15:01:07 <pili> #startmeeting S27 04/08
15:01:07 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Apr  8 15:01:07 2019 UTC.  The chair is pili. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:07 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:14 <asn> great
15:01:17 <asn> what's the plan pili?
15:01:18 <pili> anyone else here?
15:01:21 <pili> pad is here:
15:01:36 <pili> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/Gn6Hhmdu8WUXCAYREE4EVnSF1iN6TFtHXY6w6T5bwal
15:01:44 <pili> I thought we could go through some organisational updates first
15:01:56 * mcs is here
15:02:03 <asn> ack
15:02:06 <nickm> hihi
15:02:17 <pili> then we can go over the UX tickets with antonela since she wasn't here last week
15:02:22 <antonela> sure thing
15:02:24 <asn> great
15:02:25 <pili> then any progress updates, I don't expect any, but never know... :)
15:02:32 <pili> and then blockers and next steps
15:02:35 <pili> does that sound good?
15:02:40 <GeKo> yep
15:02:40 <asn> yep
15:02:45 <pili> I'm also open to suggestions as to what would be most helpful
15:02:51 <pili> ok, let's get started then
15:03:06 <gaba> hey
15:03:12 <pili> gaba created this very nice spreadsheet to track status: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/GcaGQ8ftDzMiQA1RJR7oSUy_CZsvk7jjM8o5tjoM4me
15:03:28 <asn> ok
15:03:32 <pili> so we can bill the funder as we complete or mostly complete activities
15:03:41 <antonela> good move
15:03:44 <pili> gaba: maybe you want to explain a bit more about that? :)
15:04:07 <gaba> that spreadsheet is one that we are using now for every sponsor that has deliverables
15:04:39 <gaba> the idea is to check on it and the team lead for the project updated it to how much completion we have for each objective/activity
15:04:49 <gaba> it is for sue and bekeela to be able to invoice the sponsor
15:05:21 <asn> when should we update it?
15:05:59 <gaba> It could be once a month asn
15:06:04 <asn> ok
15:06:20 <gaba> for the network team it may makes sense for you to update it asn as are the one more involved in this project
15:06:29 <asn> ok
15:06:32 <antonela> did we discuss some kind of timeframes for each deliverable?
15:06:52 <asn> i assigned points to the network-team ones (1point=1day)
15:06:57 <asn> and we discussed our goals for the first 3 months
15:06:58 <asn> i think
15:07:05 <pili> yup, what asn said :)
15:07:13 <pili> we can dive deeper into that this meeting
15:07:24 <antonela> great, so s27-can are 3 months deliverables, cool
15:07:44 <asn> hhmm
15:08:21 <pili> antonela: not necessarily
15:08:34 <pili> we run out of time to dig deeper into this last meeting
15:08:39 <antonela> oh i see
15:08:50 <pili> so we haven't put a proper roadmap with dates and deliverables yet
15:09:02 <pili> just a rough idea of what people should start working on
15:09:11 <pili> given the dependencies between teams
15:09:16 <antonela> ack
15:09:33 <asn> i 15:08:49 <asn> i think for network-team we should start with O1A1.1 and O1A2
15:09:34 <asn> 15:08:59 <asn> for the first 3 months
15:09:37 <asn> this was from the previous meeting
15:10:13 <asn> but we didnt go deeper/higher than that
15:11:11 <asn> antonela: btw, s27-must tickets are the ones that we consider really important, and s27-can have lower priority
15:11:21 <pili> the browser team will start with #30000
15:11:22 <asn> antonela: in some way, if we do all the s27-must tickets we are good to go.
15:11:28 <GeKo> and are kind of optional
15:11:35 <GeKo> (the -can ones)
15:11:46 <GeKo> yeah
15:12:20 <pili> that's as soon as mcs/brade are done with their 8.5 blockers and any reviews on those also
15:12:21 <pili> ideally sometime in April :)
15:12:36 <pili> (but let me know if this is going to be impossible)
15:13:07 <pili> also, gaba and I need to send monthly reports to OTF, so it would be good to have something to report on for these :)
15:13:24 <asn> hehe
15:13:27 <asn> even for april i guess :)
15:13:57 <pili> :D
15:14:03 <asn> sounds good. i think we will have something. at least from my side.
