15:00:06 <karsten> #startmeeting metrics team
15:00:06 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Dec 19 15:00:06 2016 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:06 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:00:28 <karsten> alright, let's talk about the website redesign/reorganization!
15:00:38 <karsten> it seems we have two main topics: content and design.
15:00:55 <karsten> shall we start with content today, because it determines the design to some extent?
15:01:02 <linda> Yes.
15:01:11 <iwakeh> ok
15:01:36 <karsten> oh, linda, do you want to run this meeting? or should I try to do that?
15:02:00 <karsten> wb hiro. :)
15:02:14 <hiro> hehe I got suspicious when nobody was talking
15:02:16 <linda> I feel like you are doing a good job leading!
15:02:25 <karsten> okay. :)
15:02:29 <linda> And you are leading it how I would anyway. :P
15:02:47 <karsten> heh. so, I think we have two drafts right now:
15:02:54 <karsten> 1. Metrics + About + News + Tools + Research
15:02:54 <karsten> 2. Metrics + News + Sources + Operation + Development + Research + Team
15:03:13 <karsten> http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/ is 1.
15:03:35 <karsten> the pad has 2 starting at line 133.
15:03:59 * linda nods
15:04:05 <karsten> for some additional background, linda and I briefly discussed moving parts of this to the main tor website.
15:04:25 <karsten> but I think we're dropping that for now and focusing on metrics.tp.o only.
15:04:36 <linda> Yes.
15:04:42 <karsten> knowing that we might move a thing or two whenever the tor website gets redesigned/reorganized.
15:04:51 <linda> Agreed.
15:05:08 <karsten> okay. so, is there a 3rd option for organizing content on metrics.tp.o?
15:05:24 <linda> I don't have one to propose.
15:05:34 <karsten> (should we wait a minute or two for people to read?)
15:05:34 <linda> I also like the new organization (#2).
15:05:41 <karsten> glad to hear! :)
15:05:42 <linda> karsten: yes
15:06:12 <linda> I like that it makes the metrics first-class citizens and avoids dropdowns.
15:06:34 <karsten> yes, that's my hope for the design part!
15:06:44 <karsten> curious to hear what the designer thinks about that. ;)
15:06:53 <karsten> but, second part of this meeting.
15:07:14 <karsten> did everyone catch up?
15:07:31 <linda> Oh, I see. I conflated the two.
15:08:10 <karsten> iwakeh, hiro, RaBe: any thoughts/concerns/suggestions about those two content options?
15:08:40 <RaBe> i am more interested how the content is shown :D
15:08:49 <karsten> heh, right.
15:09:24 <hiro> I think it's ok
15:09:37 <karsten> cool!
15:09:47 <hiro> my only preference design wise was for the sidebar. but I also undestand why we would like to go for the nav
15:10:26 <linda> In terms of the content, I like how you divided up the content for each user.
15:10:29 <karsten> yeah. that's also for part two of this meeting. sorry that this is so confusing!
15:10:43 <karsten> (that was in response to hiro, not linda.)
15:10:43 <linda> And it makes the tools a manageable size on each page.
15:10:58 <karsten> right.
15:10:58 <linda> It also takes the work out of users having to sort through the categories themselves.
15:11:07 <linda> And we can use icons again, if we want to.
15:11:23 <karsten> we should try!
15:11:28 <linda> And I think the huge de-emphasis on the other content is nice. (although maybe that is not content?!...?)
15:11:46 <karsten> hmmm?
15:11:56 <linda> Ops - dev - team sounds like a clearer way to group things.
15:12:08 <linda> karsten: I slipped into design again. ignore that one.
15:12:16 <karsten> ok.
15:12:27 <linda> Each user would know more clearly where to go.
15:12:47 <RaBe> i think i could show both content options in all 4 design options :)
15:12:55 <linda> I'm a fan of catering to the user's needs and grouping things as such, rather than grouping things by what makes sense to us, or the obejcts (like putting all the tools together).
15:13:05 <karsten> RaBe: hehe, speaking of *reducing* complexity. ;)
15:13:13 <linda> RaBe: yes. which is why I think we're trying to separate the two.
