18:01:59 #startmeeting 18:01:59 Meeting started Thu May 20 18:01:59 2010 UTC. The chair is dba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:01:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:02:33 Hello everyone.. this is the general assembly of debian.ch for 2010. 18:02:52 * madduck waves ;) 18:02:53 please everyone state for the protocol their names 18:02:58 * dba is Daniel Baumann 18:03:01 * gismo is Luca Capello 18:03:02 martin krafft 18:03:07 * OdyX is Didier Raboud 18:03:12 * iustin is Iustin Pop 18:03:38 before we start with the program of today, i've got two things to say before hand. 18:03:49 first, the program is here: 18:03:50 http://people.debian.org/~daniel/debian.ch/traktanden.txt 18:04:27 second, i'm sorry i've been busy the last few days more than i've anticipated, 18:04:45 so i could not complete everything i wanted to (that is, the english bylaw translation). 18:05:20 having that said.. let's start with the first point. 18:05:34 madduck: please give us the final financial report for 2009 18:05:41 dba: use #topic ;) 18:05:48 #topic financial report 18:05:49 #topic final financial report for 2009 18:06:07 everyone fire up vim http://stuff.madduck.net/scratch/debian__debian.ch__kasse__20091231-accounts-2009 18:06:10 ;) 18:06:16 since the browser cannot interpret vim modelines 18:06:18 re 18:06:32 anyway, the year ended with a balance of CHF 5844.88 18:06:35 (all numbers in CHF) 18:06:36 * XTaran is Axel Beckert. 18:06:50 we had 760 of donations 18:06:59 three of them worthy of being listed on the website 18:07:16 most of the profit of 3215.11 was made with merchandise sale 18:07:20 * madduck high-fives gismo 18:07:32 the details are at the top link 18:07:39 * gismo says hooora! 18:07:43 :) 18:08:02 vim http://stuff.madduck.net/scratch/debian__debian.ch__kasse__20100520-accounts-ytd is 2010 thus far 18:08:09 with a profit of 635.09 18:08:16 yay 18:08:19 our balance as of today is 6479.97 18:08:42 and if gismo gives me updated numbers on the stock we still have, then i can calculate our equity, which i estimate to be around 8400 CHF 18:08:53 madduck: coming in a minute 18:09:00 equity being "monetary value + merchandise value" ? 18:09:07 madduck: now that I read the report, what about the travel fees for AGM 2009? Or OpenExpo? 18:09:12 OdyX: equity being the right side of the balance sheet. ;) 18:09:25 gismo: i have not received anyone's claims for either, so there wasn't any expense 18:09:36 madduck: OK, I will send an email ;-) 18:09:47 gismo: it'll be an expense for 2010 then 18:09:56 madduck: OK, thanks 18:10:08 the stock I have in GE is: 18:10:22 Debian swirl stickers 54S/39M/25L 18:10:34 Debian kFreeBSD swirl stickers 0S/14M/5L 18:10:49 Debian Women swirl stickers 17S/9M/9L 18:11:01 Debian word white stickers 81S/32M/28L 18:11:12 Debian word black stickers 79S/23M/18L 18:11:28 `apt-get install anarchism` T-Shirts 0S/3M/7L/3XL/10XXL 18:11:43 debian.ch classic T-Shirts 17S/25M/17L/15XL 18:11:55 debian.ch fusion T-Shirts 3S/12M/0L/6XL 18:12:06 madduck: you should have some debian.ch T-Shirts at home IIRC 18:12:21 i do. i did not count them though 18:12:29 i will and then prepare a balance sheet 18:12:38 since our new auditor luk has requested it anyway 18:12:45 i shall let the mailing list know. 18:12:56 now someone better request my discharge for 2009 or else i will carry on. 18:13:00 madduck: if you have not sold any, I have your last count: 26 classic and 8 fusion 18:13:08 madduck: the report is fine for me 18:13:11 gismo: i have not sold any. 18:13:44 madduck: OK, so we have 100 classic and 29 fusion 18:14:15 gismo: i will send you the exact counts with sizes and stuff later tonight. 