15:59:55 <anadahz> #startmeeting
15:59:55 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon May 22 15:59:55 2017 UTC.  The chair is anadahz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:59:55 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:19 <slacktopus> <sbs> Hello!
16:00:24 <anadahz> Hello everyone!
16:01:01 <anadahz> Who is around?
16:01:22 <anadahz> (Meeting agenda: https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-irc-pad)
16:01:24 <slacktopus> Action: sbs is here
16:02:15 <darkk> asalam alaykum!
16:03:09 <darkk> reminder: tomorrow, 23rd May 2017 at 14:00 UTC, monthly community meeting takes place here
16:03:21 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> hello
16:03:23 <willscott> hi
16:04:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk thanks for sharing the reminder :slightly_smiling_face:
16:05:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> It looks like we don't have an agenda this week
16:06:06 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Is there anything anyone would like to discuss?
16:06:13 <anadahz> anyone would like to add(comment on anything?
16:07:06 <slacktopus> Action: hellais waves
16:07:42 <slacktopus> Action: landers is here
16:07:52 <anadahz> full house :)
16:08:53 <anadahz> I will start
16:09:13 <anadahz> #topic: OONI public events (in real life)
16:10:02 <anadahz> A workshop session is going to take place at https://2017.rmll.info
16:11:33 <anadahz> Are there any other public events/presentations/workshop planned for the next 2 months?
16:12:11 <anadahz> as some people have asked for an OONI public hackathon this summer so it will be great to find the place with most OONI people attending.
16:14:14 <anadahz> EOF
16:14:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Other OONI events include:
16:15:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 1. OONI session at the ISC Global Workshop in Washington on Thursday and Friday (25th & 26th May)
16:15:36 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 2. OONI Partner Gathering in Toronto (10th & 11th July) -- for partners only
16:16:11 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> 3. OONI sessions (hopefully!) at the Citizen Lab Summer Institute (12th-14th July)
16:17:37 <darkk> I also plan to give a short talk about OONI at CIF-4 (Moscow, keywords: pirate party, cryptoinstallfest) on the 1st of July.
16:18:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk awesome :slightly_smiling_face:
16:18:43 <darkk> planned improvement of middlebox detection & classification makes some sense to promote it in RU (as black-lists are already semi-public here)
16:19:08 <slacktopus> <sbs> In half June there should be a coding night in Turin on OONI (have been contacted by organizers, details still to sort out)
16:19:30 <anadahz> Nice @agrabeli, darkk!
16:19:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sbs cool!
16:20:07 <anadahz> It may be good to add these events somewhere so people interested could perhaps join.
16:20:23 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz the people who have asked for an OONI public hackathon -- which content are they based in?
16:20:29 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> *continent
16:21:08 <anadahz> mainly Europe
16:21:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz yeah I was thinking that it would be good to have an Events page on the website.... however, the website requires a lot of restructuring and it's hard to add new pages atm without some programming being involved
16:22:00 <darkk> anadahz: do you mean blog.tpo public calendar?
16:22:07 <anadahz> but usually a public OONI hackathon is better when many OONI people are around
16:22:32 <anadahz> blog.tpo is also a good place to post these events
16:23:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We could post these events for now on blog.tpo, and later on create an elaborate Events page on our site which includes future and past events.
16:23:35 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz It seems that the whole OONI team will only meet in person in Toronto, within the foreseeable future
16:23:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> or at least until the end of summer
16:24:33 <anadahz> Shall we do a public hackathon in Toronto?
16:25:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz but aren't the people who have asked for this in Europe?
16:25:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz I think that most people who would want to come would be attending the OONI Partner Gathering and/or CLSI anyway
16:25:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> in Toronto, that is
16:26:40 <willscott> having a focus for such an event might make it more productive than just a generic hackathon
16:27:00 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @willscott agreed
16:28:02 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> That said, we could potentially host a generic hackathon in Europe sometime in the summer or in the fall
16:28:14 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> But I'm not sure we would have any substantial funding for that
16:28:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Meaning that we would probably have to fly to the place at our own cost
16:28:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> *expense
16:29:31 <anadahz> My point on having a hackathon close to the days of the non-public is that since no further cost will occur since the OONI people are already going to be around.
16:29:54 <anadahz> * non-public event
16:30:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz sure, but we would still need to think about funding for the extra days, to cover the venue costs and the extra accommodation costs
16:31:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> and I'm not sure we can request for more funding at this point
16:31:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> unless if we had a super unofficial, casual hackathon at a cafe or something, and we each paid for our own extra costs
16:32:03 <anadahz> The kind of hackathob that I have in mind doesn't require funding for extra days or venue costs.
