19:00:23 #startmeeting 19:00:23 Meeting started Wed Mar 21 19:00:23 2018 UTC. The chair is h01ger. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:23 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:31 Hello h0lger 19:00:37 I'm Mariana 19:00:44 #topic introductions / collecting the agenda 19:00:52 hi marianab, hi anxhelo 19:01:14 Anxhelo is our other designer and Mariana is helping us stay on track :) 19:01:22 * h01ger is obviously here :) (please say hi or some such too, if you are present and havent done so yet 19:01:24 ) 19:01:31 Elio: cool 19:02:55 so agenda is something like 1. introductions 2. status updates 3. work updates 4. discussion about those 5. any other business 6. next meeting 19:03:06 ?!? please comment :) 19:03:35 I guess I should say hi as well. Hi, Elio here, logo designer and will further help with the style guide via OTF and Ura 19:03:49 Sounds good to me 19:04:19 * h01ger gives it 3-5 more min so others can comment 19:04:31 Hello, I'm Anxhelo, a designer at Ura and will help with the project :) 19:04:32 * h01ger looks at https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds 19:05:10 o/ raboof here, interested in applying r-b to java/scala builds 19:05:57 So Identihub is software we developed ourselves to make assets sharing easier 19:06:02 It's AGPL 19:06:24 and on our infrastructure, but it can be self-hosted anywhere 19:06:47 Thought it might be a bit more convenient than the wiki for dynamic feedback rounds 19:07:04 * vagrantc waves 19:08:01 might want to mention the topic of the meeting somewhere so the meetbot logs it 19:08:30 Hi @rskikuli? 19:08:34 rskikuli_ 19:08:40 raboof: we're having a meeting currently about the r-b logo.. please lets talk about java/scala later 19:09:02 Hello @Elio 19:09:04 #info meeting about the reproducible builds project logo and styleguide 19:09:15 hi vagrantc, hi rskikuli_ 19:09:20 Hello Everyone! 19:09:25 heya 19:09:49 Okay, I think the whole Ura team is here now heh 19:10:18 Great! 19:10:33 yay 19:10:43 Okay, shall we? 19:10:47 yeah 19:10:56 #topic status updates 19:11:37 Elio: i think you should summarize the otf news 19:11:44 For those who missed the last updates: OTF is funding our work for a full fledged styleguide including logo and CSS. That means Reproducible Builds doesn't need to have any budget set aside for this 19:12:18 This means that we will implement a live style guide for RB, which includes the logo and basic CSS 19:12:35 It's in a similar fashion to the Tor styleguide: styleguide.torproject.org 19:12:45 (we are still working out technicalities) 19:13:12 #info OTF is funding Ura's work on a full fledged styleguide including logo and CSS for r-b 19:13:19 Deciding on the logo is the first step, as that includes deciding on the icon, typography, and colors. Which would be the majority of the information needed for creating the style guide 19:13:22 & yay! :) 19:14:12 While we want to get this right and have time set aside to talk with you, the community on getting this done, we should also set a timeline to set expectations for everyone and avoid bikeshedding 19:15:04 I hope that by the end of this meeting we have a clearer vision of the logo direction 19:15:04 what timeline do you have in mind? we discussed using a "turn-based timeline with 3 turns" before 19:15:26 Can you explain what that is? 19:15:34 Ah iterations you mean 19:15:35 * h01ger sadly doest have that hope to be honest, unless more reproducible builds folks show up :/ 19:15:39 yeah 19:15:54 Yeah, exactly 19:15:58 Elio: what timeline did you have in mind? 3 months? half a year? 4 weeks? 19:16:46 Which means that we will have a decision in the next meeting ideally. Because bikeshedding wouldn't be useful for anyone of us. 19:17:06 We are thinking about April 19:17:27 Because we can fully dedicate our time to this. And keeps the iterations fresh 19:17:33 part of the iteration based workflow was providing work updates before the meeting, i think if https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds would have been sent to the list 24 or 48h ago, participation would be higher. but then, i also forgot to send a simple meeting reminder to the list... 19:18:02 * h01ger adds "process / timeline" to the agenda 19:18:07 #topic work updates 19:18:13 https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds 19:18:14 Yeah, I just got the notification today 19:18:18 is Elio's latest work 19:18:36 From what I see, only 3 r-b folks are here, right? 19:19:10 * h01ger just created a todo for himself "send reminder 2 days before the next date" 19:19:33 Elio: yeah, or less 19:19:59 * h01ger likes https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds as whole / demo 19:20:09 We should really make it clear how consensus will work on your side 19:20:11 the fonts are available in debian main in stable, right? 19:20:28 Elio: lets talk about this in a sec.. 19:20:30 Because if there is not a lot of participation, it could basically be just your opinion mattering here 19:20:44 Good question. they are OFL fonts 19:21:06 i think we want fonts which are in debian stable main 19:21:16 Where can I find that list? 19:21:25 anxhelo, you know if they are in Debian Stable? 