18:14:17 let's do it the irc way then: anyone who does not raise hands now is okay with my discharge. i withhold my vote, obviously. 18:14:30 lol 18:14:31 dba: i think you can probably move on. 18:14:34 ok 18:14:37 oh wait 18:14:50 in december we fixed exchange rate to 1,50 18:14:57 that's the next point 18:14:59 i herewith request it to be updated to 1,45 18:15:02 ok 18:15:05 sorry. 18:15:12 so we're done with financial report? 18:15:13 * OdyX launches the "everybody-applauses-as-consent" move. 18:15:14 yes 18:15:14 #topic update euro exchange rate 18:15:20 in december we fixed exchange rate to 1,50 18:15:23 i herewith request it to be updated to 1,45 18:15:26 madduck: fine for me 18:15:30 fine for me 18:15:47 #agreed € exchange rate is now 1,45 until further notice. 18:16:15 .oO(do i need to write that command?) 18:16:16 dba: we did not #agreed before 18:16:25 gismo: just seen, yes. 18:16:25 dba: I guess so ;-) 18:16:28 gismo: we can do it now. 18:16:29 ok.. 18:16:34 #agreed financials 2009 are ok 18:16:40 #agreed final financials 2009 are ok 18:16:49 #action madduck prepares balance sheet with updated stock for luk and sends to mailing list 18:16:52 madduck: ah OK, I am a meetbot newbie 18:16:57 gismo: same. ;) 18:17:00 dito 18:17:16 #agreed € exchange rate is now 1,45 until further notice 18:17:29 next point.. 18:17:32 dba: i think everyone can use agreed/info/action 18:17:39 we'll see 18:17:41 #topic Changing the legal seat from Zurich to Bern 18:17:53 madduck: #agreed only admins http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 18:18:06 i propose to move the *legal* seat of debian.ch from zurich to bern. 18:18:15 remember: the *legal* seat has nothing to do with any post address, 18:18:27 dba: so this is just *iff* we were drawn to court? 18:18:34 it has only two meanings for law: 1. this is where the association would pay taxes, 18:18:35 From what I understood it doesn't change anything but the good to be seated in Bern for politics. 18:18:51 OdyX: the PostFinance account is in Bern as well, IIRC 18:18:52 2. the place where the association would need to be sued 18:19:11 it requires a change of bylaws, right? 18:20:16 anyway, fine by me. 18:20:23 * madduck pushes the meeting onwards 18:20:38 for the records: http://lists.debian.ch/community@lists.debian.ch/2010/msg00069.html 18:20:44 ack for me too. 18:20:48 dba: either change existing bylaws, or this will be done as part of the rewrite, see next point. 18:21:07 gismo, XTaran: votes? 18:21:08 dba: fine for me 18:21:18 ok. next point 18:21:23 dba: #agreed ;-) 18:21:24 use #agreed 18:21:29 #agreed changing legal seat to bern 18:21:30 moment 18:21:34 and your action itme. ;) 18:21:49 #action update seat in bylaws 18:21:58 XTaran: yes? 18:22:23 #action dba updates existing bylaws with new legal seat 18:22:34 madduck: i have problems identifying the exact question 18:22:43 18:17:37 < dba> i propose to move the *legal* seat of debian.ch from zurich to bern. 18:23:03 XTaran: choose one of either 'yes', 'no', 'abstain'. 18:23:12 XTaran: afaiui, there's a mail address and a legal seat 18:23:18 the legal seat is only for taxes and court stuff 18:23:25 #abstain 18:23:26 the post address remains with avbidder for now 18:23:30 ok. 18:23:35 next point 18:23:40 dba: thx 18:23:45 #topic updating bylaws to current state of the art 18:24:08 i've made a proposed new version of the bylaws, they can be found here: 18:24:14 http://people.debian.org/~daniel/debian.ch/statuten/statuten.html 18:24:33 dba: could we have a diff ? 