13:58:24 <antonela> #startmeeting ux team
13:58:24 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Feb 26 13:58:24 2019 UTC.  The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:58:24 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:58:28 <antonela> hello peopleee
13:58:31 <antonela> another ux meeting this week!
13:58:53 <antonela> February was very short, but we made it :)
13:58:54 <T_> Happy to be here
13:58:54 <antonela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/RcqKkstd-eB62efZm6AzTTgG5TiVb_AF1qvnhYdg1Pw
13:59:05 <antonela> updates and agenda topics here ^^^
13:59:08 <antonela> hello T_!
13:59:10 <antonela> hi dunqan!
13:59:28 <antonela> pili, hiro, emmapeel
13:59:47 <T_> Hello Antonela!
14:00:30 <hiro> I am here :)
14:00:46 <pili> hi
14:01:26 <antonela> hi all
14:01:38 <antonela> lets start, we have a few items at the agenda today
14:01:42 <antonela> elioqoshi you around?
14:02:05 <antonela> lets do toast_[m] question first
14:02:15 <pili> +1
14:02:22 <antonela> i go to my root folder and run sass --watch assets/scss:assets/static
14:02:29 <toast_[m]> Thanks
14:02:30 <toast_[m]> How is Sass being compiled by other people on the project?
14:02:34 <antonela> nice question tho, hiro what do you do?
14:02:49 <hiro> the same thing that you do
14:03:02 <antonela> what are you doing toast_[m]?
14:03:07 <toast_[m]> So using ruby sass?
14:03:11 <hiro> I use the sass gem yes
14:03:14 <antonela> yes yes
14:03:22 <toast_[m]> I'm using node-sass
14:03:30 <toast_[m]> And I run:
14:03:40 <toast_[m]> node-sass assets/scss/bootstrap.scss > assets/static/bootstrap.css --output-style compressed
14:03:45 <antonela> do you get any difference at the output?
14:04:15 <toast_[m]> Yes the css file gets conflicts with things others have committed
14:04:29 <hiro> that is normal when you compile sass
14:04:36 <hiro> we should compile sass at build time
14:04:41 <antonela> ohh that was the conflict with bootstrap.css
14:04:44 <antonela> i see
14:04:45 <toast_[m]> So I think it would be good to have it scripted and checked in to the project
14:04:59 <toast_[m]> E.g. using Webpack
14:04:59 <hiro> but we don't because of the difference between the versions of sass the gem and the debian package
14:05:11 <toast_[m]> Or just somehow made consistent across machines
14:05:39 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Hi! Sorry, I'm on mobile, we have a power outage here
14:06:02 <antonela> hi elioqoshi! oh, its fine
14:06:11 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Checking the pad
14:06:19 <hiro> ideally it will be built by jenkins
14:07:03 <toast_[m]> A bit of work but perhaps instead of checking in the CSS file we can have a wrapper ./build --debian or something?
14:08:24 <antonela> maybe we could explore on it when we set up jenkins hiro?
14:08:52 <hiro> jenkins is setup already
14:09:16 <hiro> the only reason why it isn't working just yet is because of the version of sass supported by debian ruby-sass package
14:09:23 <hiro> I haven't checked if it has been updated
14:09:29 <antonela> ohh i see
14:09:35 <toast_[m]> Ah okay.
14:09:37 <hiro> but until a few months ago it wasn't working with the sass version used in bootstrap 4
14:09:54 <antonela> anyways, is a great suggestion, thanks toast_[m]!
14:10:16 <hiro> the debian package isn't updated as quickly as bootstap is... and we need it in our building system
14:10:42 <hiro> also until a few weeks ago I was basically the only one working on this... so I decided to wait and see
14:11:06 <hiro> webpack is a great suggestion and could somewhat standardize the compiled css
14:11:13 * kcg295 is lurking.
14:11:23 <hiro> but I don't think it can be used at build... I have to check that
14:11:24 <kcg295> oh, sorry, this is kevun
14:11:29 <hiro> hi kevun
14:11:35 <antonela> hi kevun!
14:11:44 <kcg295> let me fix my nick, sorry
14:11:56 <toast_[m]> Okay, no worries. I'll see if there's anything I can do to get similar output to you all in the meantime so there's less CSS file conflicts each time.
14:12:28 <antonela> thanks for your PRs too toast_[m]~
14:12:32 <antonela> !!
