14:00:08 <russdeffner> #startmeeting Activation Working Group August 3, 2018
14:00:08 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Aug  3 14:00:08 2018 UTC.  The chair is russdeffner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:08 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:29 <russdeffner> #topic Unfinished Business
14:00:51 <russdeffner> Greetings all, say hello so me and the bot know you are here
14:01:03 <russdeffner> Agenda, notes, etc. are on the trello...
14:01:07 <russdeffner> #link https://trello.com/b/ogU4Wjd6/hot-activation-wg
14:01:20 <BlakeGirardot> Hi russ, hi MeetBot
14:01:27 <hot_slack_bot> <pjstewart1984> Hi Russ. Paul Stewart here.
14:01:31 <hot_slack_bot> <hebolz> Hi all
14:01:59 <Alek> lurking
14:02:16 <russdeffner> You can find the previous meeting notes here...
14:02:19 <russdeffner> #link https://trello.com/c/aG8SlkdK/22-previous-meeting-summaries
14:02:22 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> Hi all, my apologies got stuck with stuff
14:02:41 <russdeffner> and the unfinished business card here...
14:02:43 <russdeffner> #link https://trello.com/c/b2h8Is4D/30-unfinished-business
14:04:01 <russdeffner> Hi all, Philipp - was there a gdoc created for imagery? refering to that first agenda item last meeting
14:05:06 <russdeffner> or if anyone else was following up on that item?
14:05:18 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> I don't think so, no
14:06:31 <russdeffner> Ok, my memory of last meeting was overwritten by SotM :)
14:06:42 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> ha, so was mine
14:07:21 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> what info do we need for the gdoc on imagery and where/who from?
14:07:27 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> Hello all
14:07:34 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> Hi Ralph!
14:07:38 <hot_slack_bot> <pjstewart1984> Hi Ralph
14:08:02 <russdeffner> Was just going to say, I think Ralph and Blake were maybe working on this? Welcome Ralph
14:08:43 <BlakeGirardot> I got a little further on how to process the DG imagery for OAM
14:09:54 <BlakeGirardot> so that is still in process
14:10:03 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> Hi all (with unstable connection)
14:10:13 <russdeffner> Ok, so for the short term - I think this was to create basic 'how to' with the default imagery (i.e. if/where metadata)
14:10:25 <russdeffner> Hi Satoshi
14:10:26 <BlakeGirardot> oh, current available imagery
14:10:47 <BlakeGirardot> "use dg standard" ok, thats done, next :)
14:11:17 <russdeffner> but what if there's...? :(
14:11:41 <BlakeGirardot> I can write something up
14:12:01 <russdeffner> Ok, thanks Blake!
14:12:06 <BlakeGirardot> The training working group, last I heard was do your very best to come up with one imagery layer to ask folks to work with.
14:12:36 <BlakeGirardot> But as I said, I can write up a document. I thought one was started somewhere.
14:13:05 <russdeffner> #Action Draft 'what to know' document on default imagery - Blake & ?/all
14:13:29 <russdeffner> we also talked about the imagery request process a bit
14:14:51 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> We were working on the project check list Blake
14:14:53 <Alek> I am for "single" imagery "only". Simplicity rules.
14:15:13 <russdeffner> not sure we want to get back into that today, and there's a card for it so we won't forget - unless anyone has news on this?
14:15:26 <russdeffner> * refering to imagery requests^
14:15:58 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> I think the idea was that single imagery was offered and validators would check that against any newer (poorer) imagery rather than the new mappers doing it.
14:18:17 <russdeffner> Ok, let's keep moving
14:18:40 <russdeffner> disaster mapping capacity we will come back to
14:18:52 <russdeffner> so the last unfinished business is 'large AOIs'
14:19:47 <russdeffner> which again, I don't really recall why it's 'unfinished'
14:20:08 <BlakeGirardot> (+1 ralph)
14:20:24 <russdeffner> were we going to do something to 'prevent' PMs from making too large projects?
14:20:28 <Alek> large AOIs are technically and psychologically to avoid at all
14:20:38 <russdeffner> or draft some guidelines/notes or something?
