12:59:12 <hellais> #startmeeting OONI Community meeting 2018-07-31
12:59:12 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jul 31 12:59:12 2018 UTC.  The chair is hellais. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:59:12 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:59:38 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Hello everyone, welcome to the July OONI Community meeting! :)
12:59:50 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> o/
12:59:55 <slacktopus> <sbs> hello!
12:59:58 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Please feel encouraged to introduce yourselves (or waive) as you join
13:00:10 <slacktopus> <hellais> :wave:
13:00:29 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> As a reminder, please add topics you'd like to discuss here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/ooni-community-meeting
13:02:09 <slacktopus> <eiko> _observing_ still working now :S
13:02:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Today we published a short report on the blocking of social media in Mali: https://ooni.torproject.org/post/mali-disruptions-amid-2018-election/ We'll also be publishing another report tomorrow, so stay tuned!
13:02:57 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> There have been various elections over the last week, and I know that many have been monitoring them in terms of potential censorship events. Thanks so much for using OONI Probe as part of your research!
13:03:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> The 1st agenda item has been added by @babatunde.okunoye, but he unfortunately can't join us here today. Nonetheless, we can briefly cover it (as it may be of interest to others as well).
13:03:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> topic #1 Updates on new methodology for detecting Internet shutdowns being developed by OONI
13:04:55 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> So the long story short is that we've been trying to engage technical volunteers who are based in regions that frequently experience internet blackouts. Doing so though has been challenging, particularly since a considerable amount of risk is involved (i.e. most internet blackouts are reported in conflict zones).
13:04:56 <anadahz> hello everyone
13:05:09 <anadahz> (thanks for the +v anadahz)
13:05:16 <anadahz> err (thanks for the +v hellais )
13:05:35 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> That said, @hellais can provide more details on next steps.
13:05:40 <slacktopus> <hellais> To elaborate more on what @agrabeli mentioned
13:06:28 <slacktopus> <berhantaye> Hello :wave::skin-tone-5:
13:06:40 <slacktopus> <hellais> We do need some participants that are technically savvy that can help us validate a series of assumptions we documented inside of the internet blackout methodology paper, though that has proven to be quite difficult
13:07:30 <slacktopus> <hellais> However, we still think there are a series of things that would be useful to research and implement inside of OONI Probe and measurement-kit that may be useful for investigating internet blackouts, but are also useful even without something a internet blackout specific methodology
13:08:18 <slacktopus> <hellais> So instead of focusing on developing a methodology for internet blackouts, we are going to be focusing on the following areas, which will be useful even outside of the context of an internet blackout:
13:08:33 <slacktopus> <hellais> • Making OONI Probe more resilient to situations in which there is no internet connectivity
13:09:23 <slacktopus> <hellais> This means that it will be possible to run some OONI Probe tests even when there is partial (or missing) internet connectivity. Moreover it will mean that our app should support storing measurements on the device and being able to re-upload them once connectivity is restored.
13:10:05 <slacktopus> <hellais> • Developing new tests that collect data that are useful to investigate connectivity issues
13:11:16 <slacktopus> <hellais> In the internet blackout methodology document we already outlined what these tests are in some detail, but this would basically mean doing the research and writing the specs for the tests themselves and try them out in bad network conditions
13:11:56 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think this is +- the top level of how we are going to go about doing this. Are there any questions?
13:12:14 <slacktopus> <hellais> @darkk did I miss something you think would be important to highlight on this topic?
13:12:59 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Would leveraging RIPE Atlas as additional measurements help?
13:13:23 <slacktopus> <hellais> @khairil.yusof to my knowledge RIPE Atlas does not work when there is a blackout
13:13:54 <slacktopus> <hellais> I believe it relies on having a connection to their command and control servers to run measurements and the devices don’t have any sort of internal scheduling logic
13:14:29 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> one other situation with blackouts which probably has been considered that has happened here is overloaded mobile towers during protests
13:14:38 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> here as in Malaysia
13:14:50 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> almost like a self DDOS
13:15:11 <slacktopus> <hellais> Right
13:15:32 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think the tests and improvements we will make to the app could be useful to investigate those sorts of situations as well
13:15:48 <slacktopus> <darkk> WRT RIPE Atlas working offline -- it has some always-on measurements and local storage to save the data, so it MAY be valuable data sources. BUT almost no Atlas probes are connected to GSM networks, so its dataset is mostly about wired blackouts.
13:15:55 <slacktopus> <hellais> The key here, though, is that we are doing this in a framing of it not being a methodology specifically for internet blackouts
13:16:30 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> yup, the question we had in Malaysia was.. did .gov do something or was it overloaded cell towers?