15:14:22 <pili> antonela: for the UX side I think we have #14389 and #19757
15:14:31 <pili> both with browser team input
15:14:38 <pili> to start with
15:15:08 <antonela> yep, i think we want to update that proposal made back 13 months ago, because firefox ui got updates
15:15:20 <antonela> cool, will start with those
15:15:25 <pili> thanks antonela !
15:16:32 <asn> should we go through all the obj2 activities and see how UX<->TBB interactions  should work out?
15:16:39 <gaba> antonela: are you saying that part of the proposal was already exectued in the UX side?
15:16:57 <pili> gaba: yes, if you look at the ticket there were already some UI mockups made :)
15:17:07 <pili> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/attachment/ticket/14389/14389-2.png
15:17:08 <asn> yep :)
15:17:09 <antonela> yes, i worked on that UI on my early days here
15:17:33 <antonela> so you can mark some 40% progress there :p
15:17:48 <gaba> nice, we can track that and maybe already do one invoice for it :)
15:17:49 <pili> :D
15:17:49 <asn> that's for v2 btw
15:17:55 <pili> aaah
15:18:04 <asn> but still it's def progress forward
15:18:09 <GeKo> which we might want to have as well ;)
15:18:14 <GeKo> but that's lower prio
15:18:16 <asn> right
15:18:18 <pili> asn: how does it change for v3?
15:18:30 <asn> pili: the client auth scheme (and UX) is different between v2 and v3
15:18:47 <asn> it will not look like that
15:18:48 <pili> ok, sounds like I need to do some reading on this :)
15:18:53 <asn> but it might also not look _too_ different
15:19:04 <antonela> but ye is different
15:19:41 <asn> tbh i cannot say offhand how the UI should look like, or how the UX should be for v3 right now
15:19:55 <antonela> we can work on it asn
15:19:58 <asn> the mockup is definitely the right UI/UX for v2 tho
15:20:08 <asn> antonela: yap
15:20:19 <pili> sure, maybe we can move on to discuss UX <-> TBB interactions as asn suggested :)
15:21:02 <pili> antonela: can you start work on #14389 independently to begin with or do you need some input from mcs/brade or asn?
15:21:09 <antonela> but hey i haven't touched those tickets in months, so give me this week to gain traction
15:21:10 <antonela> yes yes
15:21:23 <pili> sounds good, I think we have time
15:21:33 <antonela> groot
15:21:56 <pili> anything else to discuss on this?
15:21:57 <asn> antonela: the v3 client-auth documentation is not so good, so please get in touch if you cannot find it or have problems understanding it
15:22:35 <antonela> will do
15:22:41 <asn> i have this ticket to review this week that seems related #27680
15:22:49 <asn> i think traumschule worked on some documentation
15:22:50 <brade> asn: could you add a link to the documention in the bug?
15:23:07 <asn> a link to the documentation
15:23:10 <asn> yes!
15:23:12 <antonela> yes
15:23:42 <asn> adding some notes rihgt now
15:23:55 <pili> great, thank you!
15:25:13 <asn> ok so we have a way forward for o1a1.1
15:25:16 <asn> *o1a1
15:25:21 <asn> good stuff :)
15:25:21 <pili> ok, should we move on to status updates? or do people want to try to put some dates to deliverables first? (otherwise gaba and I can try to work on it offline and review during the following meeting with everyone)
15:25:42 <mcs> Here’s a somewhat random question: do all of the browser deliverables apply to mobile as well as desktop?
15:26:21 <pili> mcs: that's a great question :D
15:26:22 <GeKo> good question
15:26:23 <mcs> (if yes, maybe we start with desktop and then implement mobile given how busy our mobile developers are)
15:26:39 <GeKo> i'd say "no"
15:26:50 <GeKo> at least i think we did not have this on our radar for the proposal
15:26:53 <asn> pili: is it worth thinking of the UX-teams involvement with objectives other than o1a1? or we do that as the time comes?
