12:59:37 <darkk> #startmeeting
12:59:37 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jun 28 12:59:37 2017 UTC.  The chair is darkk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:59:37 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:00:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Hello everyone
13:00:11 <darkk> and MeetBot has misticking clock!
13:00:24 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Welcome to this month's OONI community meeting :slightly_smiling_face:
13:00:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk no worries
13:00:39 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> who is here?
13:00:52 <slacktopus> <sukarn> Hi all :slightly_smiling_face:
13:01:03 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sukarn hello, thanks for joining us :slightly_smiling_face:
13:01:57 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> Hello
13:01:59 <hellais> hellos
13:02:16 <hellais> what is the agenda link?
13:02:21 <slacktopus> <vaishali> Hello all! :slightly_smiling_face:
13:02:26 <slacktopus> <sukarn> https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-community-meeting
13:02:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Hi everyone, thanks for joining us
13:02:41 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Thanks @sukarn for sharing the agenda link
13:02:46 <hellais> Sukarn: thanks
13:02:57 <slacktopus> <sukarn> :slightly_smiling_face:
13:03:11 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Currently we only have 1 agenda topic, but please fee encouraged to add more topics to the pad that you would like us to discuss today
13:03:38 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> So let's begin with the first topic
13:03:41 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> #topic 1. Internet censorship factors in developing countries
13:04:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Would the person who added the topic like to share a few words to initiate the discussion?
13:05:56 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Hm, maybe the person who added the topic is not here right now...?
13:07:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Would anyone currently on this channel like to discuss anything pertaining to this 1st agenda topic?
13:09:11 * darkk doesn't quite understand what "factors" are actually meant
13:10:59 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> As a general note: Internet censorship varies from country to country, and even from network to network within countries. The way that internet censorship is implemented varies depending on multiple factors, such as laws, policies, etc. This is true across nations in countries of the Global South and the Global North (if I can use these terms).
13:12:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> That is why we find it interesting to look at each country separately, and to ideally collect network measurements from as many different vantage points within a country as possible, so that we can gain a more comprehensive understanding of how internet censorship is implemented.
13:12:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Are there any specific questions that are relevant to the first agenda topic?
13:13:44 <slacktopus> <sergeih> "developing" is a bit confusing
13:13:56 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih agreed
13:14:04 <slacktopus> <sergeih> the history of control shows the main variable is the type of regime
13:15:06 <slacktopus> <sergeih> has anyone come across any study that would aim to analyze patterns of control in a set of countries (say , first is to protect children, then fight terrorism, then tackle anonymity, etc) ?
13:16:05 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergei what types of "patterns of control" are you referring to specifically? Would this be specific to internet censorship, or would it also include surveillance and other types of information control?
13:17:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih I think Freedom House do this to some degree by comparing internet access across countries
13:17:04 <darkk> sergeih, you're describing Russian rhetoric quite precisely :-)
13:17:29 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @darkk
13:17:39 <slacktopus> <sergeih> any of the two
13:17:57 <slacktopus> <sergeih> but "control" would encompass both of course
13:18:21 <slacktopus> <hellais> I am not aware of any study looking at "patterns of control" in that way, but that sort of "slippery slope" pattern is one that is seen in many countries (even Italy) and I think it would be something interesting to look at.
13:18:30 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @agrabeli , yes on Freedom House, but each country report is an individual case study
13:19:10 <slacktopus> <sergeih> I was thinking more of a combined view
13:19:58 <slacktopus> <sergeih> i am researching Russia and see that they "borrowed" some of the elements from China and Turkey and even the UK
13:20:31 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih I'm more familiar with individual country reports published by Freedom House, Privacy International, the Citizen Lab, OONI, amongst others. A study though which does a comparative study does not come to mind right now, though I would imagine that such studies might exist.
13:20:53 <slacktopus> <sergeih> and was wondering if there is a database of all possible "controls"
13:21:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih ah, yes! (kind of, at least)
13:21:39 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @agrabeli thank you.
13:21:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> There's the Digital Freedom Alliance project: https://github.com/digitalfreedom
13:22:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I contributed to this 2 years ago -- it used to have a global data map, but the server of the site appears to be down atm
13:22:21 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> (https://digitalfreedom.io/)
13:22:44 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @agrabeli thank you. did not know about it
13:22:51 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> @sergeih can you elaborate 'type of regime' as the main variable?
13:22:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> It aggregates information pertaining to targeted malware attacks, surveillance vendors, surveillance tech resellers, encryption laws, etc. for many countries around the world
13:22:57 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> hi
13:23:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> All data is collected on github, so that people can potentially contribute to it on an ongoing basis
13:23:17 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> hi @manlyelectronics :slightly_smiling_face:
13:23:45 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Other than that, there is also OONI's own resource, called OONI Explorer: https://explorer.ooni.torproject.org/world/
13:24:00 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> This shows network measurement data collected from more than 190 countries from around the world
13:24:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> And such data specifically aims at detecting internet censorship
13:25:49 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @sarath_ms e.g. Giacomello separates "democracies" from "autocracies" when describing controls
13:26:07 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Trackography is a project I worked on several years ago which maps online tracking (i.e. corporate surveillance) around the world: https://trackography.org/
13:26:45 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Then there is https://internetshutdowns.in/, which maps internet shutdowns in India.
