13:59:38 <karsten> #startmeeting measurement team meeting
13:59:38 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Sep 17 13:59:38 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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13:59:53 <karsten> hi! who's here for the meeting?
13:59:56 <Sebastian> hi
14:00:03 <karsten> hi Sebastian!
14:01:19 <asn_> dgoulet: ok i delete some code to make it compile. now i can use your data structures.
14:01:21 <karsten> let's start to collect agenda items while we're waiting for others to join us.
14:01:43 <karsten> a) briefly talk about the roadmap
14:01:54 <karsten> b) another round of 1-1-1 task exchange
14:02:39 * isabela is around
14:02:46 <karsten> hi isabela!
14:04:06 <karsten> hi SeanSaito! (you're here for the meeting, right?)
14:04:13 <SeanSaito> hi Karsten, yes!
14:04:17 <karsten> great!
14:04:26 <karsten> isabela, SeanSaito: any agenda items we should add?
14:04:38 <karsten> 14:02:20 < karsten> a) briefly talk about the roadmap
14:04:39 <karsten> 14:02:30 < karsten> b) another round of 1-1-1 task exchange
14:04:40 <karsten> is what we have
14:04:56 <SeanSaito> nothing from me.
14:05:23 <karsten> ok.
14:05:36 <karsten> let's start with a) then. we can always add a c), d), etc. later.
14:05:52 <karsten> here's the latest roadmap draft: https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/measurement-roadmap.pdf
14:06:08 <clv> hi! here for measurement meeting
14:06:09 <karsten> it contains feedback from many people (look at the number of authors..)
14:06:12 <karsten> hi clv!
14:06:39 <karsten> my plan is to use this roadmap for two sessions in berlin and make it better in/after berlin.
14:07:18 <karsten> I imagine one session would be about products. we'd think about major missing features in these products and prioritize them among all products.
14:07:58 <karsten> and the other session would be about users and requirements. we'd think about the user groups and what their needs are. the goal would be to find things we're currently missing, or things we have that we hardly need.
14:08:39 <karsten> I'd say if people here have any feedback that we should incorporate before berlin, be sure to send it to me by the beginning of next week.
14:09:02 <karsten> otherwise I'll try to incorporate it after berlin.
14:09:08 <karsten> how does this sound?
14:09:34 <clv> sounds good
14:09:51 <karsten> let me also mention the git url...
14:10:08 <karsten> https://gitweb.torproject.org/user/karsten/tech-reports.git/log/?h=measurement-roadmap
14:10:32 <SeanSaito> sounds good
14:10:33 <clv> I read the doc, and I was thinking of maybe adding something to "volunteers" /relay and bridge operators/
14:11:17 <karsten> clv: great! want to send me a patch?
14:11:36 <clv> okay
14:11:49 <karsten> cool. happy to add more stuff.
14:11:57 <karsten> it's not really complete yet.
14:12:30 <clv> yeah, I noticed that
14:12:39 <clv> but the doc in general makes a lot of sense
14:12:44 <clv> it was a good read !
14:13:06 <karsten> glad to hear. I really hope it will help us decide what to work on in the next year or so.
14:13:41 <Yawning> one thing I had an idea for was to do a TorDNSel rewrite
14:13:51 <Yawning> (but EBUSY and what not, don't count on me to have time to do it)
14:14:21 <karsten> Yawning: want to phrase your idea in a short paragraph, so that we can add it to section 2 under TorDNSEL?
14:14:32 <karsten> page 6.
14:14:57 <Yawning> "Yawning may, time and motivation permitting, rewrite it to not suck, in Go"
14:15:20 <Yawning> where "not suck" is highly subjective
14:15:58 <karsten> I'll phrase that as "Rewrite it in a more reasonable programming language." and include it. thanks. :)
14:16:25 <isabela> karsten: sorry i lost internet for a moment
14:16:25 <Yawning> nb: not commiting to doing it, I know how I will do it, but ti'll take a week or so that I currently don't have :(
14:16:38 <karsten> okay, if people have more feedback, please send it to me at any time.
14:16:46 <Yawning> if it ever breaks badly to where it's needed, I can expedite it though
14:17:10 <karsten> Yawning: no worries, we're at a stage where we collect useful ideas. no commitments yet.
14:17:29 * ilv read the doc too and thinks he learned a lot of the measurement ecosystem, nice work!
14:17:38 <karsten> isabela: did you lose backlog? should I send you that?
14:17:51 <karsten> glad to hear, ilv. :)
14:18:13 <isabela> karsten: no i am reading it
14:18:19 <karsten> isabela: great.
14:18:29 <karsten> hi tomlurge (assuming you're here for the meeting).