15:27:09 <GeKo> and there is no mobile dev accounted in the budget iirc
15:27:10 <asn> GeKo: ack makes sense
15:27:34 <mcs> GeKo: sounds like another proposal opportunity (future)
15:27:37 <pili> GeKo: mcs  let me double check that quickly
15:27:41 <GeKo> but, yes, we want to have this at some point on m mobile as well
15:27:48 <pili> asn  I'll deal with your question after :)
15:27:51 <GeKo> yep
15:27:52 <asn> ya
15:27:56 <pili> unless you all want to discuss while I look it up
15:28:19 <asn> antonela: wanna discuss about more deliverables apart from the client auth one?
15:28:28 <antonela> yes sure
15:28:33 <asn> ok so let's walk through them
15:28:36 <asn> we discussed o1a1
15:28:37 <antonela> we have onion3 names
15:28:39 <antonela> ye
15:28:42 <asn> then there is o1a2
15:28:48 <asn> which is the "error on typo
15:28:53 <asn> thingie
15:29:08 <antonela> ohh
15:29:09 <antonela> yes
15:29:10 <asn> i guess there is a UX question here of how the error should be mentioned to the user
15:29:19 <asn> and this might be related to the error page of o2a4
15:29:34 <asn> like we are talking about some sort of onion-specific error page?
15:29:35 <antonela> exactly, firefox just did a good job redesigning their warnings, im not sure if that is available on ESR
15:29:38 <antonela> yes
15:29:42 <asn> ok
15:29:42 <pili> confirmed, no mobile dev time
15:29:47 <GeKo> *o2a2
15:29:52 <antonela> https://blog.mozilla.org/ux/2019/03/designing-better-security-warnings/
15:29:59 <asn> GeKo: yes o2a2 sorry
15:30:05 * asn checks article
15:30:24 <pili> jumping in on this, it makes sense to try to re-use error pages for different error situations
15:30:26 <antonela> so basically i'll need some copywriter capacity here, im thinking about wayward
15:30:40 <antonela> yes exactly pili
15:30:49 <asn> yes because o2a4 also needs an error-page
15:30:59 <asn> (o2a4 is the one about giving more detailed errors about HSes failing)
15:31:06 <antonela> BUT not sure when it will be available on ESR, maybe is now, idk
15:31:21 <asn> antonela: what is copywriter?
15:31:22 * asn clueless
15:31:27 <antonela> yep, default error pages are a good pattern to follow
15:31:37 <antonela> is a person who writes the text that users will read
15:31:40 <asn> aaah
15:31:53 <asn> ok
15:31:56 * pili takes some notes on other people dependencies
15:32:05 <asn> i was imagining we would just hack some text together :P
15:32:09 <antonela> yes we can
15:32:10 <antonela> but
15:32:16 <antonela> is good to have a review
15:32:21 <asn> yes def
15:32:36 <antonela> and if we can anticipate that need then i dont need to send emails the day after the release to ask for review
15:32:52 <asn> sounds good
15:33:12 <antonela> what else
15:33:15 <asn> move on?
15:33:22 <asn> should we go to the next objective?
15:33:25 <asn> is this helpful to anyone?
15:33:42 <antonela> i think so, yes
15:33:45 <asn> ok great
15:33:47 <asn> let's go to o2a3
15:33:54 <asn> this is the alt-svc/onion-location thing
15:34:01 <antonela> my fav one
15:34:08 <asn> yeah we made some plans on this in mexico
15:34:19 <asn> and i think we also have mockups there
15:34:24 <asn> that we could give to otf for april
15:34:40 <pili> wow, that would be awesome
15:34:50 <antonela> do you think so?
15:34:53 <asn> let me see
15:34:54 <asn> let me find the ticket
15:35:01 <GeKo> antonela: could you add the moz blog link to the relevant ticket so we don't forget about it?