13:16:40 <slacktopus> <hellais> What this means is that while we will not have logic in our orchestration servers to tell probes that upon detecting a blackout they should do a scan, a user should be able to manually initiate testing when they notice something wrong and upload the measurements when the event is over
13:18:04 <slacktopus> <hellais> > yup, the question we had in Malaysia was.. did .gov do something or was it overloaded cell towers?  As mentioned already, we are not framing this as a internet blackout methodology. It will be a useful stepping stone in that direction, but we don’t know if and how useful it will be to answer that question in this particular case or in any other case for that matter
13:19:21 <slacktopus> <hellais> They are tests that are useful in general, because they collect data on relevant and interesting network characteristics, but we do not have plans to, at least within the short term, of validating it against real world blackouts, because we don’t have a test lab to validate the various hypothesis we have on the blackouts
13:19:22 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> agree, it would also be useful for us in Malaysia for some use cases if we can prove that that there was no network access
13:19:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof I guess the new tests will be very experimental, so we'll continue learning and iterating throughout the process :slightly_smiling_face:
13:19:46 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> one use case here would be community wifi
13:20:06 <slacktopus> <darkk> :wave: everyone! I'm sorry, almost missed the meeting as it was moved to 13:00 UTC (it was 14:00 UTC previously) :(
13:20:24 <slacktopus> <hellais> > agree, it would also be useful for us in Malaysia for some use cases if we can prove that that there was no network access  It *may* be able to prove that, but at this stage I don’t think we have enough insight about what really happens during a blackouts to say that with certainty
13:20:34 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> yeah, sorry about that. I moved it as I'm interviewing someone at 14:00 UTC.
13:20:48 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> I was planning to use ooni probes to detect sites that was censored, but it would be great if it could also collect times when there is suspect to be no network connection
13:21:27 <slacktopus> <hellais> > but it would be great if it could also collect times when there is suspect to be no network connection  This for sure will not be possible in the first iterations
13:21:48 <slacktopus> <hellais> You will have to manually initiate the test and collect evidence of there being a blackout, if there was one
13:22:17 <slacktopus> <hellais> That is why, to avoid any sort of misunderstanding, we are not calling this an internet blackout methodology anymore.
13:24:44 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof if you're interested in participating in discussions related to the new tests, I imagine many of them will take place in the ooni-dev channel (or probably will in the near future).
13:25:05 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Are there any more questions/thoughts related to this topic? Or should we proceed with topic 2?
13:26:39 <slacktopus> <darkk> I'd add two cents.
13:30:32 <slacktopus> <darkk> The story of internet blackouts in mobile network is that OONI Probe has access to IP layer, the blackout may happen at that layer in case of cable cut (the phone will likely have IP connectivity in this case within ISP), but if the blackout happens at the lower layer (tower is overloaded, or air radio is jammed, or tower was shut down, or data connectivity was shut down), it's hard to say anything conclusive from OONI Probe due to mobile platfor
13:30:32 <slacktopus> It's possible to say more using custom hardware (or some custom rooted firmwares), but it's not currently a goal for us as we 1. have no good expertise in that area, 2. it's very hard to have "special" hardware, 3. we think that we can do lots of "good" stuff at IP layer that will be useful for mobile and for desktops and "going deeper" is postponed for that reason as well.
13:30:43 <slacktopus> <darkk> EOT
13:32:08 <slacktopus> <hellais> And most importantly, even if we did have custom hardware, we would still need somebody in a region affected by blackouts that could validate that the things we think are useful to measure are good enough signals.
13:33:18 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think we can move onto the next item
13:33:29 <slacktopus> <darkk> Yes. It's all three factors: expertise, logistics and opportunity cost (I've not placed them in any specific order).
13:33:51 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> Great, so moving on to the next topic...
13:34:04 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> topic #2 Cambodian Elections & Southeast Asia News Media test-list updates
13:34:15 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof can you please share some words?
13:34:55 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> So Cambodian elections happened last Sunday. It's one sided. Opposition MPs exiled, independent newspapers shutdown.
13:35:49 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Some form of Internet censorship was expected, given this, we organized a small group on Signal to run OONI Probe mobile tests
13:36:38 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> The government was transparent though, they published a list of sites they blocked.
13:37:07 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Lessons learned was similar to Malaysian one.
13:38:21 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> 1. Run OONI is effective when we need to test a set of URLs that can change, and need to crowd source on different networks
13:39:02 <slacktopus> <eiko> and they unblocked the sites after 48 hours as promised
13:39:27 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> interesting
13:39:51 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> 2. First time un briefed users not in our group get confused, they they click on the Run Tests after install and wonder why it's not testing Cambodian sites
13:40:35 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> 3. We had some issues of Internal Server 500 with the links (shorten and unshortened)
13:40:48 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> this is useful feedback!
13:41:12 <slacktopus> <hellais> Do you recall how the link was being clicked on that lead to the 500 errors?
