09:57:11 #startmeeting 09:57:11 Meeting started Sun Jun 26 09:57:11 2011 UTC. The chair is arand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 09:57:11 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 09:57:26 there was also discussion on the fhs and deb-games lists about the fhs 09:57:33 s/fhs/fhs-discuss 09:57:37 wow, perfect timing 09:57:42 * Kamping_Kaiser appears for meeting \o/ 09:57:48 #topic Introductions 09:58:46 * Kamping_Kaiser is karl goetz, and helps maintain freeciv 09:58:59 I'm Paul Wise, packaging chromium-bsu, mancala, warzone2100 and some of Jason Rohrer's games. interested in growing the team, processes and stuff like that 09:59:17 * guus is Guus Sliepen, and maintains blobwars, blobandconquer, omega-rpg and crawl 09:59:35 So, to kick things off, hello, I'm arand, got in't pkg-games via the cube-verse and is now packaging a couple of games, recently Lugaru 09:59:49 I am Emmanuel Kasper and I co maintain the Mame arcade emulator 09:59:50 * arand Is too slow in writing :) 10:00:11 * udienz is Mahyuddin Susanto, i'm packaging gmult 10:00:11 berarma: hi, welcome to the meeting, please introduce yourself :) 10:00:42 hi, I'm just a casual gamer interested in games and Debian 10:00:44 :) 10:00:45 * kornerr is Michael Kapelko. new here. wants to have his OGS Mahjong in Debian 10:00:46 (i may drop out at random points, for some reason we have microdisconnects) 10:00:56 * ansgar maintains simutrans and some smaller games (which I neglect...). 10:01:33 berarma: whats yr favourite game? 10:01:34 I'm Thibaut Girka, have been using Debian for a while, and while I'm not in the team, I'm really interested in games (playing a lot, and currently writing one) and free software in general. 10:03:14 hi, i'm another casual observer who has come along to see how things work.. i know pabs, too 10:03:38 * pabs waves at gdm across the room 10:04:01 I'm Gerfried Fuchs, but please use Rhonda. I'm propably best known for looking after wesnoth these days. 10:04:17 pdewacht_: Welcome, meeting time, please introduce yourself :) 10:04:30 I have no static faves, I like changing, ah, my name is Bernat 10:06:23 I guess time for next topic. 10:06:36 I was trying to figure out if I should number these 10:07:02 #topic From last meeting: http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Meetings/2011-05-29 10:07:14 bad timing from the netsplit:/ 10:07:22 Yeah :/ 10:07:33 First off, the actions 10:08:08 #info http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-games/2011/debian-games.2011-05-29-11.03.html 10:08:46 Is shevek around? 10:09:43 I completed writing up usertags on the wiki: http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Policy 10:10:01 iirc they emailed thelist after the last meeting (i dont have the item handy), don't know if they've made the meeting though 10:10:02 DebConf11 hasn't started yet so I didn't yet do my lightning talks :) 10:11:35 and I think I helped magnate with his wiki page a little 10:11:45 Excellent! :) 10:11:46 * magnate is here 10:11:57 (but only partially - two children underfoot) 10:12:08 The mentioning of numbers in the actions is confusing. 10:12:16 Sorry to miss the intros 10:12:47 magnate created the wiki page he was going to: http://wiki.debian.org/Games/IntoDebian 10:13:00 The topic about the short video idea of mine will come later, right? 10:13:22 yep 10:13:33 arand organised the meeting :) 10:13:58 Rhonda: Yeah, I think the "From last, itme got a little messy" 10:14:03 Zhenech didn't yet give his debconf talk, since debconf didn't start yet :) 10:14:08 My wiki page is incomplete because my dev machine died - sorry 10:14:15 I will complete it when I've rebuilt the box 10:14:26 I also didn't edit other pages yet 10:14:39 Good to hear things are progressing though 10:14:42 what are FTBFSes in the Game/Policy? 10:14:59 kornerr: "Fails To Build From Source" 10:15:04 ah 10:15:20 kornerr: other terms in http://wiki.debian.org/Glossary 10:15:40 I guess thats all the actions from the last meeting 10:15:50 can I ask questions now about Games/Policy? 