14:18:54 <karsten> okay, I'd say let's move on to b).
14:19:00 <tomlurge> hi together, sorry - i just came home
14:19:01 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/O6TCKaTQ2j
14:19:12 <karsten> that's the pad for: 1-1-1 task exchange: you get 1 minute to describe a task that would take somebody else roughly 1 hour and that they will do for you within 1 week (review a document, write some analysis code, fix a small bug, etc.; better come prepared to get the most out of this; give 1, take 1)
14:19:13 <Sebastian> I have a new task idea. I'm interested in how I would analyze the following:
14:20:09 <Sebastian> When a new Tor version is released, how long does it take for 25, 50, 75% of all relays to update? How often do relays update in general? Is there an effect when for example debian updates its packages?
14:20:47 <Sebastian> where an update means you're running, then you go down, then within a few minutes you're back up again with a changed version.
14:20:50 <karsten> sounds very interesting. it might be that you won't get all those answers, but you might get suggestions for how to get them answered.
14:21:47 <karsten> want to add it to the pad?
14:22:06 <karsten> others, please think of more tasks for the pad.
14:23:08 <karsten> clv: btw, I just sent you some feedback on erebus, which was your task from last week.
14:23:39 <karsten> clv: I'll cross it out as done, unless you disagree?
14:23:49 <clv> karsten: thanks!
14:23:51 <clv> agree
14:24:06 <karsten> great :)
14:24:20 <clv> tomlurge: hi! still pending my email reply. I'll do it today
14:24:35 <tomlurge> clv: cool!
14:25:02 <clv> (I was going to yesterday, but I happened to experience a really strong earthquake D: )
14:25:13 <tomlurge> oh, wow…
14:25:21 <isabela> Sebastian: i like your task
14:25:36 <karsten> isabela: want to take it?
14:25:53 <isabela> karsten: sorry, i am interested in the results
14:26:02 <karsten> ah ok :)
14:26:12 <karsten> well, you told me about your interest in R a while back. ;)
14:26:21 <isabela> :)
14:26:44 <tomlurge> the first question could be answered with visionion data (if the data was available already…)
14:27:48 <Sebastian> isabela: thanks :)
14:28:06 <karsten> tomlurge: would you want to take the task? again, I think it's more about suggesting a way to find out the answer than to actually find it out.
14:28:53 <karsten> (I guess this task requires crunching some numbers and takes much longer than 1 hour. but having someone else's brain for an hour might help Sebastian to think about things he'd otherwise miss.)
14:30:39 <tomlurge> karsten: no, i only know the hourly data sets you provided (and that I asked for). i have no idea where to start with the update problem (a few minutes downtime etc)
14:30:40 <karsten> more tasks, anyone?
14:30:49 <karsten> tomlurge: ok.
14:30:57 <tomlurge> sorry…
14:31:11 <karsten> oh, no worries at all.
14:31:45 <tomlurge> … but i’m reluctant to take tasks that open a whole new can of worms for me. enough open cans around here right now…
14:32:54 <karsten> understood. again, no worries. but let me explain this task exchange a bit more: if someone picks a task and finds out after 15 minutes, 45 minutes, 90 minutes that they won't make good progress on it,
14:32:59 <karsten> they can hand it back.
14:33:20 <tomlurge> clv: btw: work on the task in any way you like. i think I’ve got the problem nearly solved myself but I’m very interested in what questions or ideas you will come up
14:33:29 <karsten> so, I'll take Sebastian's task if nobody else wants it.
14:33:30 <tomlurge> karsten: right
14:34:14 <karsten> there, taken.
14:34:51 <clv> tomlurge: okay. I read most of your repo yesterday. A few docs left and I'll ready to phrase you a couple of questions ;)
14:34:51 <karsten> okay, do we have a c) on the agenda?
14:35:04 <karsten> anything we should discuss today?
14:35:52 <karsten> oh, I have something.
14:35:54 <tomlurge> i added a session about visualization to the berlin agenda. does the description make sense to anybody?
14:36:13 <karsten> tomlurge: link?
14:36:30 <tomlurge> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2015SummerDevMeeting#Who
14:36:48 <tomlurge> well, just below “who” actually ;-)
14:37:05 <tomlurge> the last in teh list of session proposals
14:38:22 <karsten> tomlurge: makes sense to me. that's quite related to the users/requirements part of the roadmap discussion, in particular the for the user group "general public".
14:38:37 <karsten> right?
14:38:54 <karsten> happy to have an own session for that.
14:38:59 <tomlurge> roadmap discussion? you mean your paper?
14:39:09 <karsten> yes.
14:39:17 <karsten> section 3 there.
14:39:31 <karsten> page 9.
