18:00:48 #startmeeting 18:00:48 Meeting started Wed May 24 18:00:48 2017 UTC. The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:48 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:53 \o 18:00:56 0/ 18:01:30 Agenda: https://storm.debian.net/shared/Nau_K2aciSPn_uq_eFu6Miquo3UAFJhqYXdkslxoD7E 18:01:35 morning 18:01:38 which is currently petty empty 18:01:40 pretty 18:02:04 we talked on the ML but I think noone did anything on the agenda 18:02:11 pollo: want to amend the agenda with your suggetstions? 18:02:57 I have tried to add all the topics, but didn't get a chance to add the content 18:03:09 i think the agenda is ok, it's just not listing all the content 18:03:22 (content inside topics) 18:03:28 that's fine, we can explain here if needs be 18:03:52 I think most of us will understand the gist of things by just the title, anyway, and if not, see what I just said :-) 18:03:54 OK 18:04:29 I guess we're through items -1 and 0 18:04:34 o/ everyone :) 18:04:48 hi :) 18:05:04 hi 18:05:12 #topic Logistics 18:05:24 so, this really depends on whether we borrow or buy 18:05:33 what is the working plan right now? 18:05:37 I think if we can we should buy video and rent audio 18:05:38 I seem to recall that borrowing was an option, but timing was tight? 18:06:00 tumbleweed: borrow from whom? 18:06:21 I'd like to add that FOSDEM decided to buy a batch of X220 laptops, since those were fast enough and could do what was needed, and their second-hand price is actually lower than renting laptops was 18:06:28 pollo: CarlFK 18:06:36 hey folks, sorry i'm late - i thought i was already in this channel 18:06:41 so I think that's a viable approach, if we can find the right equipment second hand 18:06:46 wouter: I don't think x220s are very useful for our workflow 18:06:59 tumbleweed: they don't need to be x220s :) 18:07:13 tumbleweed: the point is "buy slightly older second hand hardware", not "buy x220s" 18:07:25 tumbleweed pollo ... wut? 18:07:28 CarlFK: \o/ 18:07:30 we don't need computers 18:07:36 ah.. borrow. 18:07:37 pollo: surely we do? 18:07:47 well it's the least of my worry 18:07:56 we can always source some from the venue 18:08:04 Can we get PCs from the university? 18:08:08 I'm worried about video&audio equipment 18:08:24 it's still tbd, but chances are that we will be able to get some PCs 18:08:25 pollo: oh, right, fair enough 18:08:44 in that case, yes, we should look into AV equipment 18:09:02 I don't think we can buy audio this year since RattusRa1tus seems to be MIA 18:09:09 But I think we can still do video 18:09:17 I don't know if that'll ever change (rattus being busy) 18:09:26 I agree with the video purchasing, but need to happen soon 18:09:30 I don't think we should assume it will :) 18:09:34 we should probably not get stuck on him, and come up with a plan that we get his approval on 18:09:41 (or not, if he's busy) 18:10:01 depending on time frame (this DC or next), I'm happy to help with that 18:10:02 I think talking to Q_ might be a good option, too 18:10:16 he seems to understand audio well enough 18:10:18 so, let's step back a bit and recap where we are, to help drive the discussion 18:10:24 tumbleweed++ 18:10:27 all our hardware is ancient, we need to buy new hardware 18:10:40 50% chance I will be looking at renting 10+ cameras to feed into BM cards. I suspect (hope) that is a good option now 18:10:46 we've been hiring to supplement our old hardware, nad that's keeping us afloat 18:11:27 A new list drawn up during the sprint is here: 18:11:28 https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebConf/Video/VideoTeamDocs/NewVideoTeamHardware 18:11:32 the risk with that is that we don't get to really test things before we get to the venue 18:11:36 I think it's more than keeping us afloat; in some cases it's cheaper to rent locally than it is to ship halfway across the world 18:11:43 but at this point, I don't think we're going to get a sprint in before debconf 18:11:47 I am pretty sure shipping tripods and desktops around the world is not great. renting locally has advantages. 