15:13:17 <linda> but it's confusing.
15:13:21 <linda> oh no iwakeh!
15:13:37 <karsten> iwakeh: hey, want me to send you the backlog?
15:13:50 <iwakeh> did i miss a lot?
15:14:15 <karsten> well, a bit?
15:14:20 <karsten> I just sent it to you.
15:14:49 <karsten> so, it seems we pretty much agree on option 2 here.
15:15:04 * iwakeh waiting for the mail ... (thanks to karsten)
15:15:05 <karsten> let's wait another minute or three for iwakeh to object.
15:15:23 <karsten> well, wait to see *whether* there are objections.
15:16:02 <karsten> because knowing which options we go for content-wise could make the design discussion easier.
15:16:15 <RaBe> i am not sure about that :D
15:16:21 <karsten> haha
15:16:35 <RaBe> in all prototypes i could go from the five to the new seven main menu items...
15:17:12 <karsten> okay, true.
15:17:14 <iwakeh> well, in some way we're just guessing what users want?
15:17:27 <karsten> uhm, yes?
15:18:19 <linda> Without doing user research and interviewing them, yes.
15:18:27 <iwakeh> I mean, the logic of grouping we see will make sense to users at some point, but maybe that's too abstract ...
15:19:28 <karsten> we might hear back from users after we deploy these changes, and then we can adapt things.
15:19:55 <linda> Agreed. This process is iterative and feedback is useful.
15:19:56 <karsten> I guess one goal of these categories was to put more stuff on metrics.tp.o than we could have done with a single tools page.
15:20:36 <iwakeh> well, I lean towoard 1, but not too strongly.
15:20:48 <karsten> oh, hmm.
15:20:54 <linda> But user-centric design is a standard practice. I don't think it's a leap to assume that people who run relays exist, and that they would want their information in one place. We are guessing at what we consider their information though.
15:21:50 <linda> The first does list everything that the user wants and allows them to see everything on a single page, which is good.
15:22:06 <linda> We don't make assumptions, and the users need to do a bit of work to find what they want.
15:22:07 <iwakeh> navigation is most important for a first time user; those who return have their bookmarks, I assume
15:22:46 <iwakeh> and, I cannot clearly sort things to those seven categories of option 2.
15:23:21 <karsten> well, that problem also exists in option 1 where you'll have to sort them into parts of the tools page, I guess.
15:23:36 <linda> karsten: yes.
15:23:41 <iwakeh> but, again if the majority here is for #2; I'm fine with that.
15:23:51 <karsten> suggestion:
15:24:01 <karsten> we didn't build #2 yet, except for this draft on the pad.
15:24:21 <iwakeh> RaBe: is it hard to add/remove categories later?
15:24:22 <karsten> we'll build it, and if we find on thursday that it turned out to be a worse idea than expected, we reconsider?
15:24:45 <RaBe> iwakeh: absolutely not. it's just another <li> element :)
15:25:25 <iwakeh> Fine, than we just start with something pragmatic and optimize.
15:25:41 <iwakeh> karsten: that's what I read from your suggestion?
15:26:12 <karsten> iwakeh: I'd start building what I suggested there on the pad, and then we discuss on thursday and improve.
15:26:21 <karsten> iwakeh: well, or we build it together.
15:26:33 <karsten> let's talk about who does what later.
15:26:37 <iwakeh> ok.
15:26:48 <karsten> ok!
15:26:52 * linda nods
15:26:52 <karsten> design?
15:27:25 <karsten> I'm counting 4 options:
15:27:30 <karsten> 1. single navbar with dropdowns + sidebar on the right
15:27:33 <karsten> 2. single sidebar on the left
15:27:36 <karsten> 3. navbar without dropdowns + pills without dropdowns
15:27:39 <karsten> 4. double navbar with dropdowns
15:27:43 <linda> oh boy
15:27:46 <karsten> :)
15:27:52 <linda> *oh, <genderless person>
15:27:53 <linda> lol
15:28:01 <karsten> http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/ is 1.
15:28:09 <karsten> http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/index-sidebar.php?page=data&sub=user is 2.