15:35:02 <antonela> i mean, i want to go with the pill UI
15:35:20 <asn> i guess https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/21952 is the closest we have here
15:35:38 <antonela> on UI side we have two components, the url bar and the circuit display, when we are redirecting the user, besides the opt-in (we will need a global setting for it too), we should update the circuit displau
15:36:00 <antonela> i'll add all this userflow to the ticket, just sharing here what we have been discussed
15:36:02 <antonela> geko, yes one sec
15:36:03 <asn> yeah we have some old mockups in #21952, but i think you have changed to a new design antonela
15:36:14 <asn> there is a dif ticket for the circ display
15:36:31 <asn> #27590
15:36:41 <asn> (all these are s27-must)
15:36:42 <antonela> yeah those two
15:36:49 <pili> also, please add any missing tickets to the parents if you find them
15:37:15 <asn> pili: so far so good
15:37:30 <asn> antonela: so perhaps this is for the next 3-month period.
15:37:38 <asn> antonela: or for the next-next 3 month period
15:37:46 <antonela> good plan, i think we can do it
15:37:47 <asn> antonela: since its a pretty self contained thing
15:38:19 <pili> +1
15:38:21 <antonela> geko? what do you think?
15:38:44 <GeKo> about doing o2a3 next?
15:39:01 <GeKo> that is after o2a1
15:39:12 <asn> pili: imo we should at some point sooner-or-later make some sort of year-long roadmap. because talking about abstract 3-months is convenient but might backfire.
15:39:25 <asn> *sooner-than-later
15:39:37 <pili> asn: I agree
15:39:42 <GeKo> fwiw i expect that we won't work on any s27 proposal stuff during july-october
15:39:42 <asn> not sure if we have time in this meeting unfortunately
15:39:57 <GeKo> because at that time we need to get tor browser 9 ready
15:40:02 <asn> ack
15:40:07 <asn> we should also take that into account
15:40:24 <pili> noted
15:40:24 <antonela> Geko, that means that devs will work on it before july? or after october?
15:40:43 <GeKo> yes
15:40:54 <antonela> got it
15:40:57 <GeKo> either which we can decide
15:41:10 <GeKo> and which depends on how fast we are with o2a1
15:41:20 <antonela> okey, good to know
15:41:27 <GeKo> (assuming o2a3 is strictly following on that one)
15:41:52 <pili> GeKo: that sounds fine with me
15:41:53 <GeKo> i mean we might be able to make exceptions
15:41:54 <asn> would it be too crazy from me to ask from ux/tb teams to add points to the -must tickets so that we can roadmap easily in the next meeting?
15:42:03 <GeKo> but i'll push quite a bit against those
15:42:20 <GeKo> we are not used to the points business
15:42:20 <pili> but we still need to do the estimation wor
15:42:21 <pili> asn: not crazy at all, this is something we want to do soon
15:42:24 <GeKo> but we could try
15:42:36 <antonela> yes, we need estimation
15:42:43 <asn> GeKo: you can use your own metric
15:42:43 <pili> this has been blocked on me getting around to organising a meeting on this
15:42:44 <antonela> i can give estimation of my hard work + 2x for reviews lol
15:43:33 <pili> but if people want to give it a try without discussing first we can also do that
15:43:37 <asn> antonela: ye not sure how to factor review-delay in the estimation
15:43:55 <asn> i just do an eyeball estimation and then add some extra time for review delays and other delays usually
15:44:19 <pili> asn: that's not something the network team currently does, right? other than estimating how many days per week are spent on roadmap work?
15:44:24 <antonela> yes, we can estimate it, is an estimation
15:44:29 <pili> asn: fair enough
15:44:30 <asn> pili: what do you mean?