18:11:49 audio gear, in particular, is fairly cheap to rent usually 18:12:14 and universal enough to be risk-free 18:12:18 but I agree that buying new cameras is a good idea 18:12:47 if we want three rooms, we need six cameras. The two big cameras that we have support SDI, I think? so that means we are short four 18:12:48 * olasd nods tumbleweed 18:12:51 do we need 6 or 4? 18:12:58 cameras? 18:13:01 6 18:13:05 yeah 18:13:06 pollo: if we want to handle three rooms, we need six (two per room) 18:13:07 im curious how standard hdmi and sdi out is. like what are the chances of getting a camera that donesn't work with the bm card ? 18:13:12 I don't assert that we need three rooms, though 18:13:12 the two we have now are falling to pieces 18:13:16 ah ok 18:13:21 4 would would be surviveable, 6 is preferable 18:13:35 CarlFK: I think it's safe enough 18:13:42 CarlFK: we had one of the two we hired last year not work with the bm cards 18:13:43 * olasd nods tumbleweed again 18:13:45 olasd: we can probably get by with buying four now and two more later if that's what we can afford, budget wise 18:13:47 we also need 4 other bm cards 18:13:47 (provided we check the docs first) 18:13:51 maybe 5 to be sure 18:14:03 wouter: budget is the least of my worries 18:14:14 olasd: mm 18:14:26 yeah, DPLs have generally been on board with us spending what we need to 18:14:38 the problem has been finding the time to build the kit-list, and build the kit 18:14:54 okay, so that means we want to buy six cameras for dc17 which support SDI out and have decent optics 18:15:07 did anyone look at options and prices? 18:15:39 I don't think there's a good summary anywhere 18:15:52 CarlFK had some JVC cameras he liked, that were fairly cheap 18:15:53 with Dc17 orga I have no time for this 18:15:54 if not, I volunteer to do so; it's a long weekend here starting tomorrow, I can spend some of my spare time doing that 18:15:57 but xfxf doesn't like them, IIRC 18:16:07 pollo: yep 18:16:26 tumbleweed: xfxf bought one of my JVCs 18:16:45 yeah, he was grumbling about it 18:16:50 but that may just have been about the ethernet support 18:16:59 lol 18:17:01 (it's apparently pretty rubbish, but we don't want to use it anyway) 18:17:14 wouter: thanks, I think we should take you up on that 18:17:17 it's a fine camera, just the streaming out stuff is a bit rubbish 18:17:21 it does work... 18:17:37 #action wouter to investigate camera options this weekend and report back with a purchace plan 18:17:37 #action wouter to check prices and options for video cameras 18:17:40 heh :-) 18:17:42 :P 18:17:59 xfxf: you had a canon you were suggesting, too? 18:18:04 a link to whatever has been investigated earlier would be appreciated, so I have a place to start from 18:18:18 re renting HDMI/SDI cameras, I do all the time. Only hit one that didn't work with BM gear (HDMI) and my trusty scaler fixed that. SDI always works 18:18:26 the camera section on https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DebConf/Video/VideoTeamDocs/NewVideoTeamHardware has some requirements listed 18:18:33 okay, that works 18:18:59 right, are we done for cameras? 18:19:06 tumbleweed: I like my XA20. XA30 are current model.and a bit better, the 20's you can find on eBay for usd$600-800 18:19:08 tripods to go with them? 18:19:15 Xa25/xa35 add SDI 18:19:40 olasd: are the two tripods for the two big cameras that we have still viable? 18:19:52 yes 18:19:52 I think they are 18:20:26 okay, in that case we should probably get four tripods 18:20:33 so, we want 4 more nice tripods 18:20:39 I think you should rent tripods 18:20:45 that is also an option 18:21:04 wouter: and 5 new bm cards 18:21:05 pollo: would you be able to find us a local AV company? 