15:28:14 <karsten> https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/navigation-reloaded.pdf is 3.
15:28:21 <karsten> http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/index-double-navbar.php is 4.
15:28:26 <karsten> is there a 5?
15:28:36 <linda> I don't have one to contribute, and can't think of another.
15:29:44 <RaBe> karsten: sorry, but i'm not the biggest fan of the pills in #3 - we somehow would have two separate "main menus"...
15:29:52 <iwakeh> 4 is taking too much space for navigation.
15:30:05 <hiro> personally I prefer 2
15:30:07 <karsten> RaBe: but isn't that common on many websites?
15:30:16 <karsten> iwakeh: maybe we can reduce vertical whitespace a bit?
15:30:47 <karsten> hiro: it reminds me a bit of wikipedia. :)
15:30:53 <RaBe> karsten: i don't think so... many pages have sub menus displayed in another place...
15:31:21 <karsten> "While many websites need more than two, all websites have at least two main menus: primary and secondary."
15:31:24 <RaBe> for #2 and #4 that's only very rough, i did not adjust anything :)
15:31:27 <karsten> random sentence from https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/06/planning-and-implementing-website-navigation/
15:31:34 <karsten> which I didn't read in full, b/c time.
15:32:13 <linda> karsten: +1
15:32:20 <karsten> here's something else to discuss: dropdowns.
15:32:26 <iwakeh> #2 has the advantage that all navigation is always on the left.
15:32:26 <linda> I like the idea of primary and secondary navigation.
15:32:29 <karsten> "Usability studies show that drop down menus are annoying. Here’s why: visitors move their eyes much faster than they move their mouse. When they move their mouse to a menu item, they’ve likely already decided to click… and then you gave them more options. It’s a hiccup in the mind of the visitor." (https://www.orbitmedia.com/blog/website-navigation/)
15:32:42 <RaBe> i have seen these secondary navigation bars, but mostly they contain some meta links, like contact, faq, terms...
15:32:50 <linda> I also agree that getting rid of dropdowns as much as possible is a good idea.
15:33:32 <RaBe> what about option #4, with all dropdowns removed and some adjustments for the second metrics line?
15:33:40 <karsten> RaBe: yes, and I think we're providing quite different information on our metrics pages and the various other pages.
15:33:51 <karsten> RaBe: I'm not opposed to #4.
15:34:05 <linda> RaBe: I think that is better than the dropdown, but I prefer to have a secondary menu instead.
15:34:30 <karsten> iwakeh: downside of #2 was mobile-friendliness, I think? RaBe?
15:34:46 <linda> I think that the secondary menu can be way way more de-emphasized (i.e. make the text a lot smaller, put it in with the grey text at the bottom of the page, only keep the icons on the first page and remove the banner links, etc.)
15:35:08 <RaBe> karsten: #2 is just different on the desktop, mobile users are not affected
15:35:25 <karsten> linda: agreed, that would be possible.
15:35:55 <karsten> RaBe: how would #2 work for mobile users? they'd see the "hamburger" and get a tree with links?
15:36:06 <RaBe> karsten: yes
15:36:17 <hiro> yes just verified that :)
15:36:19 <karsten> ok.
15:36:43 <karsten> oh genderless person, how do we decide this...
15:36:47 <RaBe> so if we'd take #4, and made the first menu a lot smaller, the second bar could be the main navigation, and the first bar the secondary meta navigation?
15:37:12 <RaBe> (we'd remove the "metrics" item of couse)
15:38:29 <karsten> RaBe: I think so?
15:38:30 <RaBe> if the secondary navigations content was less important, i'd say we could move it to the upper right corner or something. but with "news" and "tools" it seems pretty important to me to "hide" it
15:38:31 <iwakeh> Currently, one third of my screen is taken up by banner and menues in #4.
15:38:49 <linda> I am of the opinion that this is the metrics team's final decision. It's your product and I would like for you to be happy with how it looks.
15:39:01 <karsten> RaBe: news is an exception there.
15:39:03 <linda> I can voice my opinion and give you options but you should decide.