16:32:20 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz how do you envision it?
16:32:39 <anadahz> like the previous one at the onionspace
16:33:06 <slacktopus> <sbs> mmm
16:33:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz We had a big budget for that one :slightly_smiling_face:
16:33:17 <slacktopus> <sbs> which year?
16:33:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz Even the smallest events require funding
16:33:37 <anadahz> well we din't pay for the venue
16:34:01 <anadahz> sbs: 2016
16:34:05 <slacktopus> <hellais> I would also recommend that if we are to do a public hackathon it should actually be planned in advance well with some set of concrete things for the participants to do.
16:34:14 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> But we still had to pay for hotel, flights, meals, and local transportation costs. And we received funding to host the event.
16:34:43 <anadahz> @hellais: Exactly that is why I start the discussion as I early as I can (some weeks already ago)
16:35:27 <anadahz> @agrabeli: IIRC there were no meal or  local transportation costs covered for the hackthon.
16:35:29 <slacktopus> <sbs> maybe then it makes sense to say something like "September in Berlin"?
16:35:44 <anadahz> @agrabeli but for the OONI private meeting
16:35:46 <slacktopus> <hellais> Even the one at the Onion space I think left a lot of room for improvement
16:36:21 <slacktopus> <sbs> @hellais the one at onion space is the one where the pipeline was started? (2014?)
16:36:30 <slacktopus> <hellais> I personally don't have time to plan for such a thing from now to July, but don't let me stop you heh
16:36:39 <anadahz> @hellais sure the hackathon at the Onionspace was announced like a week or two before the hackathon
16:36:56 <slacktopus> <hellais> @sbs I think @anadahz is talking about the one last year
16:37:06 <slacktopus> <sbs> ah, okay
16:37:14 <slacktopus> <sbs> but that one had budget!
16:37:23 <anadahz> sbs: The one at the onionspace was during the very cold winter in Berlin
16:37:30 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> The last hackathon, hosted at the onionspace, had a budget, provided for funders
16:37:38 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> *from
16:37:39 <slacktopus> <hellais> Sure, but it was in a location we were familiar with and had already a venue and still we had a fairly large budget
16:38:19 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> In short, all events, even the smallest, require funding/budgets....unless you expect everyone to pay for their accommodation, flights, etc. themselves.
16:38:23 <slacktopus> <hellais> Unsure how the same could be worked out for Toronto. We are already​struggling with organizing the main event and have very limited budget/time available
16:38:26 <slacktopus> <sbs> @anadahz: will you be in EU during half June?
16:38:50 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Personally, I'd prefer to request for funding that supports hackathons in South America, Africa, and Asia
16:39:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> In countries that we are actually studying, and where internet censorship is implemented
16:39:05 <anadahz> sbs: end of June
16:39:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Regional hackathons, in other words
16:39:09 <slacktopus> <sbs> agrabeli: yes that would be super cool
16:39:29 <slacktopus> <sbs> anadahz: ah, pity, otherwise you could help me with the Torino thing
16:39:41 <anadahz> @agrabeli that will be nice as well but even more difficult to organize
16:39:55 <anadahz> sbs: which Torino "thing"?
16:40:03 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Going forward, I plan to request funding for such regional hackathons, and this is mapped out as part of plans
16:40:13 <slacktopus> <sbs> anyway, the lowest cost thing I can think of happens in Berlin and requires budget for travelling and knowing the topic of the hackathon
16:40:35 <slacktopus> <sbs> anadahz: the night hackathon I mentioned before
16:40:57 <slacktopus> <hellais> > sbs: In half June there should be a coding night in Turin on OONI (have been contacted by organizers, details still to sort out)
16:41:28 <anadahz> sbs: oh that will but it's super early...
16:42:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz We can organize regional hackathons in collaboration with partners
16:42:40 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> But I imagine such events taking place from the fall onwards
16:42:49 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> (not much time - or funding - before that)
16:43:16 <anadahz> I hope that this discssion will start as a call for all to talk ahead of time about the events/workshops/talks/sessions that we are organizing/planning to organize
16:44:59 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> indeed
16:45:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> The steps in terms of organizing a hackathon (or any event really) include:
16:45:43 <darkk> anadahz, IMHO, if you have any specific hackable agenda in mind and can talk CL into giving us a room for free right after the event (I assume universities have non-zero amount of unoccupied rooms during weekends), I think that the problem is half solved. Everyone wanting to stay for a hackathon just pays +2 nights from own wallet. IMHO, the biggest issue is not the budget but lack of clean
16:45:45 <darkk> hackable mu-projects.
