12:07:46 <apo> #startmeeting 12:07:46 <MeetBot> Meeting started Sat Aug 17 12:07:46 2013 UTC. The chair is apo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 12:07:46 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 12:08:05 <apo> Hi all, welcome to our little Games Team meeting 12:08:06 <Baby> I've already sent an email to the least from this morning's BoF here in Vaumarcus 12:08:11 <apo> #topic Introduction 12:08:26 <apo> who is who, please introduce yourselves 12:08:45 <Baby> who starts? 12:08:57 <apo> you :) 12:09:00 <Zhenech> you 12:09:13 <arand> Hmm, oh, seems I happened to check IRC at the right time :) 12:09:18 <mongrol> irc is sequential, does it matter? 12:09:35 <Baby> :P 12:10:03 <apo> Hi, my name is Markus Koschany, I have updated some games for the team and introduced FreeOrion, Bullet, Drascula and Lure of the Temptress already! 12:10:23 <Baby> well I'm Miriam, I'm in Vaumarcus atm and I'm this ex-blonde girl who has been involved in the team for a while :) 12:10:37 <Calinou> le games meeting 12:10:47 <Sicness> Hi, my name is Anton Balashov. I'm a maintainer of curseofwar package and a new team member 12:11:02 <Baby> welcome :) 12:11:08 <bdefreese> Welcome 12:11:09 <Sicness> Thx ) 12:11:18 * pabs Paul Wise, maintaining warzon2100, some art games and a board game. initiated some things like IRC meetings and thought up some ideas like work/screenshots parties 12:11:19 <ansgar> I'm Ansgar. I maintain also a few games in the team, but am not that active. 12:11:24 <mongrol> G'day, I'm Steve Hamilton, adopter of Powder (roguelike) and packager of Mr Rescue. New team member. 12:11:27 <arand> Martin Werner, I'm somewhat inactive at the moment, but I maintain redeclipse, lugaru(openlugaru) and lierolibre. 12:11:30 <ansgar> I spend too much time with other stuff :) 12:11:31 * pabs semi-inactive 12:11:54 <berenm> Hi, Beren Minor here and I've been invited by Paul Wise to the team a few weeks ago to help maintaining GemRB 12:11:54 <bdefreese> I am Barry deFreese. I am just a clean up man because I don't know anything.. :) 12:12:01 <apo> ^^ 12:12:22 <Baby> :) 12:12:25 <bdefreese> Welcome mongrol berenm 12:12:29 <Zhenech> he is also bdefreese who is to ask about hurd fuckup, even if he does not know thing 12:12:30 <mongrol> ta 12:12:49 <bdefreese> heh 12:13:30 <Zhenech> I'm Evgeni Golov, waaaay to inactive in the last time, maintaining pokerth and some other small things :) 12:13:51 <debianer_> Hi, I´am new at Debian (since one year) and I´ve done some work on the wiki page: https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Suggested 12:14:14 <Baby> cool :) 12:14:17 <arand> debianer_: welcome 12:14:24 <apo> it seems more people are present than expected, but Bas and Vincent Prat seem to be missing and Stephen 12:14:34 <bdefreese> Welcome debianer_ 12:14:35 <apo> anyway welcome on board everyone 12:15:09 <apo> ok let's move to our first agenda topic 12:15:19 <apo> #topic New member recruitment 12:15:32 <Baby> can someone send the log later to the list or something, or making some minutes, in case someone else wants to read it afterwards? 12:15:54 <pabs> meetbot is doing that :) 12:15:54 <MeetBot> pabs: Error: "is" is not a valid command. 12:16:00 <apo> I will link the log on this page later, https://wiki.debian.org/Games/Meetings/2013-08-17 12:16:21 <Baby> lol 12:16:25 <Baby> thanks pabs 12:16:34 <Baby> thnaks apo :) 12:17:14 <apo> ok, we are always looking for new members. But what can we do to find even more vic..ehm members? 12:17:46 <apo> I thought about posting "advertisements" in game forums to make the Games Team more visible to the community 12:17:58 <bdefreese> Well first could we say what the "team" actually means? A group of individuals maintaining their pet packages is no "team" IMWO 12:18:08 <apo> that's true! 12:18:31 * Baby nods 12:18:34 <mongrol> good point, what does it mean? 12:18:50 <mongrol> I've yet to get any packages sponsored so I'm not sure where the "team" bit is 12:19:17 <bdefreese> mongrol: Sorry, hit me up in IRC for sponsoers, I have a hard time keeping up with e-mail. :( 12:19:28 <mongrol> np 12:19:35 <Baby> yup, I don't think we're doing too well in that sense, sponsoring and mentoring, mea culpa too 12:19:41 <bdefreese> To me, it means if I have a package and haven't taken care of it or if someone can fix a bug in my package, please update/upload/etc 12:19:42 <debianer_> i think the point is: first we need more people, who package games for debian 12:19:54 <Calinou> as if packaging was too easy, and games were too free 12:19:59 <Calinou> (@debianer_) 12:20:10 <Calinou> and as if