10:16:12 I would suggest waiting till later in the meeting 10:16:22 ok 10:16:54 Yep that's it for the actions I guess, I won't put down another follow-up item with shevek, I think 10:17:43 (This got mushed up into one item) I intended also to revisit some items from last meet 10:18:26 #topic Alioth migration - did everyone and everything survive it? 10:18:37 #info PET1 is back up 10:18:50 #link http://pkg-games.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/PET/qareport.cgi 10:19:01 I think that is all for alioth 10:19:11 Does it use cron now? 10:19:26 I was wondering about the link to DEP-5 10:19:29 * pabs has no idea, didn't put it back up 10:19:52 ansgar: did it use cron before? 10:20:12 (IIRC all cron jobs were lost when alioth was split into two machines) 10:20:19 No, it had commit hooks before. But now repository and PET1 live on different hosts → pkg-perl had to switch to cron. 10:20:32 If there is no cron job for pet, it will just display outdated data. 10:20:39 ok, I guess it still needs work then 10:21:05 #info PET1 needs a cron job setup, currently displaying old data 10:21:24 arand: http://dep.debian.net/deps/dep5 is there, dont' know about the 'static' links for it though 10:21:39 s/static/Format 10:22:19 It should have a static link to a revision of the DEP5, of which there are none atm, afaik. 10:23:10 yup. but with it open as a bug in policy, soon that'll be moved again anyway won't it? 10:23:28 Ah, no, there's http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/dep/web/deps/dep5.mdwn?revision=174&view=markup rather, but I'm not sure if this is the one to use 10:24:33 I guess that it's not really related to pkg-games specifically, though, so maybe leave that item? 10:25:24 i'd say so 10:25:27 #topic documentation regarding packaging 10:25:45 This was covered in the "From last meeting" topic, right? 10:25:58 yup 10:26:15 then its Rhonda s gig afterthis 10:26:48 #info This was covered in the "From last meeting" topic 10:27:02 #topic Screencasting/game presentations 10:27:09 Rhonda: yr up! 10:27:34 #info, the Debconf presentations was covered in the "From last meeting" topic 10:28:07 we did? 10:28:40 * pabs thinks not, only thing about that was The topic about the short video idea of mine will come later, right? 10:29:47 hmm, Rhonda seems AFK, I guess we move on 10:30:24 I though this was the talks, and since DebConf hasn't been yet.. 10:31:17 well, and also the screencasts / youtube videos idea. and for the debconf stuff we could have got some format/etc ideas 10:31:32 * pabs not sure what to do in his lightning talk 10:31:45 what is lightning talk? 10:32:14 Ok, I guess keep these items under this topic as well? 10:32:29 kornerr: 5 minute short talk at a conference 10:32:47 Ah, around now. 10:32:58 Sorry, young one got a bit more demanding. 10:34:07 I unfortunately didn't had so much time to investigate further, but I looked at recordmydesktop and byzanz, both seem to be able to produce something usable, though might be tricky with certain setups and get video and audio out of sync easily if not configured properly 10:34:37 I am still looking for other suggestions to give a try though, and hope to be able to find a bit more time soon 10:35:11 there was a opengl-specific things with really good results, but I think it's dead now 10:35:12 did you manage to work out the audio recording stuff? 10:35:15 … and all this shouldn't hold anyone else back from giving it a try themself. Maybe you think differently than me, have other sound setup, who knows. 10:35:46 AS mentioned earlier, I'm trying to package glc which is a "fraps-like" tool for openGL, but currently upstream is a but unresponsive 10:35:47 pabs: For recordmydesktop I did set the recording framerate to 2, which got video and audio in sync (for me). 10:35:56 I'm though not sure whether that is the best option. 10:36:33 recordmydesktop couldn't record audio for me when I was using Slackware. may be my on-board audio sucks 10:36:47 Also, I'd like to have the sounds produced by the desktop recorded directly, not through the feedback-loop to the speaker. 