16:46:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk agreed -- yeah, step 0 should be identifying the scope and goals of the event.
16:47:11 <anadahz> agreed darkk
16:47:12 * darkk also knows nothing about possible financial inequality of possible hackathon attendees
16:47:37 <anadahz> Hackathons are also a place were new people are introduced to OONI.
16:48:14 <anadahz> and there always things to hack around
16:49:35 <anadahz> for instace some section of the OONI website got face-lifted during the last hackathon, people learned how to use ooni-*
16:49:41 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think making a hackathon with the assumption that "there are always things to hack around" is a really good way to make a bad hackathon
16:49:59 <slacktopus> <sbs> +1
16:50:34 <willscott> question: how have recent protocol tests (e.g. telegram) been implemented? are they in ooniprobe, or in MK?
16:50:52 <anadahz> ..add some solid dev ideas and I guess we have a good recipe for the hackathon
16:52:02 <slacktopus> <hellais> @anadahz yes, but as I said that taking some time to come up with said "solid dev ideas"
16:52:16 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I think it's time we start doing more focused hackathons, where we reach out to specific audiences (e.g. data scientists) and provide concrete things to work on (e.g. pipeline).
16:52:54 <slacktopus> <landers> will: they went into ooniprobe first, and there's a PR open for them in MK
16:54:04 <anadahz> Glad that we all have nice ideas for good hackathons! Let's make use of it and plan a good hackathon in 2017! :)
16:54:42 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz perhaps you would be interested in hosting an OONI hackathon for University students in your area?
16:55:11 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz Perhaps it makes sense to tap into existing communities near us, and to leverage resources that are available to us
16:55:22 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> For events that don't have budgets, that is
16:55:31 <anadahz> @agrabeli: Sure though there are not that many OONI people here for a hackathon.
16:55:44 <anadahz> Also people don't even know what is OONI :)
16:55:49 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> that's fine, you're an Oonitarian! :slightly_smiling_face:
16:56:03 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I don't think the entire team needs to be at every single OONI hackathon.
16:56:06 <anadahz> (at least not many people yet)
16:56:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Even more of a reason to host a generic hackathon to introduce them to the project! ;)
16:56:47 <anadahz> If another oonitarian comes around I will try to arrange an OONI hackathon.
16:57:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> why does another oonitarian have to be there?
16:57:31 <anadahz> @agrabeli I guess a workshop or presenation will be much more useful to such an audience.
16:57:38 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I think we should take advantage of the fact that we are all spread across countries/continents to host even more hackathons around the world
16:57:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Without necessarily being restricted by budgets
16:57:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> when possible, that is
16:57:52 <anadahz> @agrabeli it's not fun to be alone :)
16:58:03 <slacktopus> <sbs> agrabeli: +1
16:58:04 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> But it's fun to meet new people :slightly_smiling_face:
16:59:18 <anadahz> I have already planned a number of events, but I don't think that 1 person is enough to handle the work needed for a hackathon
16:59:57 <anadahz> OK I think we hit the time limit for this meeting (again)!
17:00:07 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Well it depends on how big you want the hackathon to be, and how many people you expect to attend
17:00:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Also, it might be a good opportunity to collaborate with local groups on this
17:00:53 <anadahz> @agrabeli even with non much people is not easy to handle/organize a hackathon
17:01:29 <anadahz> ..and the local groups need to be formed or getting to know them
17:01:47 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We have a partnership with Coding Rights, for example.
17:02:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Anyway.... my point is that there are solutions. :slightly_smiling_face:
17:04:21 <anadahz> @agrabeli They are in a different region quite far from, similar to the distance from Berlin to Greece.
17:04:37 <anadahz> * Coding Rights
17:06:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz well cost-wise, it's certainly more affordable than bringing the entire OONI team to X location.
17:07:46 <anadahz> @agrabeli Suprisingly cost-wise it may be the same or even less costly to bring an OONI person here.
17:08:05 <anadahz> domestic flights are very expensive here
17:09:16 <anadahz> @agrabeli If you have any ideas on how to do this better or even start a talk with Coding Rights so that we can arrange something together will be really nice!
17:10:12 <anadahz> I guess we can proceed by ending this meeting! :)
17:10:54 <anadahz> (if noone has something more to add)
17:10:55 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @anadahz I'm thinking of looping in Coding Rights when we have budget to support a regional event.
17:11:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> In the mean while, more unofficial events can also take place, when possible.
17:11:23 <anadahz> @agrabeli Great!
17:13:40 <anadahz> Thanks everyone for attending!
17:13:44 <anadahz> #endmeeting