14:59:59 <karsten> #startmeeting metrics team
14:59:59 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Nov 17 14:59:59 2016 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:59 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:00 <isabela> !
15:00:02 <karsten> hi everyone!
15:00:03 <isabela> vixe maria
15:00:06 <RaBe> hi!
15:00:07 <isabela> :D
15:00:23 <iwakeh> ¡ola!
15:00:34 <karsten> here's the agenda pad where we're collecting topics for today: https://pad.riseup.net/p/3M7VyrTVgjlF
15:00:52 <karsten> hi RaBe!
15:01:36 <isabela> (agenda looks good :)
15:01:57 <karsten> RaBe: I would have expected a different handle, but I strongly suspect you're our web designer! :)
15:02:13 <RaBe> indeed :)
15:02:19 <linda> :)
15:02:22 <isabela> hehe
15:02:31 <karsten> great. shall we do a quick introduction round?
15:02:41 <karsten> while we're waiting for people to add even more agenda items?
15:02:52 <linda> Sounds good.
15:02:59 <karsten> and let's use this fine feature of irc where we can all speak at the same time.
15:03:19 <karsten> everyone at this meeting, just say a sentence what you're doing here, if you want to. :)
15:03:36 <linda> I'm Linda, the UX lead. I'm here to help make your life easier. Hopefully, to give you the instructions you need to do your work (wireframes, style guides, etc.).
15:03:54 * karsten is working on many things related to metrics, including this fine UX project where we're redesigning the Tor Metrics website. and the other things on the agenda pad.
15:04:18 * isabela is Tor project manager and someone who works with linda on ux stuff.. i also use metrics a lot and have helped a bit with this ux review/redesign of the sie
15:04:50 <RaBe> i'm raphael, a web developer who'll try to do his best on your metrics page :)
15:05:04 <linda> ٩(^‿^)۶
15:05:04 * iwakeh iwakeh, Metrics Team, working on - I think by now - all Java projects.
15:05:11 <isabela> \o/
15:05:13 <hiro> I am Silvia. I have started only a few weeks ago. I am here picking tasks around :) at the moment helping the metrics team with some documentation and some admin stuff
15:05:28 <karsten> cool, that's everyone who said something during this meeting, right?
15:05:39 * linda nods
15:05:47 <karsten> okay, let's start. first item is
15:05:48 <karsten> * UX project (linda)
15:05:56 <karsten> I just put your name on that, hope that's okay.
15:06:08 <linda> Yep.
15:06:26 <linda> Do I lead?
15:06:31 <karsten> yes, please.
15:06:34 <linda> I see.
15:07:07 <linda> RaBe: We are working to redesign the Tor metrics website so that more users can do useful things with it.
15:07:33 <RaBe> yeah, i have seen your document, the projects page, and also your wireframed mockups! great work!
15:08:00 <linda> I think some of the usability issues that we wanted to address were 1) user workflow 2) catering to users that we don't address 3) making the site easier to navigate.
15:08:06 <linda> RaBe: thanks for checking that out!
15:08:38 <linda> So far, we have come up with a bunch of things we wanted to fix (Karsten), and talked about possible users and how we would help them (Karsten, Iwaken, Isabela, and myself).
15:09:00 <linda> I think the mockup is not quite the final thing that we want, but it's a step closer in the direction that we would want for the website.
15:09:26 <linda> The scope of this project is that we would only be making usability changes (how the website looks, not additional functionalities or metrics). And we want your help!
15:09:46 <linda> I was wondering what you would find most helpful for starting your work, and if you want specific information.
15:09:55 <linda> If you have any questions for us, you can also ask.
15:10:07 * linda waits for people to read wall of text (~˘▾˘)~
15:10:10 <karsten> heh
15:10:19 <karsten> one thing we should talk about is the schedule here.
15:10:34 <RaBe> so i had written down many questions, and deleted most of them after studying your document :)
15:10:44 <karsten> we started creating some materials for you, RaBe, but I think the plan was that we'd improve those until mid next week.
15:10:52 <karsten> RaBe: great to hear!