13:27:04 <slacktopus> <sergeih> Freedom on the Net refers to "democratic" v "non-democratic"
13:27:10 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih in short, there are a variety of data sources out there which map various types of information controls around the world
13:27:43 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih personally I don't really like comparing countries like that ("democratic" vs. "non-democratic")
13:27:43 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @agrabeli, very useful thank you
13:29:11 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> @agrabeli true. especially when some democratic countries get away with violating more rights than non-democratic ones.
13:29:42 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sarath_ms right
13:30:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sarath_ms I think that comparing countries based on such values can potentially lead to over-simplification, while I think there are many variables to consider when analyzing and comparing countries. Also, I'm not sure it's fair to compare countries at all, since their landscapes, background, etc are often so different.
13:34:25 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> @agrabeli but I think Internet then becomes the equalizer. With reasonably objective factors it would help having a comparative study of information control across the countries.
13:34:33 <slacktopus> <sergeih> @agrabeli might be interesting to run a comparison b/w Polity IV score, Freedom on the Net and Rule of law indices to see if there is a correlation
13:37:19 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I agree that certain variables can definitely be used to do a comparative study. I just think that each variable in itself requires a fair amount of analysis in advance -- for example, a country may have certain laws that uphold certain freedoms, but maybe in practice those laws are not implemented. In such a case, there would be the risk that that could could get the same ranking as another country which does implement relevant laws, if not a
13:37:19 <slacktopus> properly.
13:38:28 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Since we're on the topic of information control datasets, I have added a relevant topic in the agenda which I suggest we proceed to.
13:38:50 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> #topic 2. Creating an information controls database to contextualize network measurements from around the world (agrabeli)
13:39:22 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> This is an idea that we have had for a while, since OONI network measurement data alone does not tell the full story.
13:39:50 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> We also need to know a lot of other contextual information, such as relevant laws and policies, previous cases of censorship and surveillance, etc.
13:40:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> To this end, we would like to start building a community resource which aggregates such contextual information for each country around the world :slightly_smiling_face:
13:40:56 <slacktopus> <sergeih> sounds interesting
13:41:04 <slacktopus> <sergeih> both surveillance and content ?
13:41:33 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih yes
13:42:16 <darkk> agrabeli, m-m-m-m... are you suggesting to develop a table that is full of factors like "democratic / plutocratic", "bans all porn / bans non-traditional porn / loves porn", etc? isn't it the oversimplification you dislike? :)
13:42:23 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> The idea is that this database would not only benefit OONI, but also other projects out there
13:42:40 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk hehe nope, that's not really what I have in mind
13:43:37 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Rather, I'm imagining a database that aggregates factual information (rather than judgements), such as links to relevant laws, links to relevant policies, links to reports on censorship or surveillance....and possibly even news feeds pulled from social media (not 100% sure of the last though)
13:44:02 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> agrabeli: You can never tell full story. Personally I needed test specific connection and compare internet providers. Mostly they are ok. But I do find new and new websites which are blocked or semi blocked. I cannot test all possible sites are visit. Thefore tool must be dynamic, transparently running on the background, testing DNS and stuff of my current connection. If any inconsistences found – alert.
13:44:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Well, links can also include judgments instead of factual information....but the idea is to keep it as objective as possible.
13:44:19 <slacktopus> <sergeih> one example
13:44:21 <slacktopus> <sergeih> http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/our-work/projects/world-intermediary-liability-map-wilmap
13:44:38 <slacktopus> <sergeih> focused on intermediary liability
13:44:51 <slacktopus> <sergeih> also through a prism of state controls
13:45:13 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> You're right - you can never tell the full story. I guess I was trying to say that it would be nice to collect more types of different information, which can help provide more insight.
13:45:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sergeih very nice :slightly_smiling_face:
13:45:45 <darkk> agrabeli, sorry, I don't get the difference quite well. IMHO we're going exactly simplification route as soon as we start to put these facts into categories.
13:46:32 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk yeah, that is definitely a big risk... Which is why I think it's important that we think carefully about (a) the types of information we decide to collect, (b) how we collect them/in which format, etc.
13:47:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @darkk Hopefully this database will serve as a resource that provides some complementary information
13:48:54 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Question to everyone: Are there specific types of information that you wish were available in a database that could help provide more insight into information controls? If so, what types of information would these be?
13:49:17 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> Why not collaborate with antivirus software providers? I bet many of them collect DNS stats and network errors anyway; it is the matter of getting information from them. That would give heaps more data then unknown app.
13:49:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @manlyelectronics that's a great suggestion!
13:51:49 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I really like the idea of collaborating with different types of groups and companies to collect information that can help provide more insight into information controls, and compliment OONI data.