13:41:31 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> 4. already noted in last meeting for Malaysian elections, there isn't an easy way to share data other than screenshots
13:41:42 <slacktopus> <hellais> We know that if you use a shortened URL and share the link on some platforms (such as facebook or twitter) they will break.
13:43:12 <slacktopus> <hellais> This is definitely something that is very important for us to address. What we would want to support is having a OONI Explorer sharable link from inside the app
13:43:57 <slacktopus> <hellais> However this is currently not possible due to the fact that the pipeline takes several hours for the measurements to appear in OONI Explorer. We have a plan for adding a speed layer once we make some architectural changes are made to the collector.
13:44:17 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Related to 2.  Elections are fluid events (48hrs window Cambodia, 2hrs window for Malaysia). So these tests need to be run repeatedly. Bookmarking Twitter or Saving the link is not that intuitive.
13:45:02 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> that's a good point
13:45:26 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> For now, better communications works eg. have a landing page or sharing link in signal
13:46:04 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Users also asked us how to enter custom URLs in the app to tests (I pointed them to OONI Run page)
13:46:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> yeah, the landing page you created for coordinating Cambodian testing is epic!
13:47:12 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> The new OONI Probe mobile apps, to be released by the end of the year, will allow users to test the sites of their choice directly in the app.
13:47:28 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> But it might be worth thinking of making users able run or add their own lists to test within the app, might be helpful
13:47:40 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Great
13:47:55 <slacktopus> <darkk> And it was good luck that landing page was not blocked :slightly_smiling_face:
13:48:00 <anadahz> @khairil.yusof what types of blocking they have used?
13:48:04 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> @hellais already raised this, the pipeline is a bit slow for news cycle
13:48:23 <slacktopus> <hellais> This is a good suggestion
13:48:25 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> so it's 48hrs and people are already reporting about the blocks
13:48:39 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> @anadahz DNS
13:49:33 <slacktopus> <hellais> @khairil.yusof yes we are aware of this. Making the pipeline tick at less than 48h is one of the highest backend dev tasks we have at the moment and we hope to reach at least 24h cycle very soon (hopefully not later than next month).
13:49:41 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof I have in my to-do list for today to do some basic data analysis for the Cambodian measurements collected from 29th July. I'll share a CSV file with you within the next hours.
13:49:50 <slacktopus> <hellais> @khairil.yusof BTW thank you so much for all the detailed feedback. It’s super useful!
13:50:21 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> I think that's about it for Cambodian, I expect other elections/events in SEA will be similar
13:50:52 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof indeed, your feedback is super useful! Would you be interested in participating in a UX interview for the new OONI Probe mobile apps? I've dropped you an email, and would love to interview to document your feedback and thoughts on the new apps
13:50:55 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> where we leverage @eiko and her networks, along with other groups having trained activists on using Signal and connected with each other to organize similar on the ground testing
13:51:18 <anadahz> @khairil.yusof Did people in Malaysia started using (or mentioned that they already use) alternative DNS resolvers?
13:51:56 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> @anadahz for technically inclined users yess
13:52:07 <slacktopus> <darkk> Yes, it's very interesting story that the block was - announced in advance as a list - timing for 48h-blackout was announced as well - and it was enforced for ~48h, not more It's not the level of sanity I usually see! :slightly_smiling_face:
13:52:23 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> but they're minority even though some popular websites ran some articles and howtos
13:52:50 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> do DNS blocking is extremely effective
13:52:54 <slacktopus> <eiko> Yeah, it's actually out of my expectation
13:53:28 <slacktopus> <darkk> and it's also quite transparent
13:53:34 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> the target is not the activists
13:53:59 <anadahz> indeed enforcing for ~48 hours means that they most probably have a centralized system to propagate the DNS changes
13:54:17 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> in Malaysia and Cambodia basically it's gov directive to ISPs
13:54:25 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof thanks so much for leading initiatives across Southeast Asia to monitor censorship events! Your work is amazing and super important, and we hope we can address most of the points you raised in the new apps, to make future testing & coordination easier/better
13:54:57 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> I'll cover that in upcoming report how, the lists, including countries of the ISPs (ownership)
13:55:45 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> @agrabeli we could work together on this with the Cambodian digirights activists
13:55:56 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof We look forward to your upcoming report! In the meanwhile, let us know if we can provide support in terms of data analysis (other than the CSV file that I'll share today)
13:56:08 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> cool that will be helpful
13:56:57 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> @khairil.yusof it may also be worth updating the Cambodian test list with the sites that were in the (temporary) blocklist
13:57:01 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Next is a minor update on continuation of our dashboard project at Sinar and generating it from metadata from OONI API and test-lists
13:57:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> (in case they get blocked again)
13:57:17 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> and we come to that point :slightly_smiling_face:
13:58:02 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> I have a write up on this here: https://sinarproject.org/digital-rights/human-rights-internet-censorship-dashboards/joined-up-data-test-lists
13:58:27 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> https://sinarproject.org/digital-rights/human-rights-internet-censorship-dashboards/joined-up-data.png
13:59:08 <slacktopus> <agrabeli> (I have to run to another meeting, but it was great chatting with you all! Thanks for joining! :wave::))
13:59:17 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> cool
13:59:51 <slacktopus> <darkk> @khairil.yusof I second all the gratitudes! You're doing awesome stuff!
