18:00:31 #startmeeting reproducible-builds logo #3 18:00:31 Meeting started Wed Mar 28 18:00:31 2018 UTC. The chair is h01ger. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:31 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:54 #topic introductions / say hi if you are there / defining the agenda 18:00:58 so, hi! 18:01:11 last meetings log is at http://meetbot.debian.net/reproducible-builds/2018/reproducible-builds.2018-03-21-19.00.html 18:01:56 Hello 18:01:56 my agenda proposal: 1. intro / agenda definition 2. status updates (if any) 3. discussion about the current drafts 4. timeline / process 5. AOB 6. next meeting 18:02:10 * h01ger pings Elio and ElioQoshi[m] as we need you 18:02:13 hi anxhelo 18:02:34 Hi 18:02:52 Do we need introductions? Are there any new folks here? 18:03:57 its just a standard topic, there might be new people… and "old" people should say $hi too, so we now they are there 18:04:06 and hi Elio ! 18:04:55 Since other people might read the logs as well: Elio here, founder of Ura and helping RB with the new styleguide and logo 18:05:00 I work with Anxhelo 18:05:05 Hi! 18:05:12 Hola Faux 18:05:33 agenda looks good? 18:05:39 Yep 18:05:46 cool 18:05:49 Hello, Anxhelo here, designer and frontend at Ura, working with Elio :) 18:05:50 * h01ger gives people 4 for minutes to show up 18:06:08 #agreed agenda: 1. intro / agenda definition 2. status updates (if any) 3. discussion about the current drafts 4. timeline / process 5. AOB 6. next meeting 18:06:24 Hello Faux 18:06:33 Hello everyone :) 18:06:36 * Faux will soon be in a tunnel. Nothing to add, carry on! 18:06:51 I'm Mariana from Ura too 18:07:36 Status updates? 18:10:07 #topic status updates 18:10:16 hi marianab 18:10:26 * h01ger doesnt have any updates 18:10:50 I added a proposal which was suggested on the mailing list 18:10:55 Also added 2 more variants 18:11:08 You can find them on Identihub 18:11:16 https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds 18:11:39 No other updates from me 18:11:57 * h01ger looks 18:12:48 is there a way to add numbers/ids to the proposals, so they are easier to refer to? 18:13:32 else i need to make my browser window very thin, so i get one column and thus the correct ordering :) 18:15:43 No, sorry 18:16:12 * h01ger can work with a very thin window 18:16:16 I think it's pretty straightforward to refer to them as 1,2,3,4 18:16:27 #topic discussion about the current drafts 18:18:29 * h01ger likes the 2nd and 4th example from meeting #2 and probably all three from the mailing list feedback section. but just the logos, i almost dont like any of the writings next to them ;) maybe the font from example#1 and feedback#3 18:19:45 That's great feedback 18:19:53 We can alter the wordmarks 18:21:31 yeah. i think the wordmarks are helpful to get a feel for the look, but i think we can and should first agree on a logo and then on the wordmark (which will be much simpler to agree on) 18:21:41 The font of feedback 3 is the same 18:21:47 Yep 18:22:22 * h01ger wonders if anybody else is here to discuss those current drafts... which directly make me think about the next topic, but i'd suggest we wait 5min now for more feedback 18:23:03 Let me try Lato 18:23:08 Debian Stable has Lato 18:23:43 :) assuming thats a font 18:27:10 Yep 18:29:57 Just added it 18:31:19 #topic timeline / process 18:32:51 as barely anyone except me and Ura people join these meetings and there has been no uproar on the mailing list, i assume that people are more or less content with the drafts - or not paying attention 18:34:03 so i would suggest we do a "simple" vote (probably using the condorcet system, which is also used for debian voting 18:34:09 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condorcet_method 18:34:53 Agreed with that 18:35:38 Although voting is very easy to do and should someone who spends 2min for that have the same votes as you who spent a lot of time with this? 18:35:45 and everybody who has commits in notes.git or blog.git or works at ura gets a^w to vote (everybody has as many votes as there are proposal. basically everybody ranks the candidates and then there is some algorithm that (potentially) chooses a better winner than just the majority 18:36:24 Okay makes sense 18:36:42 people who have commits in notes.git and blog.git are contributors. all contributors are (somewhat) equal 18:37:01 i meant: notes.git *or* blog.git 18:37:30 What are we voting on? Logo plus wordmark and colors? 18:37:41 Or only logo and we determine the font and color later? 