18:24:46 yeah, diff would be good 18:24:47 it's signature is (posting here, that's required to make the decision process valid later; i'll explain at the end) 18:24:50 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 18:24:53 Hash: SHA1 18:24:56 a7b43d1fba2ef10ddf035e0e55f2dc086d7534e3f64477991c61a09f2bff9d90 statuten.html 18:24:58 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- 18:25:01 Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) 18:25:04 iEYEARECAAYFAkv1d/0ACgkQ+C5cwEsrK56D4QCeNXc7QNqBWHSYspUOg7a6nW+0 18:25:06 m0YAoNdtGYPz+CMfoXT1TxcRC6xZmbfI 18:25:09 =6Squ 18:25:11 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- 18:25:14 18:25:16 sure.. just be patient.. i'm not so fast in typing. 18:25:45 i'd like to briefly go through the sections (I. till V.) 18:26:06 * OdyX goes preparing the fondue for after the AGM in the meantime. :-> 18:26:10 dba: please, I do not speak German and I do not trust any online translator in this case... 18:26:13 Art 1-3 are verbatim pretty much 18:26:18 section I: apart from the legal seat that we agreed upon before, nothing changed here content wise, 18:26:37 it's just differntly worded to be more precise. 18:27:25 section II: avoided confusing wording with 'Aktiven' in art. 2, otherwise identical. 18:27:44 * madduck acks 18:27:47 section III: many things changed, i'll explain. 18:27:56 dba: typo: jederman ->jedermann 18:28:07 jediman 18:28:25 dba: I think Aktiven is very confusing 18:28:43 Art. 5 Abs. 1: "Everyone can become a member." 18:28:53 XTaran: Standardbegriff aus der Bilanzierung 18:29:06 i think, as a principle, this should be pointed out. we should welcome everyone that would like to join. 18:29:13 dba: i do not understand Art. 3.2 18:29:29 hmm.. ok.. going back to Art. 3. 18:29:34 the old version: 18:29:48 madduck: but what is the meaninh? 18:29:53 XTaran: Aktiven sind Mittel und Gegenstände, also Liquidität und Anlagen/Vorräte sowie Beteiligungen etc. 18:29:53 Der Verein hält im Namen des Debian Projekts Aktiven in der Schweiz und im Fürstentum Liechten- 18:29:56 stein. 18:30:19 madduck: Ok. 18:30:30 XTaran: Aktiva is how the money is allocated, Passiva is where it comes from. 18:30:35 dba: new version is better 18:30:42 XTaran: ok. 18:30:43 back to Art 5 18:30:58 ftr: you only need to tell when you disagree, we'll vote on it in the end. 18:31:05 dba: I would swap 3 and 4, since the AGM does not decide over membership of DDs (and DMs) 18:31:23 i would reword 3 too 18:31:27 "werden auf Anfrage aufgenommen" 18:31:38 madduck: didn't we somehow request that the people wanting to become members should show up at the AGM ? 18:31:51 OdyX: not yet voted (next in the agenda) 18:31:52 OdyX: to be discussed later 18:31:55 hrm… re-reading, that is orthogonal. 18:31:57 OdyX: that's for later 18:32:18 ok.. i'll try it again.. 18:32:25 the intention of Art. 5 is this: 18:32:32 by principle, everyone is welcome to join. 18:33:02 existing members can suggest new members 18:33:14 dds (and dms) can 'suggest' themselfs 18:33:17 dba: s/Personen/natürliche &/ ? 18:33:44 madduck: i intentionally didn't 18:33:58 about all suggestsions, the AGM decides. 18:34:11 dba: i disagree about the last point (not the natural persons thing) 18:34:14 this is what we had already, but imho better worded, and with a clear principle, that everyone is welcome. 18:34:25 (assuming the AGM acks their wish) 18:34:36 we had it the other way around wrt DDs 18:34:53 ...except for the DD-thing. 18:34:57 i think register debian project members just need to request membership and immediately become members 18:35:04 all others need to be ack'd 18:35:05 i remember that we discussed it about automatic membership for dds 18:35:20 not automatic, but on request, no? 18:35:41 automatic as in 'i request and by that request, i'm constituting myself as a member'. 18:35:52 sorry to rise up again, but wasn't it "of course DD can be members, but we want them at the AGM therefor" ? 