15:10:56 <linda> oh yeah, thanks, karsten!
15:11:01 <linda> RaBe: :)
15:11:11 <RaBe> however, there's a handful of questions left i'd like to ask
15:11:14 <karsten> and regarding schedule, RaBe and I are going to meet in person next thursday, possibly before our next irc meeting here.
15:11:19 <karsten> RaBe: please go ahead!
15:11:29 <linda> karsten: sounds helpful
15:11:35 <linda> RaBe: yes, please. :)
15:11:55 * isabela wants to propose a different flow for the data tab on the wireframes - couldn't get it done for this meeting but can get it done by monday for sure
15:12:07 <isabela> i wonder if i should do it and share it with y'all
15:12:22 <karsten> isabela: I'm very curious!
15:12:36 <isabela> ok!
15:12:44 <isabela> i am sorry for not being able to do things as quick
15:12:59 <RaBe> so, we're going for a full responsive page, right? the mockups so far were all for the desktop, but... mobile first? :D (this being said, i don't neccessarily need responsive mockup screens, I'll adept them myself)
15:13:36 <linda> karsten: what are your thoughts on this?
15:13:53 <isabela> i think we only win if we can do responsive design
15:14:01 <karsten> I don't know how a responsive mockup screen looks like.
15:14:07 * isabela has some experience with css for that
15:14:10 <karsten> I was assuming that we'll do a responsive design in the end.
15:14:17 <isabela> yes
15:14:40 <isabela> RaBe: what do you think
15:15:02 <RaBe> i think the desktop mockup are fine, we can do responsive/mobile adaptions later, using my dummy template ...
15:15:14 <isabela> sweet
15:15:18 <linda> Sounds good. It sholud work across all platforms.
15:15:20 <RaBe> of couse i start implementing responsiveness from the very beginning...
15:15:30 <linda> Does it need js to be responsive?
15:15:34 <RaBe> no
15:15:36 <isabela> no
15:15:36 <linda> Oh, okay.
15:15:39 <karsten> heh
15:15:39 <isabela> is css
15:15:43 <linda> Ah, I see.
15:15:53 <RaBe> yes, i already heard, html/css only :)
15:15:55 <karsten> so, regarding the css library,
15:16:06 <karsten> is your plan still to use, what's the name again? :)
15:16:17 <karsten> pure css?
15:16:22 <isabela> less?
15:16:40 * karsten doesn't know any of those libraries, but it seems isabela does!
15:16:50 <RaBe> i thought about pure css, but all your other pages use bootstrap, perhaps we should keep that ?
15:17:04 <karsten> well, don't take exonerator as reference here.
15:17:16 <karsten> as we briefly discussed a while back, that can be changed.
15:17:17 <RaBe> (less is just something for developing)
15:17:21 <isabela> yes
15:17:29 <isabela> bootstrap sounds good :)
15:17:52 <linda> I don't favor one over the other, but consistency sounds nice.
15:17:53 <isabela> i worked with the folks who created that back in the day at twitter :)
15:17:57 <karsten> isabela: maybe that's also something to decide tor-wide?
15:18:05 <linda> karsten: probably.
15:18:34 <isabela> karsten: depends for what like the drupal stuff i dont know if we want to touch that
15:18:37 <isabela> hehe
15:18:39 <RaBe> bootstrap is great! however, it uses JS. it does work without it, but it has not been developed for this purpose...
15:18:54 <karsten> isabela: touching the blog, old or new, does sound crazy. ;)
15:18:54 <isabela> true
15:19:00 <isabela> lol
15:19:03 <linda> Oh, we were having a debate on js or no js..
15:19:03 <hiro> many features of bootstrap do require js yes
15:19:18 <linda> yeah I think that's why I thought responsive == js.
15:19:27 <karsten> linda: (topic #2 on the agenda.)
15:19:27 <linda> Only responsive pages I made were in bootstrap. :X
15:19:28 <RaBe> responsive == css :D
15:19:39 <hiro> linda: you can do responsive w media queries within css
15:19:45 <linda> karsten: oops heh I'll reign it in
15:19:58 <isabela> js on bootstrap is for fancy navigation stuff and some other things like forms
15:20:05 <linda> RaBe: so, to go back to the questions/things you need.