15:45:06 <GeKo> pili: i am fine trying it ou without discussion
15:45:15 <GeKo> you could bring it up on the meeting today later on
15:45:17 <pili> GeKo: sure, we can then refine as we go
15:45:20 <pili> ok
15:45:25 <GeKo> or we could just start that with s27
15:45:26 <pili> asn: well, from what I understand the network team estimates how many days per week they spend on roadmap wor
15:45:37 <GeKo> and then adapt to other parts from what we learn
15:45:37 <pili> and all other time is spent or reviews, ci, other stuff?
15:45:50 <asn> pili: true
15:46:03 <asn> pili: exactly
15:46:18 <pili> so review points are not counted here
15:46:21 <pili> in the sense that they are non-roadmap work
15:46:22 <pili> anyway
15:46:29 <asn> true
15:46:30 <asn> you are right
15:46:50 <pili> ok, shall we move on? :)
15:46:59 <asn> so in terms of
15:47:00 <asn> 15:42 < antonela> i can give estimation of my hard work + 2x for reviews lol
15:47:14 <asn> when we talk about points it's about how much time it takes you to finish it up approx
15:47:24 <pili> ah, yes, sorry, so for tickets that require both ux and tbb work we should add up both points
15:47:25 <asn> and not "how much time the whole thing is gonna take including reviews and everything"
15:47:51 <pili> maybe it would help if devs and antonela comment on their tickets with their points estimation
15:47:59 <pili> and I can go round afterwards adding up ;)
15:48:00 <antonela> also, to be honest, review time could be strict to the time plan we have for delivery, so lets say we have 2 weeks for review, and then done
15:48:18 <antonela> this is why having a deadline is critical, even if we need one more week after it
15:48:56 <asn> antonela: yes, reviews should be prioritized
15:49:09 <pili> antonela:+1 we'll bake this into the plan :)
15:49:18 <asn> ok let's move on with the objectives, if everyone is ok with that
15:49:27 <asn> we were at o2a3 the alt-svc thing
15:49:40 <asn> and we said we have some mockups in #21952, but the plan has changed, and more work is required
15:49:45 <asn> and also the circuit display stuff
15:49:48 <antonela> yep
15:49:51 <asn> but that's for later, so no need to go deeper
15:49:56 <asn> let's go with o2a4
15:50:13 <asn> here we have an error-page thing with more details
15:50:20 <asn> so while o2a2 is just "you have  a typo in your onion"
15:50:29 <asn> o2a4 can have "the HS seems to be down"
15:50:34 <asn> or "your guard seems to be down"
15:50:45 <asn> or "there is something wrong with your network"
15:50:48 <asn> these are just examles
15:50:49 <antonela> exactly, the ui remains, the ux could change, like we could offer users the chance to reload for example
15:50:57 <asn> aha
15:51:01 <asn> hep
15:51:02 <asn> yep
15:51:21 <asn> and o2a4 also has an SSL component
15:51:27 <asn> which is about accepting slf-signed certs and some stuff like that
15:51:46 <antonela> we should have a list of all the errors we could have, i'll prepare that when i work on o2a2, and we can extend it once o2a4
15:51:49 <antonela> yes
15:51:58 <asn> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/13410
15:52:00 <asn> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/27636
15:52:01 <asn> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/27657
15:52:18 <pili> antonela:do you want me to create a ticket for figuring out all the errors? as a child ticket?
15:52:21 <asn> antonela: yes. this is also pending network-team work, because we need to see what info we are currently exposing.
15:52:28 <pili> just to do some breakdown
15:52:39 <asn> pili: could be useful yes
15:52:47 <antonela> pili, yes could be mapping .onion errors
15:52:56 <antonela> well, something more specific too
15:53:23 <pili> ok, we have 7 minutes as there's a meeting in here soon
15:53:26 <asn> ok
15:53:30 <antonela> what else
15:53:31 <asn> and finally we have o2a5
15:53:35 <asn> which is the https-e thing
15:53:40 <antonela> yeah, next lifef
15:53:43 <antonela> haha
15:53:44 <asn> next life
15:53:44 <pili> did anyone get in touch with bill or jenn? :)
15:53:51 <asn> pili: no i havent had the time to do this
15:53:57 <asn> antonela: i think there is great stuff to be done there
15:53:58 <pili> ok, no worries, do you want me to do that?