18:21:10 I'll find the ones I bought for LCA recently , they're good for the price 18:21:11 CarlFK: if we're already shipping cameras around the world, adding tripods is trivial 18:21:12 (or should we be talking to the pycon people :P ) 18:21:13 also plan on renting LCD screens. it is anoying, but pfft. 18:21:21 tumbleweed: I think I'll have to rent things anyway, so I can deal with that 18:21:47 we have tons of screens we can take from the venue 18:21:53 pollo: thanks 18:21:56 Wouter: decent tripods way more than prosumer cameras 18:22:11 Weigh* 18:22:18 xfxf: oh, right 18:22:22 sure, but debconf video tends to ship about 8 flight cases 18:22:30 xfxf: I thought you meant "cost", in which case I would be surprised :-) 18:22:33 6 tripods isn't a *huge* addition to it 18:23:01 that reminds me 18:23:15 if we're going to buy more cameras, we'll need to store them somewhere 18:23:25 olasd did mention this in his email 18:23:29 right 18:23:32 he's suggesting renting a storage space in paris 18:23:36 that's one option 18:23:36 +1 to having everything in the same city 18:23:58 OTOH, it might also make sense to store them in a different continent (e.g., somewhere in NYC) 18:23:59 depending on budget, i tend to rent heavy tripods locally (makes a huge diff to quality), or ship my own lighter weight tripods 18:24:12 the decent ones usually become too cost prohibitive to freight 18:24:22 so that if there's a miniconf there, we can ship whichever half of the gear is closest 18:24:24 but, if you're shipping a bunch of stuff anywya, may be worth investing in some decent but mid-weight ones 18:24:43 g's decided to log me out of everything, i'll paste in a link to the tripods i like soon once I get back into my email :P 18:24:48 by shipping, we mean olasd travels with lots of luggage 18:25:01 tumbleweed: that's not what we always do 18:25:13 wouter: sure, but it's looking like that again this year 18:25:17 we have in the past few years, but I don't think it's the best option 18:25:25 and it's not sustainable with six cameras 18:25:27 we have money, what we are looking for is a simple setup 18:25:29 the prob is decent tripods are like 6-8kg. two/three of those and that's one checked bag 18:25:38 renting tons of things is not simple 18:25:43 the ones i use now i can pack like 6 in a bag + padding 18:26:05 wouter: the cameras are tiny in comparison to veerything else 18:26:23 tumbleweed: I didn't say "not possible", I said "not sustainable" 18:26:47 I don't agree. I think spreading thnigs around the world has sustainability problems too 18:26:48 tumbleweed: remember that we also add extra tripods and extra audio gear and extra everything else 18:26:55 I would say the more you rent the simpler it gets 18:26:56 it's more people in the critical path for a debconf 18:27:07 that is indeed the major downside to that 18:27:24 I think a Paris storage space is the best 18:27:25 and I'll grant you that we don't have anyone here who's in NYC 18:27:48 I agree with the motivation behind it, but I think we should centralise the kit for now 18:27:49 it's just an idea that I thought I'd pass around, but I agree that there are practical issues 18:27:54 (it worked out pretty well for the sprint, too) 18:28:02 okay, fair enough 18:28:06 is dc18 in NYC? 18:28:13 taiwan 18:28:13 taiwan 18:28:24 wouter: why NYC? 18:28:46 CarlFK: random suggestion, no real reason 18:28:47 it's quite possible that cambridge is a better option than paris 18:28:54 "major city at the other side of the atlantic" 18:28:59 montreal would work too, fwiw 18:29:06 let's pull things in again 18:29:08 as I said in my mail, cambridge is faaaaar from London 18:29:10 we've agreed to buy cameras 18:29:11 the problem with Cambridge is transport to and from 18:29:23 not suitable for sprints 18:29:23 pollo: it is? 18:29:28 these are v good for the price, and light (~4kg): https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/842086-REG/Magnus_VT_4000_VT_4000_Tripod_System.html 18:29:30 possibly tripods? but we should look into hiring them too 18:29:34 nattie: well when you come for 3 days it is 18:29:38 these are better, but weigh twice as much and cost more: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1046967-REG/e_image_eg03a2_e_image_two_stage_aluminum.html 18:29:40 pollo: it's an hour on the train 18:29:42 i prefer the latter, but i travel with the former 18:29:47 let's stick to paris for now -- we've been using that, and storage space should be doable 18:29:57 and London is 1h from the airport... 