FOSS games had too many players 12:20:17 <mongrol> as a n00b, I've taken to looking at all the teams packages and fixing up what I can, leanring as I go. 12:20:38 <mongrol> so I have the view that we don't have "pet" packages as such, but we're free to improve any of the packages under our tag 12:20:38 <apo> From the point of new of a newcomer: I think a team is more inviting if we have a working sponsors queue, at least we should have sponsors for fixing RC bugs 12:20:43 <apo> view 12:20:52 * pabs goes to DebConf13 lightning talks 12:20:55 <arand> My impression, and how the the games team has helped me is: finding sponsors, finding help on game-specific topics, and getting patches from helpful team members. 12:20:58 <pabs> bye folks 12:21:08 <bdefreese> debianer_: Agreed to a point. However, we have a ton of games already that are not being maintained well so are we just compounding the problem if we keep adding new members/packages? 12:21:16 <bdefreese> Later pabs 12:21:19 <apo> bye 12:21:35 <Baby> I think there are still a lot of new games that need to be added 12:21:41 <bdefreese> mongrol: That is my thought as well. However, some do get touchy if you touch their packages. 12:22:11 <mongrol> let's not get off track 12:22:24 <bdefreese> Hence apparently why we stopped the "Team Uploads" ?? 12:22:25 <berenm> if there are ton of games to maintain, wouldn't it worth it to try prioritize them, like by popularity ? 12:22:52 <mongrol> there's been a resurgence in linux gaming sites recently, we should "infiltrate" their ranks and pilfer victims 12:22:52 <Baby> you mean manually or automatically? like sorted by popcon? 12:22:53 <debianer_> bdefreese all: Is the main problem that we have enough people, who maintain games in debian, but not in the games team? 12:23:07 <mongrol> lgdb.org, linuxgamingnews.com, rootgamer.com 12:23:17 <mongrol> all very active and LGN in particular has a community gathering 12:23:56 <debianer_> Baby: I agree with you :) 12:24:01 <bdefreese> debianer_: No, I don't think so. 12:24:57 <berenm> not sure how to prioritize, and it's maybe a subjective feeling, but for example I was very surprised not to find an active gemrb package already, whereas it's a must-have if you want to play Baldurs Gate game series 12:25:11 <mongrol> arf, gamingonlinux.com is the growing one 12:25:17 <berenm> although it was very easy to package, working very well, with an active upstream 12:25:20 <arand> berenm: Since it's volunteer work, priorities tends to land on games that the maintainers are interested in, not necessarily those which are popular (though it can often correlate). 12:25:33 <bdefreese> I think we all have different strengths and weakness and we need to play off of those. For example, I touch a lot of packages but I am not a hardcore developer and my time is limited to small chunks. 12:25:52 <bdefreese> arand: Exactly 12:26:05 <Baby> I think that we're lacking more coordination than anything else 12:26:10 <bdefreese> Yep 12:26:32 <berenm> arand: sure but I would guess that maintaining a game that people actually play is more rewarding and more useful 12:26:41 <Baby> so any suggestion on how to improve coordination inside the team? 12:26:45 <pabs> shall we hire Anreas Tille? 12:26:58 <mongrol> appoint a leader 12:27:03 <apo> bdefreese: yeah, but you are one of the people who get a lot of things done, you have fixed so many packages in the past two months, I think we just need 1-3 more DDs who can sponsor the work of other team members 12:27:05 <berenm> and the debian game team, as a team, should probably focus on games that Debian users would like to play, not games that maintainers like to play on their side 12:27:52 <Baby> maybe we could benefit of having someone coordinating, that would also be a good place to have someone who could help Debian in a different way than packaging 12:28:00 <mongrol> hold up, aren't we drifting off the agenda topic? 12:28:05 <Baby> yup 12:28:12 <arand> AS 12:28:15 <arand> ups 12:28:37 <apo> true, the questions is how can we attract more people for the games team but also how can we attract more sponsors who help with sponsoring? 12:29:09 <mongrol> ok, for new members I suggest promoting the games team within the currently growing linux gaming ecosphere 12:29:10 <apo> I think having sponsors is crucial to every team 12:29:29 <bdefreese> Agreed. 