14:12:44 <antonela> oki, anything else buidling/tpo related?
14:12:46 <toast_[m]> Glad to be helpful :)
14:13:13 <antonela> elioqoshi quick call, could we meet this week to plan the search page? not sure about hellais and agrabeli timezones, a doodle will help maybe
14:13:19 <kevun> that's better
14:13:25 <antonela> haha yes it is kevun
14:13:40 <antonela> pili, you have the mic
14:13:45 <pili> hi everyone
14:14:07 <hiro> toast_[m] the conflict is not a big deal
14:14:08 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> antonela sure, I can do a Doodle
14:14:08 <pili> we've been running vision brainstorming exercises with all the other teams during the past few weeks
14:14:16 <hiro> I have just rebuilt the sass and that was fine!
14:14:35 <pili> and now it's the UX team's time :)
14:14:40 <antonela> yee
14:14:43 <dunqan> pili: exciting!
14:14:51 <pili> I hope you are all excited and thinking big today :D
14:15:20 <pili> so, the same question I've been asking at all the other ones: why do we need a UX team at Tor?
14:16:26 <antonela> well, we are doing a lot of things, one of them is getting our end-users closer to our development process
14:16:29 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> @hola regarding the search page, I assume the changes will be more minimal?
14:16:40 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> As it's already deployed some time ago
14:16:55 <antonela> elioqoshi let's estimate that in the meeting
14:17:19 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Okay
14:17:26 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> This is the prototype:
14:17:28 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> http://ooni-explorer-next.test.ooni.io/search
14:18:01 <antonela> pili, another thing we are doing is trying to set up a coherent visual language for people to recognize the project
14:19:17 <dunqan> One of the most interesting aspects of the UX Team's work to me has been understanding the behaviour-change required for novice/non-technical users to protect themselves
14:19:37 <antonela> maybe kevun have a more technical argument, like more people using tor make tor more secure for each of them, that is why we need a ux team, we need to have usable tools that people can/want use
14:19:38 <dunqan> which is something that needs a human solution, as much as a technical one
14:20:18 <antonela> yes, that too dunqan
14:20:21 <kevun> I do!
14:20:28 <antonela> :)
14:20:40 <kevun> The strength of Tor is dependent on the number of indistinguishable users who use it at a given time.
14:21:12 <kevun> By making Tor UX a priority, you make it easier for new users to adopt and use Tor, thus increasing the anonymity set Tor relies on.
14:21:31 * antonela goes to print those two lines
14:21:38 <kevun> source: https://freehaven.net/anonbib/cache/usability:weis2006.pdf
14:21:41 <pili> :D
14:21:47 <pili> thanks dunqan and kevun :)
14:22:05 <kevun> :D
14:22:50 <pili> so... this may be an obvious question but, what problems are we trying to solve as a team?
14:22:51 * ailanthus joins, reads backlog
14:23:05 <pili> welcome ailanthus
14:23:06 <antonela> hi ailanthus !
14:23:13 <ailanthus> can i add that UX is the difference between using and not using Tor for most people
14:23:23 <ailanthus> UX has been a barrier
14:23:26 <antonela> right ailanthus
14:23:40 <ailanthus> so good UX is essential to using Tor and also to scaling Tor
14:23:54 <T_> But it's getting better I must add
14:23:59 <toast_[m]> In a generic sense this is a useful report on the value of design: 'the relationship between design practices and business performance': https://www.invisionapp.com/design-better/design-maturity-model/
14:24:00 <dunqan> yep, absolutely, and further to that good UX helps users use Tor to its fullest potential
14:24:13 <ailanthus> agree, it's gotten much better
14:24:39 <ailanthus> UX is about being user centered and not developer centered :)
14:24:51 <antonela> toast_[m]: it is, john maeda has a good annual reporting about design and how it impacts in products
14:24:58 <kevun> pili: in a broad sense or specific problems?
14:25:15 <pili> either is fine, we're brainstorming :)
14:25:21 * ailanthus hi, all :)
14:25:37 <antonela> that is an interesting point ailanthus, the design thinking part on human centered design became something quite new here and changed in many ways the way we develop
14:25:49 <antonela> like, we have discussions about design from designers point of views now
14:25:55 <antonela> (we need moarrr)
14:26:06 <ailanthus> :)
14:26:37 <antonela> re: problems, all of them
14:27:19 <antonela> starting super meta on designing our own proceses of work, going super specific understanding users mental models when using tor browser for example
14:27:31 <kevun> pili: personally I want to help address the problem of broken functionality on the Tor browser, by measuring what's broken when people try to use Tor and doing outreach to orgs who run web services to convince them to make them more Tor-Friendly, and tell them how to do so.