15:20:28 <linda> RaBe: You would like wireframes for desktop, tablet, and mobile?
15:20:35 <linda> RaBe: What else would you need?
15:20:50 <RaBe> ok. so while we're on this topic: can i use JS to even improve the user experience for those who have enabled it?
15:20:51 <linda> RaBe: We have a style guide that talks about colors and fonts and all that, if that is something you would find useful.
15:21:17 <linda> RaBe: Hmm.. I think this is the second thing on our agenda to discuss. JS or no JS. Could that wait?
15:21:18 <RaBe> e.g. the faq page WITH js could hide the answers and you have to click to toggle them, non-JS users would see everything at once
15:21:32 <RaBe> oh, I just see that now, sorry :)
15:21:49 <linda> RaBe: (hehe but that sounds great to me. I see no drawbacks if it still is usable for people without JS)
15:22:07 <isabela> RaBe: I personally think we could have js if we also maintain an experience that works for those with it disabled
15:22:13 <isabela> but is for the next point :)
15:22:20 * linda flails
15:22:29 * linda i may have started this with my comment
15:22:31 * linda is ashamed
15:22:32 <linda> lol
15:22:36 <karsten> hehe
15:22:37 <RaBe> OK, what i'd like to have is a sitemap. i can extract it from your documents, but it does not include e.g. footer links, or submenu items for now.
15:22:54 <isabela> so back to linda's question on wireframes - RaBe you said just need the ones for desktop
15:22:58 <gamambel> RaBe: toggle/hide elements can be done purely with css, so bad example :)
15:23:02 <linda> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Site_map
15:23:02 <linda> ?
15:23:09 <RaBe> do we need some submenus (layer style)?
15:23:29 <isabela> yes
15:23:37 <RaBe> i just mean the page tree :)
15:23:49 <linda> I can easily do that along with the mockups.
15:23:50 <isabela> yes we can get that
15:23:54 <isabela> :)
15:23:57 <RaBe> nice!
15:24:08 <linda> Do you mean the submenus for the navigation bars at the top?
15:24:30 <RaBe> yeah, like you hover on one main menu link, and other sub items open ...
15:24:38 <linda> We didn't think about that, actually. but maybe we should!
15:24:42 <karsten> well, we thought of a table of contents for each page.
15:24:56 <linda> I guess those could translate into submenus.
15:25:02 <iwakeh> oh, I thought we intended these submenus.
15:25:05 <linda> Like data > tables can show all the tables or something
15:25:06 <linda> Oh
15:25:24 <iwakeh> as RaBe said: with mouseover etc.
15:25:25 * isabela plan on recreate the data tab involves submenu :D
15:25:30 <karsten> would that work without javascript?
15:25:42 <RaBe> yes
15:25:43 <isabela> yes
15:25:45 <isabela> hehe
15:25:46 <karsten> ah ok.
15:25:46 <iwakeh> fine.
15:25:53 <linda> ᕦ(^o^)ᕤ
15:26:05 <linda> Okay.
15:26:14 <karsten> RaBe: did you see the part about the styleguide above?
15:26:15 <RaBe> we have to see what we do with mobile users - touch screens do not support "hover" :) but i'll find a way
15:26:42 <iwakeh> Isn't mobile of lesser importance?
15:26:43 <linda> Responsive is yes. sitemap for you. mockups for you. style guide for you. Any other things you want to ask/tell us things you need?
15:27:23 <linda> iwakeh: I am not sure. I assumed most people would look at this on their desktop, but I've been surprised at how many users use mobile for seemingly complicated things or things I would do on a desktop.
15:27:29 <iwakeh> Sponsor scope was web-site, I think ...
15:27:42 <iwakeh> well, tablets are in between.
15:27:44 <RaBe> i did not yet see the "above" styleguide, sorry. i assume it contains some color and font specs?
15:27:56 <linda> iwakeh: I think the idea is to make the website look good on a phone, not to create an app or something.