15:39:20 <karsten> RaBe: tools will be replaced by Sources, Operation, Development, Research, and Team.
15:39:35 <RaBe> seems still to be important? :)
15:39:47 <karsten> true, but not what most people will come for.
15:39:51 <karsten> purely guessing here.
15:40:00 <karsten> but I think they're there to see something, not to read.
15:40:10 <linda> karsten: I agree.
15:40:12 <iwakeh> depends on the future news writer ;-)
15:40:13 <karsten> except for news.
15:40:19 <karsten> yeah. :)
15:40:58 <RaBe> what about putting the news in the main nav?
15:40:58 <linda> My vote is 3 >> 4 ~= 1 > 2.
15:41:03 <iwakeh> how much is taken by navigation in #4 on mobile?
15:41:21 <iwakeh> let's vote (sounds familiar)
15:41:29 <RaBe> mobile should be identical for #1 #2 #3 #4
15:41:50 <RaBe> (not until i fix it of couse ^^)
15:41:58 <iwakeh> RaBe: ah, thanks.
15:42:03 <karsten> hmmm, news in primary...
15:42:40 <linda> my vote is that news stays secondary.
15:42:43 <karsten> this seems unrelated to design, or at least like something we can adapt easily.
15:42:48 <linda> it's metrics.torproject, not news.torproject.
15:42:53 <linda> yes.
15:42:56 <karsten> I can imagine starting with news as secondary.
15:43:23 <RaBe> so the question is, where to put the 2ndary navigation...
15:44:23 <linda> RaBe: did we even decide we would have secondary navigation?
15:44:31 <linda> I propose to discuss this only if we decide it is what we want.
15:44:55 <karsten> should we take the 50:50 joker first?
15:45:10 <karsten> I mean, can we rule out one of the designs, or two?
15:45:32 <karsten> or should we vote?
15:46:05 <linda> let's vote, and kill some
15:46:05 <karsten> or keep discussing pros and cons?
15:46:22 <iwakeh> prioritize and see?
15:46:27 <karsten> okay, let's vote. what are our preferences, from like-most to like-least?
15:46:40 <RaBe> one more thing
15:47:01 <RaBe> what about this new option #5:
15:47:58 <RaBe> http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/index-meta-navbar.php
15:48:06 <RaBe> without any dropdowns
15:48:15 <RaBe> and metrics/home moved to the main nav
15:48:46 <karsten> that's almost like 3, no?
15:49:06 <iwakeh> sort of feels like it.
15:49:11 <karsten> well, without pills and therefore a second navbar. but the position of that secondary navigation is the same.
15:49:18 <RaBe> yes
15:49:21 * karsten doesn't need pills.
15:49:27 <linda> hehe.
15:49:52 <linda> I think the design choice (secondary menu) is equivalent but I like the styling (less noticable, above) better.
15:49:55 <linda> Shall we vote?
15:50:17 <karsten> which one do you like better?
15:50:20 <iwakeh> linda: are there any accessibility requirements by UX?
15:51:27 <linda> iwakeh: what do you mean by accessibility requirements?
15:51:30 * isabela lurks
15:51:39 <karsten> hi isabela!
15:52:04 <isabela> i just looked at http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/index-meta-navbar.php
15:52:05 <iwakeh> linda: I don't want to introduce another problem, but sometimes there are requirements like having font size choosing and such requirement.
15:52:35 <iwakeh> linda: but never mind, if there is no such thing.
15:53:03 <linda> iwakeh: you are right that there are usually some requiremetns, but we don't have any at the moment. If we did, I would suggest to apply those things to the main and not secondary things.
15:53:16 <karsten> okay, should we vote?
15:53:27 <iwakeh> sure.
15:53:33 <karsten> 5/3, 4, 2
15:53:53 <isabela> are you vote on the bar at the top right?
15:53:58 <isabela> *voting
15:53:59 <linda> 5/3, 4, 1, 2
15:54:03 <iwakeh> 5,3,2, ...
15:54:10 <hiro> 2-5-1-4-3
15:54:29 <karsten> isabela: we're voting on navbars and related navigation elements.