18:36:01 dba: anyway, that's to be discussed later 18:36:02 madduck: not by an act of the agm. that's my point. 18:36:03 OdyX: to be discussed later -) 18:36:12 ok. anyhow.. that was my intention. 18:36:19 dba: i just think 3 and 4 need to be swapped 18:36:23 dba: it is already like this 18:36:29 and 3 slightly reworded to reflect 18:36:40 4 after the swap 18:36:41 dba: Gaudenz became a member as soon as he requested it (at DebConf9) 18:36:46 exactly 18:36:49 gismo: that's what i said 18:37:20 with current bylaws, the membership for dds is automatic (in the sense that i've explained above) 18:37:32 dba: i think it'll be best if you incorporate such suggested changes, and all new stuff after this meetin, and then we can vote on the new bylaws with our digital signatures 18:37:57 it makes little sense now to keep discussing this, because i think we all agree 18:38:03 let's go on with the rest.. we can vote/change/whatever afterwards 18:38:38 about donnors.. the changes in Art.7 are that donnors are explicitly not members and thus have no vote to right. 18:38:50 right to vote. ;) 18:38:55 art. 8 states that members can leave at any time 18:39:23 art. 9 is what madduck talked about last agm (expulse members by the AGM) 18:39:33 WITHOUT REASON! HAR HAR 18:39:42 O_o 18:39:57 XTaran: it was discussed at length and is basically a can of worms otherwise. 18:40:04 see the minutes from the last meeting. 18:40:09 jup 18:40:40 definitely, we need that point in the bylaws 18:40:45 the rest is just the same 18:40:46 madduck: That was about the "HAR HAR". :-) 18:40:49 that's a way for the association to protect itself from its members… 18:40:54 XTaran: ;) 18:41:09 dba: Art 10 is duplicated 18:41:11 so... who needs which points to be changed before we can vote? 18:41:16 sorry for the stupid question, but won't "automatic expulsion + automatic join by DD on request" create a loop" 18:41:44 iustin: I guess in this case a re-joining must be voted by the AGM 18:41:58 dba: art 10a talks about invitiation, we only want to invite using the mailing list, so maybe we need to state somewhere that members are expected to read the list? or create an announce list? 18:42:15 dba: automatic, unless previously expelled. 18:42:29 or automatic the first time only. ;) 18:42:45 madduck: well, community@ is not so big traffic, so I would say that a second mailing list would be useless 18:42:52 please check http://people.debian.org/~daniel/debian.ch/statuten2/statuten.html for the one we will vote upon 18:42:55 gismo: agreed. 18:43:04 madduck: art 10 numbering fixed 18:43:08 gismo: seconded 18:43:09 XTaran: jedermann typo fixed 18:43:26 dba: art 5 3/4 unfixed. 18:43:27 wrt to the mailing list; sending an explicit e-mail to the members seems sensible to me. 18:43:34 s/gismo/madduck/ 18:43:46 dba: thx 18:43:57 OdyX: you mean sending To: gismo@ + Cc: community@? 18:44:17 madduck: done 18:44:26 gismo: yes; but "invitation sent by email" is sensible enough for me. The secretary rules with common sense afterwards. 18:44:59 OdyX: I think community@ must be a recipient, after all is the only way to be sure it is archived somewhere... 18:45:08 OdyX: but I agree for the common sense 18:45:17 how about this: 18:45:24 dba: rephrase 4 to "Registrierte Debian Entwickler werden auf Anfrage als Mitglieder aufgenommen, insofern diese nicht vorher ausgeschlossen worden sind" ? 18:45:40 gismo: it's basically a "wish to the actuary" :-> 18:45:41 madduck: seconded 18:46:05 '... 2 weeks in advance through e-mail and to the associations mailinglist.' 18:46:08 madduck: ack 18:46:21 "community mailing list" 18:46:28 madduck: ACK 18:46:31 dba: "email" is enough IMHO; we just have to make sure the members are aware. 