18:29:58 if we find a better alternative, we can always switch 18:30:46 #agreed keep storing kit in paris until we find a better alternative 18:30:46 the first isn't amazing but it's v good for the price, and may be cheaper than shipping 18:31:47 wouter: will you look at tripods too? or shall we just buy in US / hire? 18:32:06 s/US/CA/ maybe 18:32:11 tumbleweed: I can do that 18:32:12 isn't buying locally not an option because of taxes for FR return? 18:32:39 dunno. It certainly makes sending them to FR complex, yeah 18:32:40 my plan was to talk to a friend of mine who's a professional cameraman for videohouse (major pro video equipment rental firm in .be), so should be doable 18:32:55 haha, we'll get Red cameras 18:33:00 ok, let's price buying some in EU, and look at shipping 18:33:10 if buying locally means horrible shipping costs back and import tax, i'd probably just rent them - you'll probably pay similar money for some very high end tripods. you just want to make sure you match them with competent camera people and decent cameras or it's for moot, a cheap one will suffice 18:33:18 +1 18:33:22 +1 18:33:51 of course not owning tripods means we have to rent wherever we go (or buy at some point) 18:34:25 I think we should rent this year, and evaluate after debconf for possibly buying one next year 18:34:35 on a completely seperate note, they did live captioning here at pycon au. i noted what stenography software they used. looking at a FOSS implementation may be a new project i start poking at (like i don't have enough) - getting captioning into videos makes them infinitely more useful 18:34:36 s/one/four/, of course :-) 18:34:44 #action pollo to find an AV hire company in Montreal 18:34:59 er, s/pycon au/pycon us/. i don't know where i ma 18:35:05 #agreed tripods to be hired for dc17 18:35:12 audio? 18:35:17 hired too? 18:35:26 that was my plan 18:35:36 #agreed audio to be hired for dc17 18:35:48 yes please 18:35:54 that leaves us with PCs, SDI cable, and BM cards 18:35:57 oh, and opsis 18:36:00 audio equipment is way cheaper to rent than to buy 18:36:01 assume this is known, but scope out smaller local AV rental places, not the majors 18:36:18 xfxf: why? 18:36:33 better service, usually slightly better prices too 18:36:38 much cheaper, better service... yeah, as above 18:36:48 and the equipment usually is less abused too (surprisingly) 18:36:59 and we don't need the high amounts of stuff that major companies can source 18:37:11 for PCs, I'm 75% sure we'll get newish i7 towers and displays from the venue 18:37:14 we probably should have enough audio equipment for miniconfs, that we own 18:37:16 (which is why professional productions tend to go wth them) 18:37:35 pollo: that we can stick PCIe cards in? 18:37:36 just do it way in advance as possible as they'll have less gear + it'll probably all be rented out close to the conf 18:37:39 tumbleweed: yeah 18:37:42 pollo: and re-install, and have tons of disk space? 