15:54:35 <hiro> the reason why I like 2 more is that I do not have to go through all the menu to know where something is
15:54:39 <RaBe> 5/3, 1, 2
15:54:41 <hiro> I can just read it directly
15:54:55 <isabela> (i would suggest to not have icons on that bar - it makes the words smaller and hard to read and you can't really tell what those icons are because they are too small)
15:54:57 <karsten> hiro: agreed. it's nice. but it also eats up a lot of space.
15:55:17 <linda> hiro: I think that the 5/3 achieves the same effect, but just splits them into two.
15:55:32 <RaBe> isabela: i just did that dummy #5 in 30 seconds, there's still much to do :D
15:55:34 <hiro> yeah as I said it is only a preference :) I like 5 too
15:55:40 <iwakeh> hiro: that's true. that's the standard tool layout for developers, admins ...
15:55:52 <isabela> RaBe: ok :)
15:56:10 <karsten> alright, do we have to count votes, or does 5 win anyway? :)
15:56:43 <iwakeh> a weighted vote would make 5 winner.
15:57:02 <karsten> well, 5 without dropdowns and a bit more design effort than 30 seconds. :)
15:57:12 <iwakeh> yes :-)
15:57:19 <karsten> RaBe: it's really cool that you're coming up with these prototypes so quickly!
15:57:20 <RaBe> ok, #5 it is! i'll work on colors and font sizes and stuff, and remove all submenus...
15:57:32 <linda> RaBe: <3
15:57:48 <linda> and thank you karsten for coming up with the solution.
15:57:50 <karsten> so, just to summarize, we'll have a fully static navigation with ~12 entries.
15:57:58 <linda> yes.
15:58:01 <karsten> ~6 in primary, ~6 in secondary.
15:58:18 <karsten> ah, plus tabs on the Users page et al.
15:58:42 <karsten> and table-of-content boxes for links to anchors on the current page.
15:58:49 <karsten> and breadcrumbs.
15:58:54 <karsten> was that it?
15:59:03 <iwakeh> yep.
15:59:06 <linda> I think so.
15:59:12 <RaBe> great!
15:59:16 <linda> Although I would still vote for no content boxes
15:59:19 * karsten is happy!
15:59:21 <linda> if we can get the pages to be short enough.
15:59:24 * linda is happy too
15:59:25 <RaBe> for mobile users:
15:59:28 <karsten> linda: agreed. optional!
15:59:38 <linda> karsten: yes, but necessary if it is long.
15:59:38 <iwakeh> linda: only for long pages.
15:59:40 <RaBe> do you want them to reach every metrics subpage, or is "metrics" ok?
15:59:56 <linda> RaBe: ?
15:59:57 <karsten> RaBe: is 6+6 too much for mobile?
16:00:18 <karsten> linda: I think the question is what to put in the mobile navigation menu.
16:00:20 <iwakeh> Will the content boxes float?
16:00:23 <RaBe> no, but the first 6 items are the same menu items that are at the home page without opening a menu :)
16:01:03 <karsten> RaBe: right, it's just a question of going somewhere more quickly.
16:01:05 <RaBe> but i can add them, and you can remove them later if it's too much
16:01:11 <karsten> right.
16:01:18 <karsten> iwakeh: float only with javascript, I think?
16:01:37 <RaBe> i'm not sure what boxes you meant, but floating is CSS
16:01:49 <karsten> table-of-content boxes.
16:01:56 <iwakeh> The long page sub-navigation.
16:02:01 <RaBe> oh, on mobile they're hidden
16:02:03 <karsten> when you scroll down, will they follow?
16:02:11 <RaBe> not yet. that's JS
16:02:18 <iwakeh> RaBe: hidden on mobile is ok.
16:02:25 <linda> iwakeh: yes
16:02:46 * karsten doesn't feel strongly about those boxes.
16:03:07 <RaBe> for now, we only have this box on the news page, i think?
16:03:28 * linda feels strongly against boxes.
16:03:51 <karsten> we can leave them out for now.
16:04:05 <RaBe> so i won't but more JS into it...
