairly straight-forward to fall back, with whatever hardware we have 19:05:33 but much will depend on what cameras we will get for that room 19:05:38 if it was capable of vocto 19:05:44 it can handle the transcoding for dvswitch 19:05:45 tumbleweed: true enough 19:05:48 can you #agree on this? 19:06:07 that, or make someone else co-chair (please please please) 19:06:09 #agreed BoF room falls back to dvswitch if vocto prooves infeasable during debcamp 19:06:18 \0/ 19:06:32 so we did hardware and software? 19:06:37 wait 19:06:40 we aren't thorugh hardware 19:06:53 I thought we were, other than that you haven't #agreed that yet 19:06:57 so I suspect you have something still to say? ;-) 19:07:01 #agreed hire 6 desktops and buy 3 PCIe Firewire cards 19:07:07 newer iX (i3, …) is *much* faster than older iX, btw… (and just saying) 19:07:10 yes, I have a whole bunch of half-typed lines 19:07:16 tumbleweed: okay :) 19:07:45 #agreed bring all laptops from Paris, use as secondary camera capture and possibly opsis capture 19:07:54 what's still missing there? 19:08:00 < pollo> So here is my proposal: we try voctomix in debcamp. If it works, we use it in the BoF room. If not, we use dvswitch everywhere 19:08:06 * h01ger likes that 19:08:14 h01ger: we agreed on that 19:08:15 I just #agreed something very similar to that 19:08:34 (03:04:38 PM) h01ger: [20:59] < tumbleweed> #agreed DVswitch for the 2 main rooms, experimental vocto for the BOF room 19:08:44 cool cool 19:08:46 tumbleweed: #agreed BoF room falls back to dvswitch if vocto prooves infeasable during debcamp 19:08:50 so that's hardware and recording stack 19:09:05 do we need to modify much in the streaming end of things? 19:09:23 (the whole meeting btw, me likes the agenda, just i'm sorry i'm hardly here… RL meeting still ongoing :) 19:09:26 oeer that's a whole other topic 19:09:36 tumbleweed: (can you update the #topic then, too? ;-) 19:09:42 audio hw? 19:09:43 tumbleweed: I can look at local hiring (into what?) 19:09:46 well, we are still on hardware we need 19:09:49 highvoltage: \o/ 19:09:52 (I mean hiring what?) 19:09:56 tumbleweed: right, audio 19:10:03 highvoltage: 6 desktops 19:10:15 with cpus nice enough to run voctomix 19:10:25 highvoltage: at least three of them must have PCIe slots so we can plug in firewire cards 19:10:33 (that, or builtin firewire, but good luck with that today) 19:10:44 pollo: what would that be? I can probably borrow a few 4th generation core i5 machines with 8GB RAM for free though 19:10:48 (they're new dells) 19:10:55 that sounds reasonable 19:10:58 indeed 19:11:04 I'll find out tomorrow 19:11:05 highvoltage: any idea how many? 19:11:06 do you have a bit more detail on what the exact i5 is though? 19:11:09 4th generation core i5 is fine for vocto 19:11:17 #action highvoltage to find out about borrowing machines 19:11:17 I think they have 7 of them unused at the moment 19:11:22 highvoltage: that'd be \o/ 19:11:27 highvoltage: that sounds just perfect, then 19:11:30 oh this is a meeting? sorry I'm missing it, tough day 19:11:36 heh 19:11:38 highvoltage: no worries :) 19:11:56 audio hardware then? 19:11:57 #topic Audio Hardware 19:11:59 :) 19:12:10 we have this stuff in paris 19:12:17 but presumably better to hire locally 19:12:24 yeah 19:12:27 and actually, we are short of radio mics in paris 19:12:47 UCT has an AV centre that we can hire from, but I'm betting it'll be shitty equipment, and overpriced 19:13:10 we need 3 mixers, 6 wireless mics and? 19:13:21 I'd say more than 6 wireless mics 19:13:22 reasonable amount of XLR cables 19:13:27