15:28:00 <karsten> 15:20:59 < linda> RaBe: We have a style guide that talks about colors and fonts and  all that, if that is something you would find useful.
15:28:02 <linda> RaBe: yep~
15:28:18 <iwakeh> linda: sounds reasonable.
15:28:19 <RaBe> allright
15:28:24 <linda> Take a look at that, and if that isn't thorough for you, let us know.
15:28:38 <linda> :)
15:28:49 <RaBe> are there any images / graphics / logos we can use? like stock images or something...?
15:28:52 <linda> actually, you can always email me at linda@torporject.org, too.
15:29:19 <karsten> so, if we keep the current metrics logo, I can give you the original files from the designer.
15:29:19 <linda> RaBe: https://media.torproject.org/image/official-images/
15:29:28 <RaBe> thanks
15:29:36 <linda> RaBe: Technically.. those are it. How horrific.
15:29:44 <RaBe> do we need to find a place for a language switcher? :)
15:29:49 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/StyleGuidelines#LaunchVersion:
15:29:53 <isabela> ^^ guidelines
15:29:55 <linda> RaBe: There is really not much there, and a better set of logos is on my TODO list.
15:30:49 <RaBe> okay!
15:30:53 <linda> I like the current metrics logo, actually..
15:30:54 * karsten wouldn't mind having a language switcher.
15:31:03 <linda> what is a language switcher?
15:31:14 <RaBe> select another language
15:31:14 <iwakeh> karsten: maybe on the left added to the menu?
15:31:27 <RaBe> will the page be multi lingual?
15:31:30 <iwakeh> err, right
15:31:48 <linda> Oh I didn't think about this.
15:31:51 <iwakeh> currently, we only have english?
15:31:57 <isabela> yep
15:32:03 <karsten> fine question. maybe not soon, but if it makes sense to think about this now, why not.
15:32:25 <karsten> and disable that until there are more languages?
15:32:30 <isabela> that would bring the right to left langs
15:32:30 <karsten> disable == hide
15:32:32 <iwakeh> good idea.
15:32:40 * linda is fine with this
15:32:49 <RaBe> ok :) sounds great
15:32:59 <linda> ٩(^‿^)۶
15:33:02 <linda> Anything else?
15:33:04 <isabela> also, would involve internationalization of the strings to be able to extract to transifex
15:33:17 <karsten> isabela: true.
15:33:39 <isabela> if it will be left disabled
15:33:51 <isabela> i would leave 'internationalization/localization' as a task for another phase
15:33:54 <karsten> RaBe: just sent you the link to the logo originals.
15:34:02 <linda> isabela: agreed.
15:34:06 <RaBe> thanks karsten
15:34:07 <linda> karsten: yay
15:34:08 <karsten> isabela: okay. don't feel strongly.
15:34:36 <isabela> i like the idea but that means some work and if it wont be on, we can do it another time
15:34:48 <karsten> yep, makes sense.
15:35:16 <iwakeh> let's keep the languages hidden until we have translations.
15:35:30 <RaBe> in your project page, there was something about 1.3 graphics instead of text - for SEO and screen reader reasons, I'd like to veto this :)  however, I'd ADD the thumbnails you mentioned there...
15:35:53 <karsten> ah
15:36:00 <karsten> yes, there should be both.
15:36:23 <karsten> the mockups already contain a thumbnail and text, right?
15:36:37 <linda> Sparklines and text, yes.
15:36:40 <karsten> the project page also contains older ideas from a few months ago.
15:36:52 <RaBe> i see
15:37:07 <karsten> so, yes, screen reader reasons are important.
15:37:34 <RaBe> allright, so now on my agenda there's only the JS question left :)
15:37:39 <karsten> okay!
15:37:44 <karsten> shall we move on to that topic?
15:37:50 <linda> Yep!
15:37:54 <karsten> * JavaScript on Tor Metrics (karsten)
15:38:08 <karsten> okay, this was mainly about allowing _any_ javascript.
15:38:29 <karsten> where we'd use it for places where it really helps while leaving other parts of the website js-free.