18:46:34 s/through/by personal/ 18:46:39 madduck: (your correction, not #4) 18:46:59 madduck: 'durch E-Mail' means already personal email 18:47:04 I don't insist on it but otherwise ACK to madduck's 18:47:19 however, we can make it more clearly: 18:47:19 ah right, we are writing german. ;) 18:47:34 dba: still, on 5/4 -- why "können aufgenommen werden" instead of "werden aufgenommen"? 18:47:49 (poor dba) 18:48:12 . 18:48:37 fast… nun noch das verb verschieben. ;) 18:49:00 (forgot to :w) 18:49:43 oh i missed it 18:50:13 dba: so about the email thing: we'll leave it as an implicit understanding that the actuary sends an email to everyone cc the list? 18:50:46 dba: that's something for the to-be-written-docs about the duties and best practices of the actuary/treasurer/president… 18:50:49 madduck: from the legal interpretation, it's already clear that it must be a personal mail. 18:50:56 dba: ok 18:51:08 however, i don't mind spelling it out if you like that 18:51:15 * iustin wonders why not just the list; I mean, if someone is a member, I suppose reading the list is not to much to ask 18:51:18 unrelated to that; what about the mailinglist thing, you want it? 18:51:28 #action dba adds best practice for invitations to to-be-written docs about Being A Good Actuary 18:51:45 madduck: s/adds/updates his/ 18:51:46 can someone please put a nicer css for debian.ch, it's very ugly, unfortunately i can't find my proposals anymore 18:51:47 iustin: apparently the legal perspective 18:52:02 tarzeau: please wait for misc at the end. 18:52:03 #action madduck writes best practices for treasurer 18:52:14 #action gismo writes best practices for El Presidente 18:52:37 madduck: you mean, best practices from an Italian POV? I guess you would not like that :-) 18:52:42 hehe 18:52:51 * madduck reads 11–15 18:53:08 dba: s/erfüt/erfüllt/ 18:53:34 madduck: just to make sure: do you want me to a) add explicit 'personal' mail thing, b) the mailinglist, c) both. 18:53:38 d) none 18:53:41 dba: about art 9 — does the law mandate the type of majority required? 18:53:49 dba: (d) 18:54:00 ok, we're relocating to the restaurant 18:54:01 ok 18:54:10 XTaran: ? 18:54:20 gismo: XTaran is double-timing 18:54:25 with lugs.ch 18:54:32 madduck: ah, thanks 18:54:43 dba: how to proceed? 18:54:45 gismo:i'm at a lug meeting 18:54:52 * gismo is at a University party and people downstairs are eating... 18:55:01 gismo: :( 18:55:04 let's hurry up! 18:55:09 has anyone any outstanding questions/$whatever with 18:55:12 http://people.debian.org/~daniel/debian.ch/statuten2/statuten.html 18:55:13 madduck: yes! 18:55:40 if not, please everyone say a 'i'm fine with the changes' or something like that. 18:56:19 dba: FWIW, I am fine for the English discussion, then the real words (in German) are out of my understanding 18:56:27 dba: i am fine with 8be14b3b13ce9a64a9a844c10a6cfa877c3fadae statuten.html, but i suggest that we don't finalise it right now 18:56:36 madduck: about art 9 and the majority: yes, normal majority (50%+1) is enough 18:56:41 dba: ok 18:57:21 not finalizing as in? 18:57:54 * OdyX acks. 18:58:01 dba: finalise it after the meeting, then send it around and collect GPG sigs 18:58:05 that's what we have been doing. 