13:51:56 * darkk imagines ooni.torproject.org badge: "Report was proudly produced collaborating with Kaspersky inc." :-D
13:52:37 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> hehe
13:52:42 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> :slightly_smiling_face:
13:53:42 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> I could be additional marketing bite for them too. People hate to be watched. If an antivirus offers extra alert – they will grab it.
13:54:05 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> right
13:54:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> yeah, I think these are good points
13:54:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I suspect that the main challenge in creating and maintaining such a database would be the data formats... :O :)
13:56:34 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> Do you mean user interface  or internal database medium?
13:56:54 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> both, but mostly internal database
13:57:13 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> like agreeing on data formats for integrating other datasets...and agreeing on data formats that work well for contributors...etc
13:58:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> As we only have 2 minutes left, is there anything else anyone would like to add?
13:59:16 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> I was hoping to get some updates about probe orchestration
13:59:26 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> particularly on mobile :slightly_smiling_face:
13:59:53 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> Where exchange and log ideas meanwhile, between meeting?
13:59:57 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sarath_ms ah yes :slightly_smiling_face: Just added it to the agenda
14:00:13 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> #topic 3. Upcoming probe orchestration (agrabeli)
14:00:19 <slacktopus> <manlyelectronics> I would formulate agenda cleary. I can see that agenda description has no verb, no action and no purpose. Although it is a valid formulation in Asian languages it is confusing for English speakers, programmers, engineers.
14:01:09 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @manlyelectronics "probe orchestration" is a term that we (OONI) use to refer to the orchestration of probes
14:01:38 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> In other words, ooniprobes are deployed around the world, and we are implementing a system for remotely orchestrating them if users opt-in for this
14:01:43 <darkk> manlyelectronics, ooni-talk@ mailing list and this channel (bridged with IRC) are good mediums information exchange between meetings # https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/ooni-talk/
14:02:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Such orchestration would involve the scheduling and triggering of tests, as well as instructing probes to test specific input (such as specific sites) for censorship
14:02:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @hellais is the main person working on probe orchestration, and can provide more information detailed information
14:03:37 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> I guess the main thing I wanted to mention here is that we will soon be implementing push notifications for mobile probes, meaning that we will be able to send notifications/alerts to mobile probes requesting them to run tests, particularly when we hear of censorship events occuring
14:03:43 <slacktopus> <hellais> The current plan for orchestration is that at the end of month we are going to release a very basic form of orchestration
14:04:04 <slacktopus> <hellais> In the sense that we will be adding support for sending alert messages of sorts to users via push notifications
14:04:46 <slacktopus> <hellais> This will work by sending them a message that when they click on the notification icon the ooniprobe app will open showing them a webpage with a page describing what we wanted to notify them of
14:05:24 <slacktopus> <hellais> The goal of this is to send contextual informational messages to users of ooniprobe in countries where we know of ongoing censorship or that we would like to get measurements from
14:06:16 <slacktopus> <hellais> After that we are going to start rolling out actual proper probe orchestration, which will basically give us the ability to dynamically trigger measurements based on the country of the user either one-off or at regular intervals
14:06:37 <slacktopus> <hellais> I believe the expected timeline for that is another 1-2 months
14:07:06 <slacktopus> <hellais> You can find a design document of how orchestration will work here: https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-spec/blob/master/opos/OONI-Probe-Orchestration-System-Design.md
14:07:36 <slacktopus> <hellais> We have also defined some sort of policy explaining how we are going to be using orchestration and who is going to have the "orchestration power": https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-spec/blob/master/opos/Measurements-and-url-policy.md
14:08:00 <slacktopus> <hellais> The actual code for the orchestration backend and administrator frontend can be found here: https://github.com/thetorproject/proteus
14:08:20 <slacktopus> <hellais> @sarath_ms did you have some specific questions you would like to have answered pertaining to orchestration?
14:09:37 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> I haven't been following the developments. Thanks for sharing the links to code and specs
14:10:05 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> What's the governance model around triggering an orchestration?
14:11:03 <slacktopus> <hellais> It's defined inside of: https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-spec/blob/master/opos/Measurements-and-url-policy.md
14:12:13 <slacktopus> <hellais> The tl;dr is that we user safety will always be the priority and for every orchestrated measurement there will always be accountability and transparency
14:14:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @sarath_ms In short, we'll start pushing notifications to mobile probes within the next week or so, and orchestration will start within 1-2 months.
14:14:53 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Are there any questions or is there anything else someone would like to discuss?
14:16:01 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Given that we are 15 minutes past time (and have no more agenda items), I guess we can adjourn the meeting here.
14:16:13 <slacktopus> <sarath_ms> OK
14:16:31 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> If you have questions at a later stage, please feel encouraged to ping us here or to drop us an email at contact@openobservatory.org
14:16:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Next month's community meeting will be announced on the #ooni-talk, #keepiton, and #gv mailing lists, per usual.
14:17:06 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Thanks everyone for joining us, and hope you enjoy the rest of your day/night! :slightly_smiling_face:
14:17:10 <darkk> and if your question is public, use aforementioned mailing list for accountability and transparency :-)
14:19:30 <darkk> #endmeeting