10:37:27 I think you need to do some routing magic with pulseaudio for that.. 10:38:08 Or pavucontrol, rather, but I'm not sure if it works with recordmydesktop 10:39:03 alsa can do that, no need for pulseaudio 10:39:18 So, shall we put this down as an action for next time? 10:39:40 ThibG: Ah, right, any good guides for it? 10:40:07 #info recordmydesktop & byzanz were tried, can get some sync issues if not configured properly (recording framerate 2) 10:41:19 arand, just select Mix as the recording source instead of Mic 10:41:26 #info audio output can be recorded using alsa 10:41:29 #link http://www.earth.li/~noodles/blog/2009/02/recording-application-sound-ou.html 10:41:54 #info or select Mix as the recording source instead of Mic 10:42:42 #info glc is another a/v recording option, packaging is ongoing, waiting for upstream 10:44:20 Rhonda: and about the lightning talks, did you have any suggestions for format etc? 10:44:42 are there any videos of debconfs? 10:45:01 kornerr: video.debian.net 10:45:14 and live streaming during the event 10:45:26 wow 10:45:43 yep, DebConf video team are awesome :) 10:46:12 oh man 10:46:15 there are lots of files 10:46:18 pabs: Well, potentially in a way that would work for a screencast too 10:48:33 * Rhonda . o O ( sorry, kid getting demanding again ) 10:48:59 Rhonda: ok, do you think you could do a wiki page (say Games/Present) about the talks and screencasts? 10:49:16 Is the idea to have game fotage running in the background whilst overlaying the talk? (regarding both talks and screencasts I guess :) 10:49:27 * pabs thinks so 10:49:38 * pabs nominates Rhonda to do the wiki page and suggests moving on 10:50:59 Put me into that action, yes 10:51:10 #action Rhonda to write a wiki page about presenting games (Games/Present) 10:51:29 arand: During the screencasts, obviously, explaining what's going on and such 10:52:14 Rhonda: Right, there's either that or actually playing the game whilst talking. 10:52:55 Anyhow, is this topic done we think? pabs mentioned something else abou video? 10:53:38 I think we are done, that was just providing some info to kornerr 10:53:45 :) 10:54:20 Ok, phew, I should've split that up better :) 10:54:25 #topic LiveCDs/Blends with a ready-to-play set of games 10:54:41 #link http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Blends 10:55:14 Ah, interesting topic! 10:55:17 * pabs forgets who was interested in the blends 10:55:21 SynrG? 10:55:24 I tried with grml-live for a while :) 10:55:43 SynrG is at least involved with debian-live 10:55:45 pabs: you were taliking about d-live with him, don't know if he was with blends too 10:55:54 I guess Fuddl had something there? 10:56:03 * kornerr wants his game in the blends 10:56:04 :P 10:56:27 We will have a hard time to put tremulous into there :) 10:56:32 … or even warzone 10:56:35 For CD though 10:56:56 how about a Debian games Blu-Ray disk :) 10:57:01 lol 10:57:24 * kornerr thinks DVD is enough 10:57:32 are tremulous and warzone big? 10:57:48 part of the blends idea was also to add blends for game devs/producers 10:58:31 ThibG, kornerr: what software are you using for making your games? 10:59:02 pabs: http://code.google.com/p/ogstudio/wiki/Redonation 10:59:05 quite a lot 10:59:38 inkscape, a lot 10:59:51 * pabs adds a link to that from the wiki page 11:00:21 otherwise, it's the runtime deps 11:00:25 (python, pygame, etc.) 11:02:52 added to the wiki 11:02:55 I sent my live DVD configuration to SynrG who played around with it 11:03:13 #info Fuddl sent his live DVD configuration to SynrG who played around with it 11:03:38 Fuddl: hmm, perhaps we should put it in SVN? 11:04:34 pabs: it turned out that my configuration was quite broken and I think I used the live helper tools not the-way-god-intended. better ask SynrG, I think he fixed it 11:04:52 pabs: and I vote for git over SVN ;) 11:05:02 Fuddl: sure :) 11:05:39 Fuddl: can you poke SynrG to create a repo and add it? 11:05:48 (and add a link on the wiki page) 11:05:51 svn is good for keeping binary data 11:05:52 pabs: ok, I'll do so 11:05:59 which can't be diff'ed 11:06:32 #action Fuddl to get SynrG to create a repo for the blends configs and add a link to the wiki page about it 11:06:47 what's the wiki page url? 11:06:58 #link http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Blends 11:09:06 Do we consider this topic covered? 