15:38:44 <linda> (•₃•)
15:38:54 <karsten> to give some context, we're using a graphing engine right now that uses an Rserve server on the host to produce graphs.
15:39:13 <karsten> and we're using a set of parameters and parsig them ourselves and oh my god so many servlets and jsps that nobody wants to touch....
15:39:34 <karsten> shorter story: I'd like us to move to an existing web framework for generating custom graphs at some point in the future.
15:39:45 <karsten> rather than keep maintaining our own.
15:39:53 <karsten> that's out of scope for this UX redesign, btw.
15:40:15 <iwakeh> but, should be kept in mind when designing.
15:40:22 <linda> karsten: +1
15:40:25 <linda> iwakeh: +1
15:40:26 <karsten> but I'd like to discuss whether we should try to keep the metrics website entirely js-free forever.
15:40:42 <karsten> other parts are a dashboard for graphs,
15:40:51 <karsten> a custom page with all graphs for a given country, transport, etc.
15:41:12 <iwakeh> Isn't it also a question of providing pages that work with highest TorBrowser security? (In general)
15:41:15 <karsten> so, we got some useful feedback on the tor-project@ website.
15:41:37 <karsten> yep, high security mode in TB is the main reason against just doing this.
15:41:40 <iwakeh> (not necessarily, from Metrics ...)
15:41:46 * linda is very very for JS. (╯°□°）╯
15:41:58 <isabela> karsten: can you summarize the feedback from tor-project?
15:42:30 <karsten> I can try. one important statement was that we'd want to keep the option for creating some sort of permanent link of a graph.
15:42:34 <isabela> i saw the thread but i havent read everything
15:42:53 <karsten> that can be used on a mailing list and that will work for users that don't have javascript.
15:42:58 <isabela> yes
15:43:05 <isabela> that is important for reports as well
15:43:14 <karsten> they wouldn't be able to further customize the graph though. which should be fine.
15:43:38 <karsten> other feedback was easy: keep the option to export a .png, export data in .json format, etc.
15:43:40 <iwakeh> (by tweaking the url-string)
15:43:44 <karsten> we can do those quite easily.
15:43:58 <karsten> heh, well, url string hacking doesn't count as customizing.
15:44:09 <linda> 乁(՞︿՞)ㄏ
15:44:23 <linda> I think that feedback is valid.
15:44:26 <karsten> or does it? aren't we trying to make the website _more_ user-friendly? ;)
15:44:33 <linda> ? ....
15:44:39 <karsten> 15:43:48 < iwakeh> (by tweaking the url-string)
15:44:41 <karsten> ^
15:44:48 * isabela thinks it does
15:45:03 <isabela> is a use case
15:45:09 <iwakeh> depends a little on user profile.
15:45:11 <hiro> karsten: wrapping something that can export data on request: png, json, csv ... like an api that generates a file in the backend?
15:45:19 <isabela> most users will use this
15:45:26 <isabela> i mean how you link back to a data point you want to share
15:45:53 <karsten> so, regarding export images and raw data, that's doable with most frameworks, I think.
15:46:01 <karsten> for example, shiny has some easy methods for all that.
15:46:21 <karsten> the permanent link for graphs is potentially more tricky.
15:46:29 <karsten> but I see how it's an important use case.
15:47:00 <iwakeh> reproducible graphs, in a way.
15:47:09 <karsten> right.
15:47:10 <hiro> karsten: I meant something like http request w parameters: a backend app generates the data file (image/text) and returns it back to the client. Some request will be more common and can be ached
15:47:11 <linda> Oh, I see. (•₃•)
15:47:18 <hiro> s/ached/cached
15:47:35 <hiro> others will take more time
15:47:52 <karsten> hiro: yes. I guess my main concern is whether a framework allows doing that without major hacking on our side.
15:48:18 <karsten> but. we're going into details here.
15:48:25 <iwakeh> are we still discussing the js topic?
15:48:48 <linda> iwakeh: I thought so.
15:48:48 <karsten> my main goal for this mailing list topic was whether we can start looking into frameworks that require JS.