14:27:44 <antonela> we need you on that kevun!
14:28:17 <kevun> anotonela: I did a little bit of work on the mental model stuff, but with Tor as a whole rather than the Tor Browser
14:28:19 <pili> kevun: that would be amazing
14:28:30 <toast_[m]> Make it more politically difficult to restrict use of TB by increasing the user base of 'ordinary people'
14:28:43 <kevun> toast_[m] yes. 100% yes.
14:28:49 <antonela> kevun yes, we need to work on both
14:28:53 <ailanthus> toast_[m]: +1
14:28:55 <antonela> toast_[m]: yes!
14:29:16 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Beautiful and well said
14:29:48 <T_> That's a key point - ordinary people. It seems now the cluster of people using TB are in tech, human rights and similar circles.
14:29:51 <kevun> In this respect I will soon be going to a high school to talk about security tools, and I'll probably discuss Tor and the important role it plays in securing the Internet and ensuring people's privacy rights.
14:30:03 <antonela> but then, "the problems of the ux team" are strictly related with our product(s) vision
14:30:33 <dunqan> That goal poses interesting challenges too – to an "ordinary user" tor looks like a normal browser, but it doesn't function like a normal browser
14:30:47 <dunqan> and ordinary users are more likely to unknowingly compromise their security
14:31:00 <antonela> exactly dunqan
14:31:27 <kevun> dunqan Yes. I think there are ways to educate users as they use the tool, though.
14:31:42 <antonela> and do we want to have a "normal" browser? what is the balance between having the most secure castle in the world and allow you to explore the wood?
14:31:58 <ailanthus> dunqan point. and we want to go after ordinary users as one use case but also go after high-risk users as another? And UX for these groups varies from country to country. In China, it's very different from other countries (not just b/c of language), for instance
14:32:04 <ailanthus> *good point
14:32:07 <kevun> There is the difference between having a "normal browser" and a "secure browser that appeals to normal people."
14:32:29 <kevun> At least I think so
14:32:31 <dunqan> definitely kevun – we need to develop greater affordances within the software itself, as well as providing transparent and understandable educational material
14:32:40 <antonela> that is the balance we try to explore/achieve kevun
14:32:46 <T_> Maintaining that balance is a delicate matter
14:33:22 <dunqan> alianthus that's something I've been trying to wrap my head round recently – especially given the persona work antonela and I are starting to look at!
14:34:02 <ailanthus> dunqan: which part? :)
14:34:06 <antonela> ailanthus: you right, tor browser as an anti-censorship tool is one part of it
14:35:03 <dunqan> ah, the balancing act of developing for users with such diverse backgrounds and use cases (ordinary vs high-risk use cases, as you've put it)
14:35:35 <ailanthus> dunqan: ah, ok :)
14:36:09 <pili> and also the "high-risk use cases" can vary from situation to situation, some may just want to be anonymous whereas others may be more interested in censorship circumvention
14:36:15 <ailanthus> There can also be a thing where Tor is a bit unusual to use, but that has been normalized through PR in a given country
14:36:26 <ailanthus> through communications, outreach, etc
14:36:44 <ailanthus> pili: yes, important point
14:37:26 <pili> we can carry on talking about problems, but also, let's start thinking about the UX team in 2 years time and what our ideal state would be then
14:38:51 <pili> any ideas? :)
14:40:21 <antonela> i mapped the current status of the team and which roles we need to cover, on our current demand -- 2 years times ideally we have a group of 3 (designer, researcher and pm) working on each of our products
14:40:25 <antonela> let me export it
14:40:53 <antonela> https://share.riseup.net/#i9JssTxjvZICU0cSL8ch3A
14:41:27 <antonela> for sure this is ideal in a world where we want to build products
14:42:19 <antonela> if the project wants to write/publish papers, the team structure could be quite different
14:44:21 <pili> what about our output? What do we want to achieve in the next 2 years? :)
14:44:56 <dunqan> for starters the design system & tools antonela's been developing will be super helpful in supporting this goal too, as they continue to mature
14:46:28 <dunqan> and should help provide more consistent/inclusive solutions to the problems users are facing