11:09:31 I think so 11:09:44 we can start a thread on the list if not 11:10:05 #topic FHS regarding /usr/games et. al. 11:10:13 * Kamping_Kaiser better wake up for this bit 11:10:18 #link http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/games/2011-May/000369.html 11:10:26 finally 11:10:27 #link https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/fhs-discuss/2011-May/000002.html 11:11:18 So there was a lengthy discussion regarding this, with no proper end decision, so I was wondering if we have a common opinion in this? 11:11:27 I am quite strongly against /usr/share/games 11:11:38 hehe, I don't have a strong opinion about this ;) 11:11:45 * christoph doesn't care either 11:11:48 I vote for /usr/bin, /usr/share and may be /var/games 11:11:54 * pabs doesn't mind either way, but thinks consistency is a good idea 11:11:57 it's quite useless, and inconsistant 11:12:00 kornerr: why /var/games? 11:12:03 #link http://bugs.linux-foundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=766 11:12:06 I personally am neutral as well. 11:12:08 is the relevant bug report 11:12:29 to keep /var cleaner :) 11:12:35 it's particulary harmful when you consider XDG Basedir 11:12:36 but I'm fine with just /var. 11:12:47 /var/lib 11:13:04 Fedora, and many other distros don't use /usr/games and /share/games as far as I've understood thing? 11:13:13 yep 11:13:18 if you're using both /usr/share/games and XDG, you should use games/mygame everywhere 11:13:32 including ~/.config/games/mygame 11:13:41 yeah. /var/lib is nice since everyone else is there like mplayer and things 11:13:44 and I don't know of *any* game doing that 11:14:02 I guess the course of action should be to see what the final layout is listed by the FHS folks, then write some lintian warings about the deprecated paths 11:14:19 I use ~/.OGStudio because I don't only keep config, but also saves in there 11:14:26 #action pabs to investigate lintian warnings about deprecated FHS games paths 11:14:31 and the FHS is really light on the whole "games" thing 11:14:54 the only thing is a path, without description, and the "optional" mention, AFAIK 11:14:55 fwiw, the next FHS will only be able to make the games stuff optional and 'to be deprecated', ti'll need the release after to actually remove the dirs 11:15:30 ThibG: no, it has wordage for all games paths 11:15:40 Kamping_Kaiser: to be deprecated or deprecated? 11:16:10 pabs: marked optional, and 'will be removed in a future version' 11:16:25 pabs: so people have time to stop using it 11:16:37 #info the next FHS will make games-specific paths deprecated and removed in a future version 11:16:51 frankly, fhs 3 feels more like fhs 2.4, but thats not something that needs a meeting item *g* 11:16:52 Kamping_Kaiser: But is there any indication atm that this is likely to happen? 11:16:59 arand: what is likely? 11:17:27 that the deprecation will happen. and when will this be? 11:17:28 I got the impression that whether or not this would happen was not decided yet? 11:17:50 kornerr, I think game saves should go in config-specific dirs, but it's another debate 11:18:15 we decided to make it easier for a gamer to find everything in one place 11:18:20 at this stage its likely, but its not been discussed for the last month (so when its disucssed again it might change) 11:19:03 seems to me everyone but vorlon has no strong objections to the games stuff going away, but i don't know if there is going to be a renewwed bsd interest either 11:19:03 everything meaning user specific content 11:19:13 not binaries. 11:20:28 I don't think we seem to have a common opinion in the games team about this, (with seemingly the majority being neutral) 11:20:34 we will also keep downloadable content in ~/.OGStudio. 