12:29:37 <Baby> for promoting the team, some things were debated this morning, I sent an email to the list about it 12:29:42 <Calinou> mongrol: linux non-free gaming ecosphere* 12:29:53 <mongrol> there are a number of sites popping up and while this is on the back of Steam, they are still covering FOSS gaming and growing the community 12:29:56 <Calinou> FOSS games are getting more and more hated on, this is a serious issue 12:30:02 <arand> As for reqruiting, I think that the most effective is to try to pull in people from upstream, I'm not sure if such "outreach" could be improved somehow? 12:30:13 <debianer_> Are any DDs here? 12:30:15 <Baby> more hated on in what sense? 12:30:18 * Baby is DD 12:30:25 <Calinou> read random forums, reddit, and such 12:30:28 <bdefreese> But we need to attract some generalists too that don't mind working with multiple packages, not just their pets 12:30:35 <bdefreese> Baby: Don't feed the troll 12:30:36 <debianer_> When we need some sponsors and the other DDs do some other work for debian (not sponsoring packages) - why not somebody of you become a DD for sponsoring packages? 12:30:38 <bdefreese> debianer_: I am a dd 12:30:39 <Calinou> also look at the amount of players, we don't have more than before 12:30:50 <Calinou> bdefreese: trollcalling is 1) an insult, 2) ad hominem 12:31:02 <Calinou> insults are bad. don't do them 12:31:03 <apo> Calinou please stop that, thank you 12:31:06 <mongrol> in the interests of bedtime, I'll take an action to audit potential sites to promote on, and knock up a promotion draft. 12:31:12 <Calinou> apo: what do you have against me? 12:31:13 <bdefreese> Calinou: Sorry, I don't like to be mean but you bring nothing to this group. 12:31:14 <Baby> they are free to choose anything differnent than Free Software, we can't fight that 12:31:16 <ansgar> debianer_: There's the danger of ending up doing other stuff once you are a DD too ;) 12:31:29 <bdefreese> Aye 12:31:49 <apo> #action mongrol take an action to audit potential sites to promote on, and knock up 12:31:52 <apo> a promotion draft. 12:31:53 <apo> ups 12:32:09 <bdefreese> I well tell you that part of the problem I have a sponsor is not knowing who is actually on our team when e-mails come through. Hence why I prefer IRC 12:32:18 <Baby> I think we should concentrate of providing the best games we can, in the best conditions we can, and promoting that 12:32:31 <Baby> outside of that scope, I don't think it's in our hands 12:32:40 <bdefreese> Plus I don't know if someone is already looking at it, so to Baby's point about coordination 12:32:53 <apo> #action mongrol will take an action to audit potential sites to promote on and knock up a promotion draft 12:32:59 <arand> That's true, gaming sites might be good to attract generalists, whereas upstream projects is for specialsts :) I guess 12:33:00 <mongrol> another target I think is to encourage upstream to package there games for debian. 12:33:24 <Baby> some are already doing for Ubuntu 12:33:25 <debianer_> ansgar: Yes. But I think we need DDs who only or most sponsor games packages. 12:33:32 <Baby> if we had Debian PPAs , that would help 12:33:39 <apo> #info encourage upstream to package their games for debian 12:33:48 <ansgar> Baby: PPAs would help with? 12:34:02 <Baby> upstream packaging their games for debian 12:34:23 <Baby> many are already doing that for Ubuntu 12:34:25 <ansgar> Ah, those might take ${longtime} until we get them. 12:35:06 <Baby> so, how do we improve coordination, or how do we manage to get a person who can act as coordinator? 12:35:34 <apo> I think the mailing list is a good place for coordination 12:35:34 <mongrol> vote?, nominations? 12:35:54 <mongrol> role of coordinator needs to be defined 12:36:14 <Baby> after being in contact with communities like mozilla, gnome or ubuntu, I think that a person doing that task explicitly might help 12:36:41 <Baby> and it might be a task that a non-coder might be able to do quite successfully 12:36:53 <mongrol> speaking as a new team member, having someone tell me what to do would be beneficial 12:37:02 <bdefreese> I would be glad to but I don't think I can commit the time. My RL job may take me out of pocket for long periods. :( 12:37:35 <bdefreese> mongrol: I can give you plenty to do. :) 12:37:50 <Baby> well, we don't need to have an answer right now, it might just a thing to think about 12:38:33 <apo> #info does the team needs a coordinator who steers the team? 12:38:41 <Baby> so we need: a) more coordination b) a better sponsoring workflow 12:38:48 <debianer_> yep 12:39:07 <apo> agreed 12:39:52 <Baby> maybe the sponsoring workflow might benefit from peer reviewing, that is the most time consuming part for me when sponsoring something 12:40:07 <bdefreese> Is there any type of e-mail integration with the wiki? It's hard to remember to check the wiki and there is so much stuff intermingled in the mentors ML stuff gets lost to me 12:40:25 <ansgar> bdefreese: You can subscribe to wiki pacges and get mail when they change. 