18:37:46 yeah 18:38:02 well tons, how much? 18:38:11 they may have 500gb onbaord 18:38:22 we may need to add HDDs if we want more 18:38:34 that's enough I think 18:38:43 yeah, it most certainly is 18:38:55 as usual, we also need a massive central storage server 18:39:01 with ~10TB 18:39:10 we may need more on the central server, but for the in-room machines, that's plenty 18:39:29 that has to be checked with lavamind. We'll get some old blade servers for sure 18:39:33 I dunno about storage 18:39:49 OK, we can talk about that in dc-team meetings anyway 18:39:55 right 18:39:59 #action tumbleweed to make sure there's a big central storage server 18:40:27 it looks like opsis boards are still available https://numato.com/numato-opsis-fpga-based-open-video-platform/ 18:40:31 so I guess we should get 2 or 3 18:40:39 how many (working ones) do we have? 18:40:43 3 18:40:48 did we manage to fix the broken one? 18:40:56 the new firmware should fix it 18:41:00 and how many do we need per room? 18:41:04 1 18:41:10 but we should have a spare, and one for dev, at least 18:41:27 +1 18:41:27 (if we're going to have a test-setup in cambridge, it'd need one) 18:41:38 how much were they? 18:41:40 (and probably one of our old cameras) 18:41:46 $500 18:41:55 (they were less during the crowdfunding campaign) 18:41:56 meh, yeah, get two or so then 18:42:25 if I buy them, I can sneak them into paris at some point 18:42:51 and get reimbursed with the other 3 we already bought :P (and haven't been reimbursed for yet) 18:43:17 #action tumbleweed to buy 2 opsis boards 18:43:31 what's left, blackmagic, SDI cable 18:43:35 SDI cable we can probably rent 18:43:39 yup 18:43:44 or buy on a spindle 18:43:49 I can buy BM cards if that makes sens 18:43:57 if RattusRa1tus is going to be there, we can then cut them at length 18:44:08 #info SDI cable to be rented locally 18:44:20 wouter: yeah 18:45:15 how many BM cards do we need? 6 or so? 18:45:24 4 and one spare? 18:45:24 (again, having some spares isn't a terrible idea) 18:45:26 one per camera 18:45:38 we have 2, need 6 in total 18:45:42 pollo: you want to buy 5? 18:45:50 how much were they again? 18:45:52 or should we be buying them in EU? 18:45:53 tumbleweed: I don't mind if it makes sense tax-wise 18:45:56 $200 ish IIRC? 18:46:01 yeah 18:46:03 $180ish. 18:46:04 spare would be useful 18:46:08 can Debian France buy stuff directly? 18:46:10 agree, spare is useful 18:46:23 pollo: never without DPL approval 18:46:24 pollo: yes, olasd is the treausurer, IIRC :P 18:46:30 oh oh .. xfxf has had good luck with bm's usb version of the card 18:46:34 (well yeah, approval) 18:46:41 the *new* usb version 18:46:43 then I think having Debian FR buy stuff would make more snes 18:46:43 the web presenter 18:46:49 not the shuttles, they don't do lunix well 18:46:55 fosdem has had some issues with the stuff they've been using 18:46:59 less trouble with reimbursement, taxes, etc 18:47:06 $350 I think, but means you dont need to install it in a desktop 18:47:08 they give you a standard 720p USB UVC off whatever you plug into it + it handles the downscaling 18:47:15 works fine with voctomix, recorded a conference in NZ with it a few months ago 18:47:23 olasd: can we action you for getting BM cards? 18:47:26 xfxf: we've been using the pci-e ones without obvious problmes 18:47:29 sude 18:47:33 sure* 18:47:36 pollo: ya, the advantage of these is they work with laptops 18:47:41 yeah, I think we should stick to what we've been testing 18:47:42 #action olasd to get 5 PM PCIe cards 18:47:44 which is pcie 18:47:57 wouter: "we" have been testing them ;) 18:48:04 i like having preconfigured laptops i bring with me. the idea of sticking a PCIe card into somebody elses computer horrifies me, even with installation automation 18:48:07 is there anything else to discuss in this agenda item? 18:48:28 xfxf: PCIe dosen't worry me *too* much 18:48:29 xfxf: I think we previously decided that owning laptops is a bad idea, financially 18:48:35 #info https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/964122-REG/blackmagic_design_decklink_mini_recorder.html 18:48:36 plus what tumbleweed just said :) 18:48:38 but yeah, hiring machines locally was risky :) 18:48:40 we seem to have covered 1 and 2 in one 18:48:44 it worked out alright at dc16 18:48:48 tumbleweed: neither, works 90% of the time, it's the 10% of the time where i've been burnt (faulty hardware, soem stupid chipset incompatibility, etc) 18:49:08 it's definitely a viable/understandable risk, but still one 18:49:11 xfxf: we've seen with the HP laptops that we own that things break down occasionally too 18:49:19 i opt for laptops. renting desktops is def a viable strategy 18:49:19 and then you've got issues as well 18:49:29 wouter: ah, what issues? 