11:20:41 looks like the only viable option for any app 11:21:37 is the ~/.mygamestuff vs. ~/.config/mygamestuff covered by the current topic? 11:21:38 I don't understand why games are treated differently than any other package 11:21:47 Fuddl: not really 11:21:56 pabs: k, then I'll shut up ;) 11:22:04 Fuddl: FHS doesn't specify what goes into ~/ 11:22:07 Not intended when I wrote the agenda, no 11:22:20 Fuddl, it'd be ~/.config/games/mygamestuff vs ~/.config/mygamestuff, with regards to the topic :) 11:22:41 :) 11:22:55 heh ;) 11:23:46 Anyhow, I guess the people interested could re-ignite the discussion on FHS-ml et. al. 11:24:26 And as the games team we just keep aware that things may need changing if the change is made 11:25:11 (Since it doesn't seem to be the case that the games team can give a majority opinion on it) 11:25:24 Sounds ok? 11:25:59 yup 11:27:17 #info currently the majority opinion of the debian games team is neutral 11:27:44 nest topic 11:27:51 *next 11:27:59 #topic Fullscreen/windowed games, policy? 11:28:43 I prefer windowed by default, with a config option for full-screen 11:28:50 too 11:29:01 * kornerr has that in his game 11:29:03 I prefer windowed, but I don't think it's the real problem 11:29:10 I agree there 11:29:11 the real problem being grabbed input 11:29:31 * guus would like every game to use the same hotkey to switch. Or maybe one of a small list of common hotkeys, like ctrl-enter, F11, F. 11:29:31 wow 11:29:34 That is windowed by default, with option 11:29:36 netsplliiiiit 11:29:38 #link http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2011/05/msg00134.html 11:30:01 * kornerr had F11 before. 11:30:06 may be F11 then only? 11:30:09 looks universal 11:30:10 Or maybe have them react properly to the window manager. 11:31:00 indeed, reacting to WM hints/events is the way to go 11:31:25 what kind of reacting to hints? 11:31:32 I find SDL quite broken for fullscreen stuff :( 11:31:34 can wm say 'no' to fullscreen apps? :) 11:31:44 say->hint 11:32:15 Many games don't respond to alt-tab, or media volume keys whilst fullscreened 11:32:15 Another problem of SDL is selecting the right video mode, or presenting a list of them. 11:32:20 kornerr: if user presses the wm full-screen key 11:32:33 is there such a button? 11:32:43 arand, yeah, and that sucks 11:32:50 kornerr: in GNOME it is F11 IIRC 11:32:53 * guus has Alt-F11 bound to "force fullscreen" in xfwm. 11:33:03 (although it's a way to ensure it'll work for almost any game on any wm) 11:33:17 guus: SDL has functions for that, but IIRC they only deal with one screen 11:33:17 jeez 11:33:17 netjoin 11:33:24 yeah. SDL is known for one-screen thing 11:33:31 1.3 promised to deal with that iirc 11:33:42 pabs: yes, but if you have a 1920x1200 or bigger screen, you have a gazillion possible modes it will return. 11:33:53 ah, we're back 11:34:06 * kornerr only knows that Opera uses F11 for fullscreen 11:34:09 pabs: it would be nice to filter them on aspect ratio and even divisions, perhaps. 11:34:18 I'm for windowed by default 11:34:23 we all 11:34:44 The problem is that since SDL has been grabbing and overriding everything for so long, games may expect this behavior 11:34:50 (I'm talking about the alt-tab thing) 11:35:07 How much of this could/should be done in packaging, and how? 11:35:34 one can switch from OGS Mahjong on Alt-Tab, but if it's in 640x480 FS, you switch to 640x480 desktop 11:35:48 Kamping_Kaiser: netsplit-conversation: http://paste.debian.net/121049/ 11:36:12 pabs: thanks 11:36:49 Hm, maybe this is something for freedesktop.org to standardize? 11:37:05 arand: probably none, I think patches (forwarded upstream) is the only way 11:37:29 and/or bug reports 11:37:50 guus: agreed, could you bring it up on the games list 11:37:59 Ok. 11:38:20 We could put it down on the upstream recommendations wiki? 11:38:45 URL? 11:38:47 #action guus to talk about full-screen behaviour on games@lists.freedesktop.org 11:39:10 guus: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Games/Upstream 11:39:27 Anything else I might bring up at the same time? Standardised hotkeys for load/save/inventory/whatever? Other issues? 