12:40:46 * mongrol points at the topic 12:40:55 <bdefreese> Ah, OK, maybe I should do that. Are people actually using the queue? 12:40:58 <Sicness> "encourage upstream to package their games for debian" everyone wants to package his game for Ubuntu. And there is only one way to get in official Ubuntu - via Debian. We gets new members here. Maybe we should inform some them how what that can easy do the same for Debian -> Ubuntu. 12:41:32 <mongrol> as in if you target Debian you get Ubuntu for free 12:41:39 <Baby> yup 12:41:46 <Nemoder> Hi, I'm only a debian user here but I wanted to mention something that's been a problem for some time: multiplayer game packages lag behind upstream so often that they are mostly unplayable on the majority of servers. Has the game team put any thought into hosting their own servers to be compatible with debian versions and possibly using that as a recruitment tool? 12:41:47 <bdefreese> Sicness: Aye, that is another thing we need to tackle. The perception that it is hard to get stuff into Debian. Which in many cases is true. :( 12:42:36 <debianer_> Nemoder: When you are using stable, you can use the backports. 12:42:44 <Zhenech> Nemoder, i did so with pokerth, but the traffic was extremely low on them 12:43:01 <Baby> Nemoder: Even though the idea is very attractive, I don't think anyone has already stepped in offering to manage the servers needed for that 12:43:13 <apo> ok, thanks for the brainstorming so far. 12:43:20 <mongrol> another idea. Is it possible to reach out to community members of popular games (e.g. Xonotic) to help packaging of their fave title 12:43:21 <Zhenech> debianer_, not always, sometimes you need a new heavy lib and thats not really backportable 12:43:36 <Nemoder> debianer_: even with backports or expirimental they are often too far behind as upstream updates daily and most of the other platforms update directly from upstream 12:43:52 <Nemoder> well maybe not daily, but often enough to be an issue 12:43:55 <apo> let's summarize this topic and define tasks how we can improve the whole "new member recruitment" process 12:44:11 <Baby> as a side note 12:44:37 <Baby> we might want to coordinate ourselves with the currently being created welcoming team 12:45:05 <bdefreese> Is that going anywhere? 12:45:15 <Baby> it seems so 12:45:29 <Baby> at least the efforts that are being put on that seems reasonable 12:45:42 <apo> #idea we might want to coordinate ourselves with the welcoming team 12:46:02 <Baby> paulproteus is leading that, and I'm involved in the welcoming team too 12:46:22 <bdefreese> Cool 12:46:35 <Calinou> mongrol: I guess few players would know how to help? 12:47:08 <mongrol> cal: I'm talking about modding communities. These guys are usually very technical 12:47:38 <Baby> my impression is that if we kept making some noise about the team (weekcly news?) and provided a comfortable entry path and sponsoring process, that would be all we needed to get many more people 12:48:18 <mongrol> agreed, "comfortable entry path and sponsor process" needs work 12:48:27 <bdefreese> In fairness to Calinou he does have a point about games in general. Many of the "cool" games would need to go into contrib/non-free which is inherently against what Debian stands for. Do we want to promote that? 12:48:36 <debianer_> weekly need sounds great :) 12:48:48 <debianer_> but somebody must create them 12:48:54 <apo> Baby: I agree. I volunteer to help you with reviewing packages. 12:48:57 <bdefreese> We need a non-developer media person. :) 12:49:10 <debianer_> who had contact with the packaging status of the games 12:49:24 <Baby> apo: thanks! 12:49:39 <Baby> bdefreese: yup, that would be the best 12:49:43 <apo> #action apo helps with reviewing team maintained packages 12:50:02 <debianer_> you who had contact with the packagers, so he knows the packaging status** 12:50:03 <captnfab> (hi games-team) I was wondering, is there a community of debian gamers? There are a lot of communities/forums of debian users, which naturally produces/selects powerusers, but isn't that the kind of thing that would be of great help to the game team ? 