14:21:26 <BlakeGirardot> guidelines, notes, best practices. I do not think we want to or can easily do anything programatically to fix that.
14:21:43 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> I think I remember
14:22:30 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> it was because we wanted to get back to the PMs of projects with large AOIs and ask if they need the entire area to mapped
14:22:42 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> I think Blake followed that one up
14:22:53 <russdeffner> oh, this was specific to Sri Lanka?
14:23:06 <Alek> you could do it programmtically easily with a coordinates spread check
14:23:08 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> yes, I think there was another one
14:23:11 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> as well
14:23:21 <russdeffner> Ok, yes - this has been 'resolved' then
14:23:34 <russdeffner> projects are now ~20% smaller
14:23:38 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> I believe someone was wanting to create 5 projects for groups of 200 mappers which would be need a large AOI to get enough squares for each group.
14:24:31 <BlakeGirardot> Oh i see yes, I remember that issue
14:24:44 <BlakeGirardot> what to do with unrealistically large aoi requests?
14:25:12 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> That was raised at the Training WG on the 23rd
14:25:20 <BlakeGirardot> unitar/copernicus just turn them back and say "something in the 1500 total sq/km range please"
14:26:02 <russdeffner> ah, yes - specific to disaster; I think we could come up with some estimations/maximums
14:26:51 <BlakeGirardot> I mean russ did an excellent job with sri lanka telling them it was going to be months to complete
14:27:05 <BlakeGirardot> but they kind of went silent so we carried on as best we could.
14:27:19 <BlakeGirardot> they did follow back up with us and so russ adjusted the remaining projects.
14:28:26 <BlakeGirardot> (recently follow up with us after we wrote them again two weeks or so ago)
14:28:41 <russdeffner> yes, but we are definitely seeing attrition on those and probably going to be less and less validated as we go along
14:29:02 <russdeffner> so there may be a 'max' time for any one incident
14:29:20 <BlakeGirardot> yes, totally and it kind of wears out volunteers
14:29:42 <BlakeGirardot> which affects other mapping as well is my feeling (no hard evidence)
14:29:53 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> good point...
14:30:13 <russdeffner> Ok, so I guess we do need a follow-up on this but maybe a longer term thing and should have a card instead
14:30:49 <russdeffner> it seems more of a thing to work into the protocol/size-up
14:31:07 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> would this maybe something that could be as part of the project creation work flow
14:31:29 <BlakeGirardot> I think it is before project creation
14:31:39 <russdeffner> +1 Blake
14:31:50 <BlakeGirardot> more in the size up as russ said. I mean it can be after that too because requests come in after that
14:31:51 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> :+1:
14:31:54 <russdeffner> it's part of 'bidding the job'/sizing up
14:32:32 <russdeffner> ok, just not to get stuck here...
14:32:51 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> maybe an addition to sizing up process?
14:33:10 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> i mean, do we want to add that then to the sizing up process?
14:33:14 <russdeffner> #action Work on sizing up projects, estimating time/resources, yes/no on AOI
14:33:30 <russdeffner> how is that?
14:34:17 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> the action point captures it perfectly :$
14:34:35 <russdeffner> great
14:34:52 <russdeffner> #topic Current Disaster Response Activity
14:35:10 <russdeffner> we're missing a few cards here...
14:36:00 <russdeffner> But the two that are there...
14:36:23 <russdeffner> Sri Lanka and Japan are both basically longer-term recovery events now
14:36:53 <russdeffner> As just mentioned, SL still has a lot a mapping to go to finish the entire AOI
14:37:28 <russdeffner> I saw Taichi in Milan and sounded like they are also just in a longer-term finish the area for recovery/future use mode
14:37:45 <russdeffner> Satoshi any news from you?
14:38:32 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> I'm not sure the detail, but I think we do not have no more urgent issue on those area.
14:39:09 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> Thank you for your kindly help from the globe!