11:39:56 perhaps that P2P high scores protocol idea? 11:40:27 I missed that 11:41:10 guus: http://lists.debian.org/868574.84653.qm@web180606.mail.sp1.yahoo.com 11:41:25 pabs: oh, I was thinking debian-games had a wiki similar, but of course that would be the best place for it. 11:41:50 guus: also the next agenda topic probably needs bringing up there too 11:42:43 Should I put down an agreement that we want windowed by default (with a fullscreen option) 11:42:56 * pabs thinks so 11:42:58 pabs: ok 11:43:43 or config window at the first start 11:43:48 some Windows games do that 11:44:33 ok, I need to go. no ideas about the rest of the agenda items but I volunteer to start a discussion on the list about extending debtags, documenting the discussion on the wiki and talking to the debtags maintainers about adding the new tags 11:44:38 mandatory command-line options to force windowed or full-screen would help too. 11:45:29 #agreed we prefer games to start windowed by default (with fullscreen option) 11:45:44 morning 11:45:51 hi SynrG 11:46:11 it's early for me. missed the discussion above :/ 11:46:35 SynrG: Welcome, we're currently finishing off point 4 11:47:22 So do we have more things on this topic? 11:48:33 not from me, agreed to windowed by default ;) 11:48:33 #info Work with upstream on this (bugs, patches, etc.) 11:50:07 #topic How to make sure that users of a graphical desktop environment find the manual (...) of a game? (...) 11:50:32 that's some nice topic 11:50:42 certainly in-game help is the gold standard? 11:51:02 * pabs notes that there is no doc-base like freedesktop standard 11:51:13 doc-base? 11:51:18 does manual mean the manual how to play the game or something like the manpage or READMEs in /usr/share/doc/PACKAGE? 11:51:21 * pabs notes that doc-base is next to useless on desktops 11:51:22 I think this topic was lindi-'s 11:51:38 doc-base is /usr/doc? 11:51:57 For triplane which has limited ingame documentation capabilities 11:52:18 kornerr: http://packages.debian.org/sid/doc-base 11:52:20 * pabs off 11:52:36 oh 11:52:48 like man pages I guess then 11:53:18 well, then goplay? that's the next closest thing we have to a game index 11:53:21 #info Full topic: How to make sure that users of a graphical desktop environment find the manual (think PDF with images, not a man page that you view from a terminal emulator) of a game? In SDL programs it is often not easy to integrate this to the in-game menu system. 11:54:03 does the standard for .desktop files offer something? 11:54:06 or is that a misfit because it is aimed at stuff not yet installed? 11:54:10 ^ This is what was given, the specific case for triplane is that it's basically a DOS-ish game with a manual in PDF format 11:54:33 freeciv gtk has in game help through civilopedia, i dont' have the sdl version installed to test with 11:55:14 goplay could include a URL to any doc for the game ... 11:56:14 any link for goplay? 11:56:17 (i just checked, freeciv calls it 'freeciv help browser') 11:56:38 otherwise, people are expected (as with any other package, not game-specific) to be able to find doc under /usr/share//doc 11:57:12 apt-cache show goplay 11:58:13 alternatives that I can think of: 1- in-game. 2- from a desktop entry in the menus. 2- from the package manager. 3- help integrated in the desktop manager help 12:00:08 berarma: does 1 include 'game launches pdf viewer' or just 'game includes native help browsing' 12:00:20 s/pdf/html or other format 12:00:27 I think additional desktop entries is not a good idea.. (it sounds as though it should break some policy) 12:00:34 native one 12:00:37 surely 12:00:54 native browsing but launching viewer would work too 12:00:59 * kornerr doesn't use html, uses hard coded layout 12:01:18 * ThibG doesn't use help muhahaha 12:01:25 how is that handled on windows or mac? 12:01:30 (or any sort of user doc) 12:01:57 xdg-open should open any