12:50:13 <mongrol> while I'm talking to the news sites I'll enquire as to their appetite for news updates 12:50:30 <captnfab> this would ensure the arrival of newcommers and give to the team a feedback about the games 12:50:45 <bdefreese> BTW, is there a good place we can post tasks? To mongrol's point, I have a bunch of things that I could use help on but not sure where to put them. IRC seems to be mostly quiet most of the time. :( 12:51:17 <mongrol> a kanban wall! 12:51:26 <Baby> bdefreese: we would need something for that, wiki doesn't seem to work too well for that 12:51:44 <mongrol> doesn't alioth handle tasks/assignment? 12:51:47 <apo> bdefreese: I'm reading the list and it is far easier for me to follow mails than to observe the IRC channel. Why don't we simply use the list for all coordination work? 12:52:18 <bdefreese> apo: Understood but ML's aren't real-time enough sometimes :( 12:52:47 <Baby> bdefreese: maybe we could setup something in alioth, we can put code there right? 12:52:57 <bdefreese> Yep 12:53:11 <Baby> and it shouldn't be that difficult 12:53:27 <ansgar> Alioth has a issue tracker. 12:53:34 <ansgar> Or one could be lazy and use a Wiki page. 12:53:51 <Baby> the wiki we have tried using for some time 12:53:54 <Zhenech> gforge issue tracker is… wiki is better 12:54:02 <Baby> I don't have the feeling that it's the best tool for that 12:54:24 <ansgar> Installing application on Alioth is sometimes not so great as people tend not to update them. 12:54:42 <ansgar> And then one ends with Wikis full of spam there (random example). 12:54:54 <Zhenech> ask don to get us a pseudopackage at bugs.d.o? 12:54:57 <mongrol> whats wrong with the issue tracker? 12:55:21 <Zhenech> mongrol, i always saw it as an unusable piece of website 12:55:26 <Zhenech> maybe its just me 12:55:35 <mongrol> fair enough, I've never seen it used 12:55:38 <Baby> I never tried it 12:56:07 <bdefreese> I don't necessarily mean code I just wants tasks. For example, I have "I need help updating pyracerz to create a local config file." 12:56:20 <Baby> yup, tasks don't mean code 12:56:39 <bdefreese> Or "Fix dawn to not use fixed paths for data" 12:56:46 <bdefreese> :) 12:56:51 <Baby> and for example the tasks I need for debian kids, mostly of them don't involve code at all, it might be the same for tasks here 12:56:55 <bdefreese> mongrol: There is two ^^ ;-) 12:57:12 <ansgar> bdefreese: That's bugs.d.o stuff? :) 12:57:14 <mongrol> bugs or tracker 12:57:32 <apo> #info use an issue tracker or wiki page to coordinate tasks within the team 12:57:49 <mongrol> someone take an action to investigate the best fit? 12:58:04 <bdefreese> ansgar: dawn isn't in the repo yet so can't use bugs :( 12:58:36 <apo> mongrol: yeah, that would be great. Any volunteers for setting up a issue tracker or to investigate if this is useful for the team? 12:59:24 <apo> not all at once ^^ 12:59:41 <mongrol> I'll do it if noone else does 12:59:50 <mongrol> might not have rights though, will need to hassle admin 13:00:09 <Zhenech> what kind of rights do you want? :) 13:00:23 <Baby> something lightweight like mantis might do 13:00:27 <ansgar> bdefreese could enable Alioth's issue tracker :) 13:00:30 <Baby> doesn't need to be too big 13:00:55 <ansgar> Baby: I'm sure Alioth admins will be much happier if there's no custom stuff installed. :) 13:00:56 <mongrol> ok, leave it with me 13:01:01 <Baby> but maybe trying to work on tickets for coordination might work 13:01:13 <ansgar> Also, most issue trackers would need db access. 13:01:25 <apo> #action mongrol investigates if a issue tracker is useful for team, team DDs support him where necessary 13:01:35 <Baby> in any case, I'd prefer it to be easy, simple and lightweight 13:01:41 <Baby> no bugzilla please :P 13:01:46 <mongrol> doh! 13:01:56 <Zhenech> jira? :) 13:01:56 <apo> ok folks, what about moving to the next topic? 13:02:05 <Baby> jira would work 13:02:24 <debianer_> great idea 13:02:43 <Zhenech> Baby, nooooooooooooooooo 13:02:49 <Baby> :P 13:02:59 <ansgar> github :> 13:03:00 <apo> #topic Release goal for Jessie 13:03:36 <apo> A team release goal for Jessie would be nice. What should be our goal? 13:03:37 <Baby> one of my goals since a lot of time would be to move as much packages as possible to xdg base directory standard 13:03:56 <bdefreese> ++ 13:04:04 <debianer_> We need some great games (e.g. Xonotic, Speed Dreams) in Debian Jessie :) 13:04:05 * SynrG blinks 13:04:05 <Baby> which might not be an easy task to do for some games, but might be a valid goal for say 80% 13:04:17 <Baby> SynrG: hi! :) 13:04:20 <bdefreese> That's what I want to do with gravitywars and pyracerz 13:04:36 <SynrG> Baby: hi. kinda waiting for the blends topic :) 13:04:39 <bdefreese> But I don't know that I have the skills :( 13:04:52 <Baby> SynrG: we're finally taking over debian-jr :) 13:05:08 <Baby> bdefreese: I can help you with that 13:05:10 <SynrG> Baby: yay :) 13:05:19 <Baby> bdefreese: I already did that for many games 13:05:20 <ansgar> SynrG: Will it blend? 