14:00:06 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Basically if there is enough data metadata in the test-lists for it to be useful for other groups such as media groups to also maintain it, then I can rope them in
14:00:11 <anadahz> if there is still a bit of time i would like to announce magma a new project that i have started working on
14:01:11 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> Sorry for taking so long, to wrap it up, I'm getting help of SEAPA regional media org to help me maintain all the NEWS category four Southeast Asia
14:01:19 <slacktopus> <khairil.yusof> @anadahz go ahead..
14:02:02 <anadahz> topic #3 Presentation of magma: a guide for network measurements and data analysis in risky environments (anadahz)
14:02:22 <anadahz> long text follows
14:03:47 <anadahz> magma: aims to build a research framework to people working on information
14:03:49 <anadahz> controls and network measurements. This framework will enable them to properly
14:03:51 <anadahz> structure an activity plan, to make informed choices regarding the required
14:03:53 <slacktopus> <hellais> We are running a little bit tight on time
14:03:53 <anadahz> tools (including ethical and security aspects), as well as to analyze the data
14:03:55 <anadahz> produced by such tools.
14:04:56 <slacktopus> <hellais> @anadahz This sounds great, thanks for sharing it!
14:05:27 <slacktopus> <hellais> We are running a little bit tight on time, but was there some particular aspect of this project that you wanted to discuss?
14:05:29 <anadahz> In this respect I would like to invite all of you that would like to conduct work/research on information controls and internet censorship and would like to get to know/understand better how to work with network measurements, OONI data, data analysis from other source, etc.. to contact me.  Happy to talk further about it in here (if time permits) or in private.
14:06:25 <anadahz> @hellais I tried to wrap it up as fast as possible, but given that the time is up people can contact me directly.
14:07:09 <slacktopus> <darkk> @anadahz I think it would be super useful to have some introduction or list of questions to answer. TBH, I don't quite understand what "research framework" is and I don't understand how I can help you with the project...
14:07:57 <slacktopus> <darkk> I feel like you want to have some interviews with people who do research to summarize their BCPs and mistakes, but maybe I don't get the idea :slightly_smiling_face:
14:08:17 <anadahz> @darkk: indeed I can go into details, I just don't want to keep people here if they want this meeting to ends.
14:09:34 <anadahz> first things first this project will try to improve the current methodology for people that don't speak or need a fast heads up when they are researching on topic related to internet censorship.
14:10:25 <anadahz> The end result will be a handbook or guide.
14:10:57 <slacktopus> <hellais> What is the “current methodology” and what do you mean by “don’t speak or need a fast heads up”?
14:11:05 <anadahz> and this result will be based merely on people's feedback
14:11:56 <anadahz> current methodology: whatever people use do conduct research on internet censorship
14:12:39 <anadahz> by people I mean the persons that are mostly not very familiar with network measurements
14:13:54 <slacktopus> <hellais> I see
14:13:55 <anadahz> don't speak or need a fast heads up: People that do not get basic network and other technical terms required to conduct research on internet censorship
14:14:33 <slacktopus> <hellais> If that is the case, I would probably second the suggestion @darkk gave of maybe starting with some sort of structured survey or interviews with your target audience to better understand what their needs are
14:14:54 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think the output of this sort of work would be useful to us too
14:15:04 <anadahz> I 'm currently working on a post to announce this project, but I 'll need to gather some feedback first.
14:16:37 <anadahz> Yes interviews will be helpful too, but on the current stage I will need to get some more feedback on the directions of this project, specifically in how much detail I should go.
14:18:08 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think interviews and surveys can probably help you answer that question
14:18:27 <anadahz> As many people in this channel have already a lot of knowledge about the necessary network terminology, but not for new comers that come from different disciplinces such as socio sciences and law.
14:19:03 <anadahz> *social sciences
14:19:29 <anadahz> Great then I will aim to get some interviews and surveys.
14:19:46 <slacktopus> <hellais> :+1:
14:20:11 <slacktopus> <hellais> I think we are done here. Thanks to everyone <here> for attending the meeting and see you around!
14:20:12 <anadahz> Is OONI interested in having an introducion blog post on the announcement of this project (magma)?
14:20:12 <slacktopus> <hellais> Ciao!
14:20:21 <hellais> #endmeeting