16:04:09 <iwakeh> Consise pages is the better solution.
16:04:18 <karsten> sounds good.
16:04:26 <RaBe> however, the news page will be long...
16:04:27 <linda> yes.
16:04:46 <linda> I think the news page being long is okay.
16:04:54 <karsten> yes, I think that's not an issue.
16:04:58 <linda> Although I think it won't be long with what we have right now.
16:04:59 <karsten> it's sorted.
16:05:00 <iwakeh> the most recent will be on top;
16:05:15 <karsten> and searchable using the browser search function.
16:05:21 <iwakeh> right.
16:05:26 <RaBe> ok. i'll move the box to a hidden example page in case you need it again :)
16:05:33 <iwakeh> hehe.
16:05:47 <karsten> RaBe: oh, btw, you had these examples on the start page.
16:05:55 <karsten> for putting in a quote, and so on.
16:06:00 <karsten> do you still have that?
16:06:12 <karsten> "content below won't be on the actual page..."
16:06:18 <RaBe> yes, http://metrics.cc-ltd.net/?page=examples
16:06:34 <karsten> perfect!
16:06:43 <karsten> summary: primary and secondary navigation with ~6 + ~6 entries, primary below Tor Metrics, secondary at top right, no dropdowns, tabs on Metrics subpages, *no* table-of-content boxes on long pages with links to anchors, breadcrumbs
16:07:31 <linda> whew.
16:07:38 * linda cheers
16:07:42 <karsten> hehe
16:07:47 <karsten> next steps!
16:08:14 <karsten> how (un-)realistic is it to put this on metrics.tp.o by end of the week? :)
16:08:25 <linda> :o
16:08:34 <iwakeh> ?
16:09:14 <RaBe> i'll update the main prototype in the next 24 hours
16:09:15 <karsten> finish the design, adapt it to metrics-web's staging branch, update content, discuss once more, deploy.
16:09:27 * linda lurks
16:09:47 <iwakeh> discuss once more - change iteration - deploy?
16:09:49 <karsten> or if that is too optimistic, deploy on staging.metrics.torproject.org?
16:09:56 <iwakeh> +1
16:10:04 <linda> I wouldn't mind deploying.
16:10:09 <linda> But I will go with what you think is best.
16:10:37 <karsten> we could aim for deploying and decide on thursday.
16:11:06 <iwakeh> better to have it on staging for clicking through and looking for problems, we didn't
16:11:22 <karsten> might make sense, yes.
16:11:24 <iwakeh> anticipate (not that I think there'll be any ;-)
16:11:27 <linda> +1
16:11:34 <linda> now agrees with both of y'all
16:11:36 <karsten> we'll also have to write a blog post. which might not happen before january anyway.
16:11:55 <karsten> or, be published, because of editing and because of fundraising campaign.
16:12:06 <linda> Yep.
16:12:13 <karsten> so, staging by end of the week.
16:12:16 <linda> I'd be happy to help write that, btw. :)
16:12:19 <karsten> sounds good!
16:12:31 <karsten> linda: yes, that would be awesome!
16:12:39 <karsten> linda: in fact, would you want to start writing it?
16:12:53 <karsten> and we discuss a draft on thursday?
16:13:00 <linda> sure. I'll write the blog post.
16:13:17 <iwakeh> great.
16:13:21 <karsten> cool!
16:13:27 <linda> I would appreciate people sending me anything that they would like included.
16:13:33 <linda> To reduce one edit round.
16:13:34 <karsten> sounds great!
16:14:18 * linda is totes excited
16:14:39 <karsten> there, summaries and action items are on the pad.
16:14:48 <karsten> looks like we're done, only 15 minutes over time!!
16:15:02 <iwakeh> 20 here ;-)
16:15:15 <iwakeh> oh, space-time-dilation ;-)
16:15:16 <linda> hehe
16:15:18 <RaBe> :D
16:15:19 <karsten> hah
16:15:34 <karsten> cool. thanks everyone!
16:15:44 <karsten> we're so close!
16:15:51 <karsten> let's talk more on thursday.
16:16:02 <karsten> #endmeeting