13:05:29 <SynrG> ahaha. well 13:05:36 <bdefreese> Baby: You haven't exactly been around until recently ;-P 13:05:47 <Baby> bdefreese: I know I haven't 13:06:02 <Baby> but I guess this is not the place nor the time to say my reasons :) 13:06:10 <bdefreese> I was gone for close to two years too :( 13:06:15 <Zhenech> mongrol, you should have tracker admin rights now 13:06:21 <apo> #info move as much packages as possible to xdg base directory standard 13:06:37 <mongrol> thyanks 13:06:44 <Baby> lets say that for some personal reasons I was quite demotivated for some time 13:07:09 <bdefreese> I hear ya 13:07:17 <apo> I'm in favour of choosing an easy, doable and concrete release goal, something like, adding desktop and menu files to every team maintained package, add screenshots to every game package and so on 13:07:28 <Baby> and debtags 13:07:31 <apo> ! 13:08:07 <bdefreese> apo: That is some good stuff for new members! 13:08:19 <apo> bdefreese: absolutely :) 13:08:28 <Baby> would translations fit in there too? 13:08:52 <apo> Baby: yes, that might be more complicated to realize though 13:09:09 <SynrG> since you mention debtags, and debian-jr at the same time, revive the OpenRatings idea? 13:09:17 <bdefreese> Aye, I only know very little Spanish and Bulgarian :) 13:09:23 <Baby> yup, I know, we've already done that with some games, like hex-a-hop for exampke 13:09:32 <Baby> SynrG: absolutely 13:09:35 <SynrG> https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRating 13:10:07 <Baby> just for the record, my latest vocabulary is available at http://miriamruiz.es/tags/ 13:10:17 <Calinou> about screenshots, I could help, I did a few already. 13:10:20 <Calinou> (minetest) 13:10:34 <mongrol> I'm fading, bedtime for me 13:10:41 <mongrol> cya folks 13:10:56 <apo> do we all agree that we should make this a release goal (adding screenshots, debtags, desktop and menu files to all packages) ? 13:10:59 <bdefreese> Gnight mongrol, thanks 13:11:04 <apo> bye mongrol 13:11:14 <bdefreese> apo: Sure. 13:11:42 <Baby> SynrG: though the OpenRating project, I've started to move it again inside debian-jr 13:11:55 <Rhonda> hmm, solveig not here anymore … 13:12:01 <apo> #agreed Release goal for Jessie 1: Add screenshots, debtags, desktop and menu files to all team maintained packages 13:12:57 * SynrG nods 13:13:15 <apo> does anybody know how we can easily find packages which have no desktop and menu files or do we have to dig through all of them manually? 13:13:47 <Baby> I don't know, but I can find out 13:13:58 <Baby> I did something similar years abou about fonts 13:14:11 <Rhonda> The manually digging through them can be automated if we have a list of binary package names. 13:14:14 <Sicness> maybe there is lintian db reports? 13:14:15 <apo> #action Miriam finds out how we can easily track packages without desktop and menu files 13:14:43 <bdefreese> Oh yeah, UDD may have lintian output also 13:14:55 <Sicness> I mean it's a lintial warning 13:14:56 <bdefreese> But I don't think lintian complains about no desktop file does it? 13:15:07 <Sicness> does AFAIK 13:15:09 <Baby> no, I don't think it does 13:15:12 <Baby> it does? 13:15:18 <Baby> never noticed it 13:15:23 <bdefreese> Aye, I think it is ionly if it is broken or missing tags 13:15:26 <Sicness> I can be wrong 13:15:53 <apo> I would like to use http://screenshots.debian.net/packages/games_without_screenshots for finding packages without screenshots? How can we omit packages which doesn't need screenshots like libraries or -dbg packages? 13:16:10 <Baby> when goneri was still in the team, I kind of remember he suggested adding our own lintian rules 13:16:19 <Baby> but I kind of have no clue about how that's done 13:16:38 <Zhenech> thats easy 13:17:05 <Baby> apo: maybe having some script analizing the dependencies? 13:17:21 <Baby> from the dependencies, it's easy to see if it's console or not 13:17:24 <Sicness> api, we can write easy script that will search menu files in git.debian.org and will report about packages without they 13:17:43 <Sicness> apo* ) 13:17:53 <apo> Sicness: are you interested in writing such a script? 13:18:07 <Sicness> I think so.. 13:18:14 <Sicness> I can ) 13:18:34 <apo> Sicness: that's great, just ask for help here or on the list, I think it would be great to have it 13:18:43 <Sicness> ok 13:19:43 <apo> #action Sicness writes a script to analyze which packages need screenshots or not 13:19:58 <Sicness> not screenshots. 