14:39:46 <tomlurge> ok. yes. is teh paper meant to be finished befor the meeting or afterwards?
14:40:01 <karsten> I think it will benefit a lot from the meeting. so, afterwards.
14:40:20 * Sebastian has to leave, have a great rest of the meeting everyone
14:40:21 <Sebastian> thanks
14:40:29 <karsten> thanks for joining us, Sebastian!
14:40:55 <karsten> okay, let's move on to the c) I just came up with.
14:40:59 <tomlurge> okay. happy to take input on the session also with respect to helping the paper
14:41:12 <karsten> tomlurge: great!
14:41:17 <karsten> "Redesign and Branding Unification of All of the Websites" on the same page.
14:41:42 <karsten> we have quite a few websites developed by the measurement team.
14:42:27 <karsten> I'm just mentioning that session, so that people are aware of it, think about it, and be ready to contribute to it when we meet in berlin.
14:42:46 <karsten> it was actually isis who suggested it, based on a short discussion with me.
14:43:29 <karsten> that's all for c).
14:43:41 <karsten> anything else we should talk about today?
14:44:12 <clv> karsten: do you mean redsgn of all measurement-websites ?
14:44:21 <clv> or websites in general
14:44:30 <karsten> well, all *.tp.o websites.
14:44:36 <karsten> which wouldn't happen at once, obviously.
14:44:45 <isabela> karsten: there is a proposal to merge sites too right
14:44:46 <karsten> this is more about having a plan for doing it, and then doing it one by one.
14:45:03 <karsten> isabela: true! merge, split, whatever makes most sense.
14:45:08 <isabela> there are 2 sessions i am proposing focus on torproject.org
14:45:10 <isabela> specifically
14:45:25 <isabela> (me sent to tor-assistants list)
14:46:08 <karsten> I think there's much to talk about when it comes to .tp.o websites.
14:46:21 <karsten> and www.tp.o is the most important.
14:46:48 <karsten> but it would be great to have a plan for the others, too.
14:46:59 <tomlurge> sorry, but what is a tp.o website?
14:47:12 <karsten> ah, any subdomain of torproject.org.
14:47:18 <tomlurge> okay
14:47:27 <karsten> short for torproject.org.
14:47:53 <clv> I'm not attending dev-meeting on berlin, but I'd be very interesting on collaborating with website-related tasks
14:48:08 <clv> I happened to have a proposal on static websites
14:48:15 <clv> (already written)
14:48:42 <clv> it might be useful in some way I think, for website redesign
14:48:55 <karsten> clv: sad to hear you're not coming. but I hope there will be notes on trac after the session.
14:49:02 <tomlurge> “redesign and branding unification” sounds like (endless discussions about) aesthetics. “merge, split etc” sounds like information architecture.
14:49:18 <tomlurge> clv: i’ll attend that. i can make note sfor you
14:49:31 <karsten> clv: want to share that proposal on one of the mailing lists?
14:49:42 <karsten> tomlurge: sounds awesome!
14:49:49 <tomlurge> what???
14:49:56 <tomlurge> ;-)
14:50:03 <clv> tomlurge: thans! my brother is attending too (ilv)
14:50:08 <karsten> the offer to redesign all websites, err, take notes.
14:50:19 <oioioioioioi> type "/msg chanserv access #tor-internal list"
14:50:37 <tomlurge> =.[  ( … running away as fast as …)
14:50:41 <clv> karsten: will do
14:50:50 <karsten> okay, cool. anything else for today?
14:50:52 <oioioioioioi> "-ChanServ- 25: NSA MEMBER"
14:51:40 <oioioioioioi> that is your moderation for tor chans
14:52:51 <clv> karsten: which mailing list would be appropriate for sending this proposal?
14:53:29 <karsten> fine question. maybe tor-dev@? I'm not always good at picking mailing lists, but I often default to that one.
14:53:56 <tomlurge> tor web?
14:54:31 <tomlurge> this one: Tor Website Team <www-team@lists.torproject.org>
14:54:50 <clv> right!
14:54:52 <clv> thanks
14:54:55 <karsten> sure, or that one. and if nobody replies, try again on tor-dev@.
14:55:05 <clv> yeah, sounds good
14:55:27 <tomlurge> www-team was middle to high volume for a short period of time and then went dead
14:55:42 <tomlurge> so, better cc tor-dev ;-)
14:55:53 <karsten> ah, cross posting bad.
14:56:19 <karsten> anyway, should we end this meeting and talk again next week?
14:56:41 <clv> sure, have a nice week!
14:56:46 <clv> bye
14:56:53 <tomlurge> bye!
14:56:56 <karsten> thanks for coming, everyone!
14:56:59 <karsten> #endmeeting