14:39:17 <BlakeGirardot> Japan also brought a lot of mappers so that makes a difference
14:39:55 <BlakeGirardot> And they were very specific areas. So while both floods, jp was a different thing than sl.
14:40:00 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> I would like to hear the feedback from field for future response.
14:40:33 <BlakeGirardot> That will have to come from Taichi, he is the one who works directly with local folks.
14:40:56 <russdeffner> Yes, I will ask him to join a meeting if he can
14:41:04 <russdeffner> would be great to hear
14:41:12 <BlakeGirardot> A blog post would be good / maybe easier
14:41:27 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> A very special responder (Sakakibara-san) in Mabi area uses OSM in her website, but no other uses heard.
14:41:34 <hot_slack_bot> <nyampire> (for me, at least)
14:41:58 <russdeffner> so I added the other responses we have going
14:42:25 <BlakeGirardot> To some extent you have to just know that OSM data is _the_ dataset most commonly used. Granted jp is a very advanced country, but during disaster response, I consider it a good thing if I never hear from anyone.
14:42:33 <russdeffner> The Peru team will start their relief mission today; last I looked there was just one task left to be validated
14:43:03 <BlakeGirardot> If I never hear from anyone that means we did our job exactly right, we made map data not on their list of worries.
14:43:26 <russdeffner> So we'll be able to conclude Peru very quick
14:43:58 <russdeffner> Paul S. - do you want to follow up with Johnattan for a use-case story on that?
14:44:19 <hot_slack_bot> <pjstewart1984> :+1:
14:44:19 <russdeffner> I think it's a neat event as it's basically 100% volunteer effort
14:44:45 <russdeffner> great, thanks
14:45:02 <hot_slack_bot> <pjstewart1984> I'll email him - he's just emailed the community saying his team is now heading out there
14:45:13 <russdeffner> #action Follow up with OSM Peru for Friaje story - Paul S. & ?
14:45:33 <russdeffner> Blake, do you have news on Laos?
14:45:49 <BlakeGirardot> Laos is essentially done as far as we can do.
14:46:11 <BlakeGirardot> We uploaded DG to OAM and I created two projects to map unitar's aoi that was covered by that imagery
14:46:22 <BlakeGirardot> I updated the export and sent it off to carolina
14:46:48 <russdeffner> Ok, should/can we archive that one then?
14:46:49 <BlakeGirardot> I think we covered about 90% of their original aoi as the DG imagery still left some gaps with existing layers.
14:46:56 <BlakeGirardot> Is it validated?
14:46:59 <BlakeGirardot> looking
14:47:05 <russdeffner> or leave it 'running' until next meeting?
14:47:36 <BlakeGirardot> Oh I am sorry, you mean as whole
14:47:44 <russdeffner> yes, sorry
14:47:50 <russdeffner> campaign
14:47:53 <BlakeGirardot> yes, I would say we can conclude it. I will need to follow up with Holly at world bank as well.
14:48:17 <BlakeGirardot> As I said, as you reviewed, we had mapped a fair amount of that as part of malaria
14:48:31 <BlakeGirardot> so I do not think we need to go over it again
14:48:31 <russdeffner> Ok, yes I am trying to come back around and give a valiant effort on 'phase 3' of these
14:48:52 <BlakeGirardot> so i feel like we can conclude it unless more imagery comes out or the aoi changes.
14:49:15 <russdeffner> but some we may just conclude without AAR's or anything
14:49:33 <hot_slack_bot> <p.ulbrich> AARs?
14:49:41 <russdeffner> after action review
14:50:01 <russdeffner> gotta look our mistakes straight in the eyes :D
14:50:17 <russdeffner> anything else on current incidents?
14:50:47 <russdeffner> #action Phase 3 Peru and Laos
14:51:06 <russdeffner> oh, how could I almost forget
14:51:14 <russdeffner> Ebola in DRC
14:51:36 <russdeffner> we'll be supporting as last time, at the moment we are treating it as a new response
14:52:03 <russdeffner> #topic Disaster Mapping Capacity
14:52:14 <russdeffner> last couple topics I have to get through quick
14:52:34 <russdeffner> #info 757 Users have logged in, 70 have Enrolled in a course, 44 have completed Activation Essentials (become Trainees), 7 have completed a role course (become an Activator)
14:52:50 <russdeffner> numbers going up, good sign
14:52:55 <russdeffner> any questions?