13:20:07 <Sicness> menu files and desktop 13:20:08 <Baby> after thinking about that, I'm pretty sure that finding out the packages without menuy and/or desktop files is pretty easy 13:20:26 <apo> Sicness: oh sorry 13:20:56 <apo> #undo 13:20:56 <MeetBot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x103ad10> 13:21:33 <apo> #action Sicness writes a script to analyse which packages need desktop and menu files 13:22:49 <Baby> just download any ftp://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/sid/Contents-*.gz file and all the contents of every package is already there 13:22:50 <apo> more ideas for a release goal or how we can track the existing release goal? 13:24:15 <debianer_> we can create a wiki page which packages have no screenshots, desktop files ans menu files 13:24:36 <Baby> why wiki? 13:24:42 <Baby> I would prefer something automatic 13:25:14 * bdefreese likes PET a lot 13:25:20 <bdefreese> Could we integrate with that somehow? 13:26:43 <Baby> what's PET? 13:26:50 <Clint> "package entropy tracker" 13:26:57 <Baby> ow 13:27:00 <Baby> thanks :) 13:27:07 <Clint> looks like http://pkg-haskell.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/pet.cgi 13:27:08 <bdefreese> OMG.. :) 13:27:30 <debianer_> we also could create a bug for every missing file and check the status via udd 13:27:48 <bdefreese> Aye, that is probably better 13:28:01 <Baby> maybe we could start using http://blends.alioth.debian.org/games/tasks/ 13:28:10 <Baby> and integrate it there 13:28:16 <ansgar> It's http://pet.debian.net/pkg-games/pet.cgi 13:28:43 <ansgar> (which also has packages in Git) 13:28:50 <Baby> I'm sure Andreas Tille would help us 13:29:12 <apo> any volunteers who would like to investigate this issue a little more and report back how we can use it for the release goal? 13:29:31 <bdefreese> Why does everyone keep bringing up Andreas? Where does he fit in? 13:29:54 <Baby> bdefreese: here: http://blends.alioth.debian.org/games/tasks/ 13:30:05 <apo> bdefreese: he is very active in the Blends project, that's topic number 3 :) 13:30:17 <bdefreese> Ahhh 13:30:27 <ansgar> Because he wants to push Blends everywhere (or so it seems). 13:30:46 <bdefreese> Sorry I just don't quite understand the point of blends 13:30:51 <Baby> well, it seems to work 13:30:51 <ansgar> He mentioned it in every talk where I heard him. Or quite close to it ;) 13:30:56 <Baby> so it's okay for me 13:31:08 <ansgar> "seems to work" meaning? 13:31:08 <Sicness> I suggest to add a new check to lintian: if there is a /usr/games/<bin> then check is there a desktop and menu file. I suggest to file the bug to lintian about that. 13:31:50 <apo> #info we need to investigate how we can track our release goal for jessie (PET, wiki etc.), no volunteers yet 13:32:13 <Rhonda> apo: Hmm, that there are -dbg packages listed there seems a bit wrong, because they are in Section: debug and not Section: games? 13:32:16 <Rhonda> (sorry for late response) 13:32:17 <apo> #idea add a new lintian check for our release goal 13:32:53 <Rhonda> So I rather would consider screenshots.d.n to get fixed to not list packages that aren't in Section: games. 13:33:03 <apo> Rhonda: yes, you're right. I always wondered if we could trim the list a little 13:33:41 <apo> or we could link existing screenshots simply to -dbg packages? 13:34:13 <apo> I mean we could use the openarena screenshot and simply link it to the dbg package for example 13:34:20 <Baby> Rhonda: at least it should skip the packages in debug 13:35:22 <apo> ok, I see that needs further investigation, let's move to topic 3 13:35:40 <apo> #topic Debian Games Pure Blend 13:36:09 <apo> #link http://blends.alioth.debian.org/games/tasks/simulation Games Blend main page 13:37:06 <Baby> I'd say the main page is http://blends.alioth.debian.org/games/tasks/ 13:37:12 <apo> I'm working on a Blend page for the games team, basically I add all games to some text files and the appear on this site 13:37:15 <Baby> that one you put is just simulation games 13:37:33 <apo> I would like to promote games and this project seems like the way to achieve it 13:37:46 <apo> Baby: yeah, sorry 13:38:11 <Baby> np :) 13:38:36 <Baby> yup I think that working together with the blends team would help 13:38:37 <apo> my question is what do you think about promoting all games in Debian via the Blends project, what should be implemented? 