19:21:33 apt-cache search $fontname 19:21:53 I don't really know 19:21:55 Yeah I'm not on Debian right now 19:22:07 Debian is rather conservative on those 19:22:12 and I'm on Fedora so can't check 19:22:19 but there should be a list online 19:22:27 i think we want fonts which are in debian main, stable or unstable, we dont care 19:22:33 packages.debian.org/FONTNAME 19:22:52 though you might have to fiddle 19:22:56 sources.debian.org and then search for known filenames 19:23:02 even better 19:23:42 #info we prefer fonts which are in debian main, stable or unstable, we dont care. else they must have a free licence 19:23:54 #topic timeline / process 19:24:50 * h01ger thinks deciding by april is a good goal. regarding process, i think we need to move this to mail now and then have another meeting in 1-3 weeks 19:24:54 https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=fonts-&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all 19:25:18 Well, we only use OFL Free fonts anyway 19:25:35 but I don't think Source Sans Pro or Montserrat is in Debian packages 19:25:41 I can see Lato though 19:25:46 Anyway, we can make that work 19:25:50 Elio: cool, but please lets move on. (and discuss this after the meeting) 19:26:09 re: timeline / process: /me thinks deciding by april is a good goal. regarding process, i think we need to move this to mail now and then have another meeting in 1-3 weeks 19:26:41 i'm not really sure how we shall decide except based on rough consensus & people not objecing / running away 19:26:41 I'd be cool to do another meeting in a week 19:27:04 So we can keep iterations fresh 19:27:20 yeah 19:27:24 * h01ger too 19:27:59 So we can do the mail communication right again 19:28:05 * h01ger nods 19:28:23 other thoughts? 19:28:23 Meeting 28th March, where we will decide for another meeting to take a final decision 19:28:28 Sounds good? 19:28:49 a meeting to decide on a next meeting date? i dont think you mean this, so please clarify :) 19:29:17 (besides that. sounds great. just i'd like to move it to 18 UTC due to european summertime) 19:29:30 Hah, I suppose we decide on the meeting afterwards, in the next meeting 19:29:36 18 UTC sounds good 19:30:32 But I hope that we have a clear direction by the next meeting and only a few tweaks will be needed. It's very easy to end up in circles and the end result won't be better necessarily 19:31:03 * h01ger nods 19:31:07 18UTC is good for me most days 19:32:06 #agreed we take this to email and will have another irc meeting today in a week, so march 28th, at 18 UTC 19:32:14 same for me 19:32:56 sounds good 19:32:59 #agreed we aim to finalize our logo decision for the meeting after the next one (unless next week everybody will happy, because we'll have a great mailinglist discussion and Elio and friends will provide cool updates til then) 19:33:30 Sounds solid 19:33:31 #info (this was more hinting on that we need to have this discussion between us, r-b folks.) 19:33:52 #topic discussion about https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds#/ 19:34:16 * h01ger likes that this is "more complete demo" 19:34:38 the first thing i noticed is adding colors made me like the options more 19:34:46 * h01ger likes 2 and 4 and maybe 6 19:35:00 vagrants, indeed, hence I added them 19:35:06 Hang on, let me att them to the palette 19:35:24 but as black-and-white only, they look a bit blocky to me 19:35:56 the ones with something in the middle look very busy 19:36:04 and then, looking at https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds/Logo again now, i must say, that also compared to the demo, i know like #8 from the wiki more, because it includes "R B". those logos on the demo feel a bit "arbitrary", by adding R-B there is an immediate connection to our project 19:37:09 I agree with that. we should keep it clean 19:37:13 Added color palette 19:37:28 shoving letters into a logo can be a bit difficult, though, no? 19:37:36 I wouldn't do that 19:37:38 for it to work at various scaling 19:37:47 The wordmark will be visible in 99% of mediums 19:37:58 You wouldn't fit in RB in a favicon 19:38:09 Elio: then please provide more demos with the words next to it 19:38:13 The icon itself should be ICONic (pun intended) 19:38:24 But the wordmark is separate 19:38:30 Focus only on the icon for now 19:38:40 Hence I did 2 examples for the feel, don't take it literally 19:38:45 We can mix and remix those 19:39:11 Elio: from our last meeting, i recalled you saing the individual elements should be roughly the same size? as compared to the logo wiki ones with arrows and dots of very different sizes ... the wiki ones look more elegant to me 19:39:34 Elio: i think for us to decide on a logo it will be helpful if you provide examples where < Elio> The wordmark will be visible in 99% of mediums 19:40:10 Okay, let me explain this again. A logo, or an identity, is not a brick which is set in stone 19:40:12 It's flexible 19:40:16 It can be an icon 19:40:22 it can be an icon with a wordmark horizontally 19:40:28 It can be an icon with a wordmark vertically 19:40:34 inverted, positive 19:40:40 That all is still the same logo 19:40:45 and the same brand 19:40:55 stretched and distorted in various ways? :) 19:40:56 sure 19:41:08 stretched and distorted? 