14:53:22 <russdeffner> we have more to discuss on this topic generally, but let's table
14:53:59 <russdeffner> #topic On-boarding for Validators
14:54:16 <russdeffner> This has been coming up more
14:54:16 <BlakeGirardot> Dealing with this now
14:54:59 <BlakeGirardot> Validator role is unique and needs to be pretty expereienced folks. JOSM users
14:55:22 <russdeffner> I think we can make some simple 'guidelines', such as - look at their OSM account, if they've got more then X changesets over at least Y years, good sign they should be a validator
14:55:47 <BlakeGirardot> We are also looking at the intermediate step of allow project managers to require a certain mapper experienced level to validate, which is a good compramise
14:55:52 <russdeffner> maybe not years, plural, but something like that
14:55:59 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> Those changesets could all be just building projects
14:56:17 <BlakeGirardot> (+1 ralph)
14:56:31 <russdeffner> Yes, so you can't just rely on one thing
14:56:38 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> Not many projects these days that include roads, landuse, etc.
14:56:46 <russdeffner> which is why I think we need to draft something
14:56:58 <BlakeGirardot> We definately need criteria
14:58:00 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> Can we have a tick box for validators so they can tick which features they are experienced in mapping
14:58:48 <BlakeGirardot> Aside from the allowing mapping experience requirement for validating on a project by project basis, there is probably not going to be a tasking manager fix for this anytime soon.
14:58:57 <BlakeGirardot> We just need a list of criteria
14:59:09 <russdeffner> #action Draft criteria for current Validator role on-boarding
14:59:46 <russdeffner> #idea explore technical improvements to the TM for Vaildation and Validator role(s)
15:00:03 <russdeffner> Ok, I'm making Jurg wait for our call :)
15:00:10 <russdeffner> #topic Any other business
15:00:30 <Alek> i am against statistical methods to recruit good validators
15:01:10 <BlakeGirardot> ya there are two issues as russ listed
15:01:11 <Alek> i think responsibilty is fully on the PM side
15:01:47 <BlakeGirardot> one is who gets the validator role, one is how you can restrict validation via the tasking manager.
15:03:13 <Alek> a PM should cross check new validators with standard OSM quality tools and make the judgement based on that
15:03:39 <BlakeGirardot> Again, that does not address ralph's point
15:04:25 <BlakeGirardot> There has to be a list of criteria so we have a standard to use for making that judgement
15:04:43 <BlakeGirardot> but that could be part of figuring out if they are meeting the criteria
15:04:58 <Alek> well, i guess a validator knows his weak points and doesn't touch what he has no expertise in
15:05:02 <BlakeGirardot> also, examples of what tools and how you use them to evaluate individuals would help too alek
15:05:12 <BlakeGirardot> ya, hopefully :)
15:05:14 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> I am finding inexperienced validators who do incomplete validations using iD Editor. So JOSM experience could be one test.
15:05:33 <BlakeGirardot> Ya, i do not see someone getting the validator role who is not a josm user
15:05:47 <BlakeGirardot> there are too many checks that josm makes to the road network that iD does not.
15:05:57 <BlakeGirardot> In a disaster scenario I need all those road validation checks run
15:06:09 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> Unfortunately validators do not know their weak points.
15:06:09 <BlakeGirardot> one tiny mistake has a huge impact on a regions routing.
15:06:42 <russdeffner> Ok, I encourage everyone to keep discussing, but unless there's a new item of business...
15:06:50 <BlakeGirardot> Aye, thank you everyone!
15:06:59 <russdeffner> let us adjourn; thank you!
15:07:04 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> One help would be to be able to identify which tiles a single validator has validated.
15:07:24 <hot_slack_bot> <r_aytoun> So we can fix or check that persons work.
15:07:24 <russdeffner> #endmeeting