13:39:25 <Baby> not much really 13:39:32 <Baby> just keeping the config files up to date 13:40:05 <apo> My goal is to automate this process, there is a GSoC project ongoing and I hope it will help to achieve this goal 13:40:18 <Baby> cool 13:42:00 <Baby> one thing that was mentioned this morning 13:42:14 <apo> as a side note: I heavily rely on debtags, so please debtag all your packages, that helps a lot in categorizing games :) 13:42:58 * SynrG blinks again 13:43:05 <SynrG> ah, finally, The Topic 13:43:05 <Baby> it seems that there's gonna be a mini debconf in cambridge in a few months.... those of us who are in europe might wanna meet there to do some coordination and stuf 13:43:35 <Baby> sorry I forgot to mention it, I just remembered 13:44:35 <Baby> tags are indeed important 13:44:44 <Baby> I rely on them for openrating too 13:44:59 <Baby> even though we have been discussing whether an extension to desktop files might be better 13:45:27 <SynrG> before we get into implementation too heavily, i would like to stress that i think the most important aspect of a blend is "Debian as used by your target audience", i.e. defining who your users are and explicitly setting yourselves up to address that community. all the rest is just a small matter of code 13:45:42 * Baby nods 13:45:50 <apo> On a side note: if we properly maintain this blend project we can quite easily create live usb images which depend on meta packages for games, is anyone interested in helping to create such a "Live CD/USB version" (besides SynrG) :) 13:46:48 <Rhonda> Is there actually enough common base for our target audience? I mean, different people enjoy different type of games, obviously. 13:46:51 <Baby> there is interest on thatm, and might be achieavable at some point, but I don't think the blends are capable of that yet 13:46:56 <SynrG> and since you mention me in that capacity, i have always said i am here to help with the live technology and not particularly interested in making the package selections / tweaks to game configurations for the live image. that would be the job of whoever steps up to the plate to help. 13:46:57 <ansgar> apo: Don't you just need a flat list of packages for that? 13:47:11 <ansgar> apo: I mean, there's no point for meta-packages to get stuff into live images. 13:47:44 <SynrG> why is there no point for meta-packages? that is *the* recommended way of doing package lists for live-build 13:47:54 <Rhonda> That's what I meant. I don't think that we could find a common base of games to make a meta package useful, is there? 13:48:01 <apo> ansgar: I categorize all games into different sections and one benefit of Blends is we get meta packages for free with this approach 13:48:09 <SynrG> that way you can have the live image match what a user can also have by just "apt-get install task-whatever" 13:49:16 <SynrG> debian-jr tried to solve the "can't find a common base" issue by modularizing package lists. decide who your sub-audiences are and have tasks focused per subgroup. this isn't expected to put *all* games in their hands, just a sufficient set of them to make them happy to get started. 13:49:48 <Baby> yup 13:50:45 <debianer_> Do you mean something like SparkyLinux which include a lot of free games (debian based)? http://sparkylinux.org/ 13:50:53 <SynrG> back to my earlier comment: decide who you're catering to :) 13:51:07 <SynrG> (and that needn't be just *one* group) 13:53:39 <Baby> yup, it certainly won't be just one group 13:53:53 <apo> Do you need more information what Blends really is or shall I assume that nobody besides SynrG is really interested in the topic and we call it quits for today ? :) 13:54:12 <Baby> I have enough information for the moment :) 13:54:54 <SynrG> did we identify clear action items and who is doing them? 13:55:39 <apo> #action apo works on the Debian Blends Pure Blend and reports back to the mailing list 13:56:17 <apo> #action SynrG provides assistance for all Blend and live image related questions 13:56:21 <apo> ok? :) 13:56:43 <Baby> :) 13:56:55 <apo> #topic Next meeting 13:57:21 <SynrG> apo: sounds good :) 13:58:01 <apo> I volunteer for organizing the next meeting. When shall we meet again. I suggest 2 meetings per year should be usually enough, we can use the list and this channel for further discussions 13:58:26 <apo> so next meeting in February 2014? 13:58:39 <Baby> we could try that 13:59:01 <Baby> it wouldn't be hard to put an intermediate meeting before if we feel we need it 13:59:11 <Baby> maybe 4 a year could also be an option 13:59:14 <apo> Baby: *nods* 13:59:35 <Baby> but well, we'll see, it's easy to set up one if we decide 14:00:15 <bdefreese> Aye, quarterly would probably be nice 14:00:37 <Calinou> 4 a year, yes 14:00:44 <Calinou> or maybe 3 :P 14:02:51 <apo> ok, just ping me if you I should organize a meeting at the end of the year, otherwise I assume February 2014 will do 14:03:06 <apo> #endmeeting