help file 12:02:18 ThibG: hard core developer :P 12:02:52 * kornerr doesn't play Windows board games, can't say anything of help files 12:03:07 I can't remember anything of the sort for Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Witcher, etc 12:03:18 only some PDF installed into Start menu may be 12:03:21 kornerr, well, the controls are pretty easy to pick up, and there is a tutorial (with absolutely no wording in it huhuhu) 12:03:26 * kornerr recalls that one PDF from Morrowind 12:03:35 Fuddl: AFAIR games create a menu subfolder with links to help 12:03:46 ThibG: yeah. that's good then when no help needed. 12:03:47 that's for windows 12:04:00 many windows games just put the documentation on the website 12:04:10 since you need to go the website anyway to get the game 12:04:38 how about doing it the same way? create a sub directory for each game and add menu entries to start the game, read a PDF, etc.? 12:05:29 then one would need to make both in-game and out-game docs :) 12:05:42 Fuddl, I think it's overkill, but I have no strong opinion against it 12:05:43 I would disagree to creating desktop entries just for help items 12:06:26 disagreei disagree too 12:06:45 I think it's not very unix way 12:06:46 Another alternative is to have a launcher dialogue. 12:07:15 But I think that's a bit ugly to. 12:07:30 launcher for games? 12:07:32 I think the package manager is a better place 12:07:50 launcher for a game, i.e., for it's other options? 12:08:04 wonder if there is a/seeral help browsers that could be split into libraries for use by upstreams? 12:08:21 'we suggest builing with libgtk-help-browser and help magically works' 12:08:37 * kornerr doesn't think anything of the sort exists 12:08:51 I think html is the best option with xdg-utils 12:08:52 kornerr: a window with "start game" "read help" basically (many does pre-launch options etc. this way) 12:09:07 arand: yeah. launcher could help, but it's not very suitable for small games 12:09:21 a launcher means you have to relaunch the game to get help while in the game 12:09:28 which isn't an improvement 12:09:31 kornerr: It is an annoyance in the long run, indeed 12:09:46 big games have launchers like Dragon Age 12:09:58 wasn't annoying, but I didn't press anything other than Play :P 12:10:28 brb 12:10:31 would it be possible to run a keyboard utility while the game is running that would catch some key combination and launch a command? 12:11:03 berarma: I don't quite follow documentation-in-pkg-manager? Like a link in software-centre? 12:11:55 yes, that's it, maybe because that's the first and only place to find info about the game for desktop users 12:12:00 I guess smth like game, and game-doc packages 12:12:03 berarma: I think that's hard to do. a lot of games use different methods to grad keyboard input, bypassing the window manager and stuff 12:12:17 much like gimp and gimp-help/doc iirc 12:12:34 but still, packager is not the place to launch help 12:12:50 I would love some central help repository 12:13:21 kornerr, that'd be good not only for games :) 12:13:32 I recall there is/was some KDE help center 12:13:42 it used to display man pages as well 12:13:54 wait. KDE has some sort of central help browser 12:13:57 gnome has also a help center meant as a central place for desktop users, ala Windows 12:13:59 all KDE apps display help in there 12:14:06 but it's underused 12:14:58 will users think of System → Help? that's too trivial and obvious ;) 12:15:26 I think the KDE/Gnome help things are interesting, some sort of "upgraded" man pages 12:15:32 but it has to be standardized 12:15:36 yeah. 12:15:39 This also seems to be much of an "upstream recommendations" thing. 12:15:40 I'm not writing a gnome game, nor a KDE game 12:15:47 me too 12:16:08 which will be A LOT of work to make every game upstream use a standard to document their game... 12:16:28 sure 12:17:11 F1 is a standard key for help 12:17:35 not in games 12:17:38 would it be possible to recommend upstream the use of this key to trigger an external command for help? 12:17:53