18:49:33 we should be buying machines eventually, probably 18:49:33 and yes. yay computers :P 18:49:41 +1 for buying machines 18:49:42 but at this point, hiring locally for montreal makes some sense 18:49:47 we can get itx boards 18:49:50 or max 18:49:50 I'd be OK either way 18:49:54 matx 18:49:57 there was a problem with some of the ieee1394 connectors wearing out in heidelberg 18:50:00 e.g. 18:50:01 s/hire/borrow/ 18:50:03 itx computetrs are still $$ to ship 18:50:05 what do you plan to hook the Opsis usb to? 18:50:12 I'm generally opposed to buying computer hardware at this point 18:50:15 CarlFK: good point 18:50:16 wouter: oh right, yes, seen that. firewire sucks, i think we can all agree on that 18:50:17 computers are (literally) everywhere 18:50:36 and PCIe should be pretty ubiquitous at this point 18:50:38 shall we buy more minnowboards then?+ 18:50:47 minnowboards? 18:50:48 the tests went well? 18:50:56 wouter: the board we had at the miniconf 18:50:59 err sprint 18:51:05 pollo: I think so 18:51:13 turbot minnowboard, small sbc x_86 computer 18:51:14 minnowboards/some sort of small device for presentation capture is a good idea 18:51:17 tumbleweed: I think I missed that 18:51:25 wouter: it's what rattus was doing 18:51:39 I think we should. I looked like great HW 18:51:39 well, I was mostly busy working on sreview, anyway :-) 18:52:08 anyone want to look at getting those in EU then? 18:52:14 it might be worth waiting a bit to see if the gig-e port on the opsis can function in place of the host box? 18:52:15 presumably they'll need cases too 18:52:31 I know RattusRa1tus wanted to mount them in the rackmount opsis cases we have 18:52:42 but that needs a plate of some sort 18:52:55 rackmount is kinda gross for something so small 18:52:58 CarlFK: that's not going to happen in time for dc17, so we'd need to use borrowed desktops in the meantime 18:53:26 tumbleweed: k - wasn't sure how it was coming 18:53:30 CarlFK: I don't argue that, but it's what we've got. It'll make more sense when there's a rack of audio equipment above it 18:53:42 I,ve got 15 desktop cases lying around on venue that we can scrap if needed 18:54:10 I don't think that necessarily helps. the minnowboards don't have ITX mounting holes 18:54:14 (they're a tiny dev board) 18:54:32 oh, I was thinking for opsises 18:54:39 ah, right 18:54:46 yeah, the'll be 2 that need cases :) 18:54:49 scrap the boards for plates, drill and insert spacers? 18:54:52 you put a rack of audio up by the presenter? 18:54:59 CarlFK: we want to 18:55:06 (but we don't have that, yet) 18:55:08 I 1/2 tried that. didnt' like it 18:55:24 CarlFK: it'd be nice to have RattusRa1tus for a conversation about that 18:55:28 CarlFK: RF reciever, opsis, laptop audio capture 18:55:32 put the mixer on the podium. 'mix yourself' 18:55:37 lol 18:55:37 :P 18:55:47 'if it sounds rubbish its your fault' 18:56:04 time is getting tight. Back to my question. is anyone going to buy minnowboards? 18:56:07 should I? 18:56:19 can't Debian France do it :D 18:56:19 should we just borrow pollo PCs? 18:56:31 oh, we can also do that 18:56:31 if you think they're worth it, but I think getting PCs from the university is a viable approach 18:56:56 I say we think about minnowboards with rattus 18:57:14 shall we ask rattus, and we can fall back to pollo PCs? 18:57:27 we had no answer from him for a while now 18:57:34 minnow - how can they be mounted? 18:57:55