14:46:33 <antonela> having the most secure and usable browser in market pili? is a weird question because we cannot anything without developers
14:46:50 <pili> I know :)
14:47:13 <pili> I like to think we're all working towards the same goal though :D
14:47:25 <antonela> well, is not the case sometimes
14:47:40 <antonela> is nice that we are asking the same question to all the teams, to see if we match
14:47:53 <pili> ok, so maybe that's what our ideal state looks like in 2 years time: we are all working towards the same goal
14:48:27 <antonela> maybe we dont want to be a browser vendor (!) and we want to focus on the network, that changes our focus
14:48:41 <antonela> that is what i mean when is not *our* vision isolated from the project
14:49:31 <hiro> imo tor browser is a tool to use the tor network
14:49:45 <pili> hiro: +1
14:49:48 <kevun> +1
14:49:53 <ailanthus> +1
14:50:02 <pili> I can't see that there are (m)any usable alternatives
14:50:03 <hiro> if in the future tor will be fully supported in another project it will not be our main focus
14:50:17 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> Tor Browser is a more concrete way for ordinary people to understand the Tor Network
14:50:23 <hiro> now
14:50:26 <antonela> mmm
14:50:40 <hiro> in 2 or 3 or 5 years time tor browser might be fully integrated in a number of other browsers
14:50:50 <slacktopus> <elioqoshi> So it helps drive the message home  Of course we want to also focus on the Network, but telling the story throughout the Browser is easier I beliebe
14:51:09 <hiro> in a way that we like (i.e. these browser support our privacy and security requirements)
14:51:16 <antonela> mmm hiro, the Tor network will be integrated with other browsers, probably less secure than Tor Browser but more usable
14:51:20 <pili> going back quickly to what antonela said, another part of this would be for the UX team to be able to influence the direction and focus of the other teams at Tor
14:51:58 <hiro> if the browsers are less secure there will always be a reason to develop tor browser
14:52:08 <pili> unfortunately we will always have this conflict between usability and security
14:52:12 <hiro> if the browser adopt our requirements then we might support that development
14:52:19 <pili> and "normal" vs "high risk" users
14:52:21 <dunqan> + 1 elioqoshi – the browser is the easiest way to visualise the network, as a newbie, if that makes sense
14:52:33 <dunqan> it's like a gateway tool I suppose
14:53:06 <pili> ok, we have 5 more minutes, any last comments from anyone?
14:53:07 <hiro> now it is the only gateway for "normal" users
14:53:37 <hiro> but when there will be other tools like onionshare then it will not :) one can only hope
14:53:45 <antonela> with that statement hiro, should we focus on make the tor network more usable via tor browser?
14:54:38 <antonela> lets say, latency, website brokerage, captchas, all what kevun have in papers
14:55:00 <pili> I think we shouldn't just necessarily concentrate on the Tor Browser
14:55:13 <pili> think of how many relays we could have if we made that experience easier :)
14:55:15 <hiro> yes... but that's just a part of it... if we want also applications developers to use the tor network we will need to move the focus towards things like software libraries and so on
14:55:26 <kevun> Relay UX is something I'm also interested in looking at.
14:55:29 <pili> of course, this is if we had unlimited resources ;)
14:55:31 <ailanthus> pili  usability is finding ways for more people to easily use Tor network
14:55:47 <ailanthus> maybe?
14:55:57 <pili> ailanthus: I agree :)
14:55:59 <ailanthus> and that currently includes in large part the browser
14:56:05 <ailanthus> but may change
14:56:21 <pili> and we can also make it easier for people to contribute to the Tor network in other ways
14:56:33 <T_> Absolutely
14:57:31 <pili> thanks for the great discussion everyone :)
14:57:39 <kevun> It was interesting!
14:57:54 <T_> I've learnt so much. Thanks!
14:57:55 <kevun> I'll try to make these meetings from now on. The time is early for me (I'm not a morning person) but I definitely want to be involved.
14:57:56 <pili> I will write up and email and we can carry on there if we want ;)
14:57:56 <dunqan> 100%, I learn more every week :)
14:57:56 <antonela> yesss, glad we have all of you here today :)
14:58:00 <ailanthus> +1
14:58:26 <antonela> i need to close this meeting people, thank you so much for coming today!
14:58:33 <ailanthus> bye, all :)
14:58:41 <antonela> #endmeeting