19:41:20 Let me add the examples now 19:41:23 sure 19:41:25 just for us to decide, i think the logo should be shown in as many of such settings as possible 19:41:34 just for us to decide, i think the logos should be shown in as many of such settings as possible 19:44:20 so, i guess i'm having a hard time understanding how to integrate this stuff ... i can mostly give my gut reaction, but i don't really have any design experience and obviously there are worlds of information i don't have 19:45:03 Elio: regarding discussing https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds#/ - can you 'version' this or otherwise make stable? i was just thinking thats it might be a bit difficult to discuss a 'changing thing' - maybe i'm wrong.. 19:45:04 but i suspect i can live with just about anything, really. 19:45:26 Yep, I can create categories for every meeting maybe? 19:45:47 yeah 19:46:32 https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds#/view/icon/element/376 19:46:34 Added this 19:46:41 I quite like this iteration honestly 19:46:45 cool 19:46:54 It would look good on a sticker as well 19:47:12 * vagrantc is partial to the diamon-oriented variants 19:47:18 yup 19:47:25 lets move on 19:47:30 #topic any other business 19:48:05 * h01ger really likes icon/element/376 (except that "builds" is a different fontstyle than 'reproducible' 19:48:07 ) 19:48:24 It's not a different style, but different weight 19:48:30 We could go with the same as well 19:48:40 * h01ger doesnt have anything else to add and is happy how the meeting went and already put meeting and reminder 2 days earlier in his calendar 19:48:52 Elio: thats what i ment (weight) 19:49:17 "it looks different somehow" :) 19:49:21 or at make "reproducible" the bolder weight 19:49:28 s# at # 19:49:32 s# at ## 19:49:59 Okay, so the styleguide will be created on our infrastracture (either GitHub or GitLab) for development purposes 19:50:07 Once it's ready, I suppose you folks can migrate it 19:50:24 sounds good 19:50:59 From what I gather, you are very concerned about the logo, but not so much about the style guide, right? 19:51:30 well, adopting the style guide will be more work ;) 19:51:31 So we will move with the styleguide implementation and when the logo is ready, there will be a good chunk of work done 19:51:47 but yes.. 19:51:52 the style guide is basically some color, css, and .. ? 19:52:10 vagrantc ideally we want to make it similar to styleguide.torproject.org 19:52:24 Maybe a bit more lightweight 19:52:36 For visual assets, Identihub can be used as well 19:52:40 lightweight as in less fleshed out ... or? 19:52:56 I don't think you need as much material as Tor, that is 19:54:56 i think the icon is the most approachable thing for most of us, and maybe we're not sophisticated enough to really argue to much about the styleguide :) 19:55:16 which might make it harder ... 19:55:21 A style guide is more technical and practical 19:55:21 * vagrantc shrugs 19:55:44 I think the styleguide is easier than the logo discussion honestly 19:56:06 It's quite technical once you decided on the logo, color and typography 19:56:17 the logo involves synthesizing everyone's internal experience 19:56:35 That sounds dramatic but yeah, basically that 19:56:43 But on the other hand also making it approachable to new people 19:56:57 You don't want to make it appealing only to you, right? But also to the outside 19:57:00 seems like this was a meeting 19:57:04 of course :) 19:57:16 That's why you asked me, to do the job of the audience 19:57:19 a piece of visual identity that is recognizable 19:57:32 While still keeping the internal team happy 19:57:46 Anyway, I think this was good and fruitful 19:57:48 yes, we don't want something that clashes with the existing folks 19:58:00 Elio: thanks for taking it on 19:58:02 I suppose most of the people want to stick with blueish colors? 19:58:13 this is the last topic, as the last topic is "next meeting" and we already agreed on this 19:58:23 * h01ger will end this meeting in a minute 19:58:33 Elio: i like the green elements too 19:58:44 Elio: i think blue is almost too safe ... but maybe that's fine 19:58:56 Okay, but cold colors focused maybe 19:59:10 * h01ger is happy with this meeting as well, despite little participation from our side - and thanks for you all from Ura being here! 19:59:27 the current page is blue.. 19:59:33 #topic next meeing 19:59:36 #topic next meeting 20:00:00 #agreed the next meeting to discuss the r-b logo will be held here on march 28th, 18 UTC 20:00:10 thank you all for attending! 20:00:12 * h01ger waves 20:00:16 * vagrantc thanks all around 20:00:37 Thanks folks :) 20:00:51 #endmeeting