15:49:12 <karsten> and a possible outcome might be that graphs cannot be customized anymore without having JS enabled.
15:49:15 <linda> I personally think that there are some minority of people who will always be against the idea, but that shouldn't stop us.
15:49:28 <linda> And I am all for this idea, but I don't know how much that counts.
15:50:07 <karsten> it does count!
15:50:08 <iwakeh> TorBrowser security, not just some web-site.
15:50:36 <karsten> we could just say we'll prototype something that requires javascript for as few things as possible.
15:51:03 <iwakeh> that sounds fine, with reasonable fallback.
15:51:09 <linda> karsten: +1
15:51:12 <linda> iwakeh: +1
15:51:27 <iwakeh> i.e. hints about missing js, and not pressing people to enable.
15:51:36 <karsten> yes.
15:51:44 <isabela> yep
15:51:48 <isabela> this sounds great
15:51:54 <karsten> alright, this is a complex topic, and it's under discussion for many months now, on and off.
15:52:02 <karsten> how about we move on to a less complex topic? :D
15:52:08 <linda> ᕦ(^o^)ᕤ
15:52:09 <karsten> well, depends.
15:52:09 <iwakeh> didn't you set a dead-line?
15:52:17 <karsten> yes, yesterday for input.
15:52:24 <iwakeh> ah, ok.
15:52:25 <karsten> that's why we're discussing this today.
15:52:51 <karsten> okay, moving on?
15:52:56 <iwakeh> fine.
15:52:59 <karsten> * Onionoo manual and release (iwakeh)
15:53:03 <karsten> all yours!
15:53:11 <iwakeh> less difficult, indeed!
15:53:14 <iwakeh> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/query?milestone=Onionoo+3.1-1.0.0&group=status&order=priority
15:53:28 <iwakeh> all done or merge ready, except ...
15:53:42 <iwakeh> The Operator's Guide.
15:54:14 <karsten> hiro: did you start looking into that?
15:54:28 <hiro> yes
15:54:37 <iwakeh> We'd need it next Mon, Tue.
15:54:48 <karsten> I might not have mentioned that... uhm.
15:54:51 <iwakeh> In order to add it to the first release.
15:54:56 <hiro> I am working on this right now. Planning to finish it within today and tomorrow. Is that ok?
15:55:02 <karsten> oh, phew!
15:55:03 <iwakeh> great!
15:55:06 <karsten> awesome!
15:55:15 <hiro> so we have mon/tue for feedback changes right?
15:55:19 <karsten> anything unusual you ran into?
15:55:31 <karsten> release is planned for wed.
15:55:34 <hiro> nope, not at the moment
15:55:38 <karsten> okay, cool!
15:55:44 <iwakeh> Or ask on the ticket: #20670
15:55:54 <karsten> iwakeh: I'll look into the two tickets that are merge_ready.
15:56:27 <iwakeh> karsten: only the commit of #20668
15:56:31 <karsten> iwakeh: speaking of, we don't need a new metrics-lib release, do we?
15:56:37 <iwakeh> no.
15:56:43 <karsten> ok.
15:56:53 <iwakeh> we can start testing.
15:57:13 <iwakeh> after merge of 20668
15:57:48 <karsten> I'll look into that after the meeting.
15:57:51 <iwakeh> what about a pre-release tomorrow?
15:57:55 <iwakeh> ;-)
15:58:00 <karsten> if it just takes #20668, sure.
15:58:21 <iwakeh> great!
15:58:34 <iwakeh> Well on track here.
15:58:39 <karsten> neat!
15:59:03 <iwakeh> out of topics?
15:59:05 <karsten> okay, anything else on this topic?
15:59:12 <karsten> if not, out of topics indeed.
15:59:19 <iwakeh> not that i'm aware of :-)
15:59:49 <karsten> RaBe: do we think we can schedule our meeting next week to also make it to this irc meeting?
16:00:01 <RaBe> sure!
16:00:12 <karsten> perfect. then let's all talk again next week, same time here!
16:00:19 <karsten> thanks everyone. :)
16:00:22 <karsten> #endmeeting