18:37:44 just logo i'd say 18:37:49 to have less variations to vote on 18:37:58 Then that would require another vote later on I suppose 18:37:59 Yep 18:38:11 FWIW we've had bad experience at Tails with a vote-based decision-making process to pick our logo. Nowadays I think that contributors should be allowed to veto what they cannot live with (it's a matter of identity) but then designers should make the call. Sorry I was going to leave AFK so cannot elaborate right now. 18:38:22 maybe vote, or mabye we can agree on wordmark and colors without voting 18:38:30 Hi intrigeri, good to you here :) 18:38:38 good to see you here* 18:38:54 hi… and bye! 18:38:56 hi intrigeri. i think we had opportunites to veto and frankly i wouldnt veto any of the current drafts… 18:39:00 and bye! :) 18:39:18 and hey, maybe only 3 people will vote 18:40:32 Okay, so I will add logos you suggest with the blue colors and the same font 18:40:35 * h01ger can commit to have "the voting system" up in a week, maybe i manage over the easterweekend but i wont promise… so we would start voting on april 5th (or so) at latest and then stop voting a week later 18:41:00 What system are you setting up? 18:41:14 a wiki page explaining the options and a mail explaining the voting system 18:41:27 https://demo.identihub.co/project/reproducible-builds is not suitable for that 18:41:56 Well, if you are going into granular voting processes, of course not 18:42:06 its just an hour work or so, but i'm unlikely to have that hour in the 6 days 18:42:16 I think it's a bit of over engineering but you know what's best for your side 18:42:24 Elio: no, its just not clear which is draft #3 on that page 18:42:31 or #2 18:42:57 Because it's a WIP. I can delete everything and have final options on there 18:43:03 * h01ger thinks if we do voting it should be simple and understandable 18:43:59 Our definitions of simplicity differs, and Wiki might be simple for some folks, but it's not the right place for design feedback in my view 18:44:21 i wouldnt mind if you'd do this… but then each logo needs to have a text next to it saying "logo draft $X" (where $X is an integer) 18:44:22 But you can call it instead that we will use r-b infrastructure, with what people are used to, which is another thing 18:44:37 its not about design feedback but about picking options 18:44:56 That's not a problem also 18:45:12 Let me know what logos I should set up and I can do it now 18:45:35 all those from examples meeting #2, mailinglist feedback and meeting #3 18:45:40 remove directions 18:45:46 remove colors 18:45:49 remove fonts 18:45:59 add an id to each and every draft 18:46:09 Sure 18:46:30 #agreed we'll vote using (simple) condorcet 18:46:51 #agreed h01ger will prepare a mail explaining how to vote 18:47:01 #agreed elio will prepare a page with the options 18:47:16 #agreed voting should start no later than april 6th 2018 18:47:35 #agreed voting should end on friday, the 13th of april 2018 18:48:06 #agreed after that we'll need to decide on the wordmark, colors and font. we hope we can do this in a meeting or via mail and dont need more voting 18:48:34 Elio: please ping me here or send me a short mail once that page is done 18:48:39 next topic? ;) 18:48:58 Yep, sounds good 18:49:20 #topic any other business 18:50:18 * h01ger is unhappy that noone else from r-b is here. i'll kill you if you dare to hate or even criticise the logo ;) 18:50:48 any other rants or comments? ;) 18:51:41 Haha 18:52:01 I think mailing list comments are helpful too 18:52:08 As it's asycnhronous 18:52:13 But also that was limited 18:52:30 I lost track of the conversation when it became quite technical when talking about the icons though 18:53:39 right, i was happy about the mailinglist communication too... 18:54:06 #topic next meeting 18:54:14 sometime after friday the 13th 18:55:01 how about wednesday, the 18th of april at 18 utc? that should give you time to prepare new drafts with wordmark/color variations based on the logo chosen 18:56:20 Once the logo is chosen, the variations don't need time 18:56:31 As we did huge amount of exploration already 18:56:42 but 18th is fine for digestion 18:57:05 yeah. and weekend is not so good for irc meetings, so i thought staying with wednesday is kinda nice 18:57:11 It's a bit tiresome for us as we are in the mood to design and then we need to settle back to wait for the next meeting 18:57:18 But that's the thing about consensu I guess 18:58:06 yeah. i do understand your "annoyance" about having to wait… 18:58:08 I'd like to get the draft of the styleguide finished by end of April in any case 18:58:17 please do! 18:58:24 so… 18:58:40 #agreed next meeting: wednesday, 18th of april 2018, 18 UTC, here 18:59:00 thank you all for attending and for your work and patience, @Ura! :) 19:00:16 Our pleasure, we look forward to see this see the light of day 19:00:32 Also, if you want some free sticker credits, we have a partnership with Stickermule 19:00:41 Once we choose the logo :) 19:00:47 yes! :) 19:00:54 Extra stickers for those who give feedback on the mailing list :p 19:01:08 #info if we want some free sticker credits, Ura has a partnership with Stickermule... 19:01:11 hehe 19:01:18 i watched annihilation last night so i dont dare to think about 'reproducible' logos atm 19:01:27 *g* 19:01:36 * h01ger waves good-bye 19:01:38 #endmeeting