15:53:59 <antonela> bill nor jenn are leading developers there
15:54:00 <asn> and we should think about it
15:54:11 <antonela> yes yes
15:54:12 <GeKo> but we shuld start with  bill for the eff
15:54:12 <asn> pili: i will try to do it this week
15:54:17 <GeKo> *should
15:54:18 <pili> I should have spoken to jenn last week at IFF, I completely forgot
15:54:19 <asn> i've been kinda swamped with network-team stuff over the past days
15:54:32 <asn> im trying to get them done so i can focus on this sponsor for good
15:54:39 <asn> and i will send an email as soon as possible
15:54:43 <antonela> no worries, we can start a conversation offline
15:54:44 <antonela> yes
15:54:49 <asn> i think this is again for not this 3-month period :)
15:54:52 <asn> so we have time to make it happen
15:54:57 <pili> asn: nope, we definitely have time :)
15:55:02 <asn> i think we can do good stuff here. at least im pretty hyped
15:55:08 <asn> ok
15:55:13 <asn> so we done with objectives and stuff
15:55:20 <pili> I also had for GeKo to contact cloudflare and/or facebook
15:55:27 <pili> is that still ok GeKo ?
15:55:36 <pili> or do you want to do it after Easter?
15:55:51 <gaba> asn: confirming that you are going to be working on this only 2 days a week, right? roadmap stuff
15:56:10 <asn> gaba: yes approx
15:56:15 <asn> i have 8 points a month righ tnow
15:56:26 <antonela> asn the humans are Alexis Hancock <alexis[at]eff.org> the dev, <andres[at]eff.org> the pm
15:56:29 <asn> seems to be working well for me. it's exactly as much as i can handle
15:56:39 <asn> antonela: who are these humans?
15:56:43 <pili> ok, any other status updates
15:56:44 <pili> blockers?
15:56:52 <asn> not for me
15:56:53 <antonela> asn eff humans working on httpse
15:56:56 <asn> antonela: ack ack
15:57:05 <asn> and what is bill doing?
15:57:11 <asn> pili: so next meeting in two weeks?
15:57:14 <asn> so that david is also around?
15:57:18 <pili> yup, 23rd April
15:57:21 <antonela> not sure what is bill doing rn
15:57:24 <asn> and hopefully have points assigned by then?
15:57:31 <pili> I hope to have a roadmap with dates also
15:57:32 <asn> so all s27-must tickets have points assigned so we can roadmap that?
15:57:40 <pili> yup
15:57:53 <asn> if i have points on the tickets, i can make a draft roadmap real quick and then discuss with everyone
15:57:57 <asn> but perhaps we can do it altogether
15:58:08 <asn> not sure what's the best way to do roadmap with dates over irc
15:58:17 <pili> well, we could also try to do that next meeting if it's not too late
15:58:25 <asn> i dont think it's too late
15:58:36 <GeKo> pili: if asn does  not want to talk to cf and fb i can pick this up
15:58:36 <asn> if we have the points i think it's gonna be easy
15:58:45 <pili> ok, well, see what you can draft and if you don't get around to it we'll do it together
15:58:46 <gaba> i added a 'timeline' sheet to the spreadsheet on status to try to draft a timeline based on capacity
15:58:51 <GeKo> but i probably won't get to it before next week
15:59:00 <pili> we can use gaba's status spreadsheet
15:59:02 <GeKo> thus it will be after easter
15:59:07 <pili> ok, let's wrap this up!! :)
15:59:12 <asn> ok wraping it up
15:59:15 <pili> everyone good?
15:59:16 <asn> thanks for the meeting everyone!
15:59:21 <asn> see you on the 23rd
15:59:23 <pili> can continue on tor-dev if necessary
15:59:26 <pili> cool, thanks everyone!
15:59:27 <pili> #endmeeting