18:58:13 ah, ok 18:58:16 good.. 18:58:26 ok for me 18:58:37 ACK 18:58:38 since there will be changes about to be discussed 18:58:38 #agreed sending finalized bylaws arround for acks later on 18:58:55 #topic english translations 18:58:56 #action dba sends finalised bylaws later and collects sigs 18:59:08 english translation is postponed until german ones are finalized 18:59:13 obviously 18:59:18 ck 18:59:25 ack 18:59:26 #agreed english translations postponed 18:59:31 i propose we pay a professional translator 18:59:41 seconded 18:59:42 to english 18:59:43 too expensive 18:59:46 dba: doubtful 19:00:03 madduck: professional means lawyer here 19:00:04 #action madduck gets a quote for a professional, legal translation 19:00:07 i like google translate 19:00:19 dba: yeah, and my lawyer might even do it for free. ;) 19:00:28 ok 19:00:30 anyway, moving on 19:00:32 tarzeau: *patsch* 19:00:37 #topic revise membership 19:00:45 XTaran: it can even spell a few languages :) 19:00:46 * gismo_ is Luca Capello 19:00:52 madduck: your turn 19:01:11 okay, there are a few points here, let me augment the agenda 19:01:21 1. "automatic" membership and what we mean by it 19:01:28 2. showing up at the AGM 19:01:32 3. DMs 19:01:39 4. membership fees 19:02:26 madduck: OK, automatic is my meaning as above (and as before) 19:02:26 for (1), i wanted to propose that all DDs (and DMs) who have a permit to live in switzerland to become members 19:02:39 but i agree, that's not really manageable 19:02:50 but now i wonder about the bylaws 19:02:58 can *every* DD/DM become a member? 19:03:03 or must they live in .ch? 19:03:09 or .li 19:03:12 yeah 19:03:17 i think that was the point, wasn't it? 19:03:22 I'd say they must live… 19:03:29 madduck: do Schengen people still need a permit to stay in .ch? 19:03:32 and i suggest that only DDs/DMs living in .ch/.li can "automatically" join. 19:03:36 gismo_: yes 19:03:53 madduck: then ACK on your suggestion 19:03:54 OdyX: live as in have a permit from the Migrationsamt, right? 19:04:15 so only DDs/DMs with a permit to live in .ch/.li can become members right away 19:04:21 all others have to be voted on, right? 19:04:34 madduck: yes 19:04:35 why so complicated? 19:04:36 madduck: live as in "I don't care about legalese, as long as they are in .ch or .li" 19:04:46 dba: how else? 19:04:47 what about swiss citizen not living in switzerland? 19:04:59 XTaran: they have a permit… 19:05:08 madduck: i'm wondering what you're afraid of; 19:05:08 XTaran: they do no need a permit to live in .ch? 19:05:17 XTaran: s/no/not/ 19:05:26 madduck: if automatic membership, why restrict it to people in .ch/.li? 19:05:33 dba: that michelle konzack applies 19:05:44 i thought you suggesting to replace the permit by "live in'. 19:05:45 we can still reject her 19:05:50 oops, this is logged, isn't it? ;) 19:05:57 dba: no, we cannot, if s/he is a DD/DM 19:05:57 0wnd 19:05:58 LOL 19:06:15 we have to expell later, which might suck 19:06:23 true; not reject, but expulse. 19:06:33 not ideal. 19:06:48 move on please 19:06:56 so i suggest Art 5. (4) of the new bylaws applies only to people with legal residence in .ch/.li 19:07:07 * gismo is Luca Capello 19:07:08 votes against? 19:07:17 madduck: staendiger Wohnsitz? 19:07:24 madduck: or what would it be in german? 19:07:38 a legal residence is also if someone travels to switzerland and stays for half a year? 19:08:03 tarzeau: IIRC after 3 months you need a permit, at least this should be the case in .eu 19:08:09 tarzeau: staendiger wohnsitz is if you register yourself at the citizen-office 19:08:22 gismo: au-pair people get a permit for longer than 3 months, what about those? 19:08:23 how about i find out the right wording with dba and we just agree on the general idea? 19:08:38 i don't think they register in any citizen-office, they just extend the staying-permit 19:08:39 i.e. you need to live in .ch/.li or be swiss/lichtensteinian to become an automatic member 19:08:40 madduck: ACK 19:08:47 madduck: ack 19:08:56 madduck: ack 19:09:03 ACK 19:09:04 #agreed Art 5. (4) of the new bylaws applies only to people who live in .ch/.li or are swiss/lichtensteinian 19:09:13 #action madduck, dba figure out the right wording to use 19:09:19