15:01:51 #startmeeting sponsor 30 monthly checkin 2019-10-07 15:01:51 Meeting started Mon Oct 7 15:01:51 2019 UTC. The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:01:51 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 15:02:08 we have the pad for the agenda here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/sponsor30-agenda-notes-Y1-keep 15:02:13 hello! 15:02:58 The idea for today is to agree on how we are going to coordinate work and start working. 15:03:29 I added an agenda for what I think we need to discuss or be on the same page about. 15:03:40 Can people please, review it? 15:04:08 At the top of the pad there are a few documents I will use to track work. The timeline documetn is based on what we sent to the sponsor BUT we can change it 15:04:24 yep 15:04:31 In the timeline I also added info on which team is getting each objectivity and activity 15:04:35 Please, review it 15:05:03 For obj 2 and 3 we are going to track work in trac (for now) under a master ticket 15:05:22 For obj 1 I still need to talk with sbs and hellais on how we are going to track work in github. 15:05:36 For OONI we are going to be tracking it using a dedicated project board which I linked in the pad 15:05:43 thanks 15:05:50 It’s this one: https://github.com/orgs/ooni/projects/18 15:06:18 We also have agreed with @sbs that in light of the fact that I am going to be moving into becoming a more full time PM for OONI I will in fact be the main point of contact for the DRL anticensorship grant 15:06:19 is everybody ok with this agenda and/or want to add anything else? 15:06:32 oh! ok 15:06:39 the agenda looks good for me gaba 15:06:53 yep, looks good 15:07:25 +1 15:07:53 First, I want us to do monthly meetings instead of weekly or biweekly. It seems to me that it may be enough for the work that needs to be done. We can change it if needed. 15:08:30 groot, second monday of each month? 15:08:37 Sorry, one thing I forgot to say about this pad for the meetings. At the bottom of the page I added a space for updates on the work that has been done and any blocker that people may have. 15:08:42 yes antonela 15:08:49 at this time? 15:08:55 works for me 15:08:59 does 15 UTC work for people? 15:09:04 yep 15:09:08 works for me 15:09:33 yes 15:09:36 * GeKo stumbles in 15:09:51 :+1: 15:10:00 wait, this is the first monday of this month 15:10:17 so next one will be 11th of november? 15:10:20 yes ahf, but second is ok too :) 15:10:37 * ahf nods 15:11:10 ok. Can people confirm when your team is starting to work on this and availability for this sponsor for the next month? 15:11:18 for the next 3 months 15:11:29 gaba, could we first talk about scope of this sponsor? 15:11:37 ok 15:12:02 > ok. Can people confirm when your team is starting to work on this and availability for this sponsor for the next month? The OONI team is going to start working on this project starting from November 2019 as we are currently maxed out with wrapping up OTF 2019 15:12:50 About scope for this sponsor 15:15:14 so, i hope this grant allows us to improve the entire censored user flow: discovering, finding, downloading tor browser and connecting and browsing the tor network 15:15:35 the ux team specific objective is O3 but in order to have a successful deliverable there, we need to improve all the flow 15:15:52 the focus of anti-censorship team for this is to improve bridges 15:16:09 tickets under activities are good, but some of them are just bug reports of the current flow, but what happen is that flow is not precisely the flow we want to have at the end of this project? 15:16:14 gaba, right 15:16:41 and for community the focus is to help increase number of bridges as well as documentation 15:17:08 yes, we need to create tickets and some of them we will only be able to do once we have user stories and that flow imporved 15:17:37 my 2 cents is that this could be a good opportunity to look at all the tickets that have been created around bridges and to define a solution to close these, either because we have solved them or because we have decided on a different way of doing things 15:18:00 phw already have been doing this for objective 2 15:18:03 yep, bug reporting tickets are informative of the work we should do, of course 15:18:17 not necessarily addressing each one individually, but as a whole, the way antonela does so well already ;) 15:18:29 pili: +1 15:18:45 i agree with antonela, this is a good opportunity to get creative and hopefully innovate -- instead of just spending a lot of time fixing tickets with little impact. 15:18:55 im thinking in something, and im not sure what others think but: what if we set up a Tor Browser release (maybe 9.5) as the major release for this sponsor improvements? and for that release we collapse and merge all the different efforts we are doing corss team 15:19:00 grr, cross-team 15:19:19 antonela: something like https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29590 ? 15:19:20 that's too early i think 15:19:27 and other similar changes? 15:19:28 sysrqb: yes, or other things 15:20:06 this is something we do not have to think here as teh first meeting 15:20:47 oki 15:20:56 fair enough 15:21:01 but I agree with you antonelaon looking at the whole activity 15:21:56 and close tickets, not just fixing bugs 15:22:35 anyway, next would be that each team needs to look at the objective that you are involved in and we need to setup some time to creeate tickets 15:22:48 right 15:22:53 what does not fall under this sponsor is a good question 15:23:26 ok. what does not fall under this sponsor? :) 15:24:00 im thinking more in technical limitations, devs? 15:25:20 anyone on this? 15:26:14 the network team components of this wont be very user visible as far as i can tell, but anything that makes it easier to use bridges with tor fits under this? 15:26:37 ahf: there was a question before about O2.3.3 " Improve ability for bridgedb/authority to test bridges that only expose a pluggable transport." and what it implies, right? 15:27:22 yeah, i think the network team would like to know a bit more explicitly what this one means for us, because it is potentially quite a change 15:27:59 one part is to have bridges with no vanilla tor bridge connection and pts only, another is to enable authorities to test these 15:29:23 phw: you are going to work with the network team on this 15:29:36 on the timeline, what does the red text (in the first column) mean? 15:30:01 it means that I need people to review that it is right. Those are the teams working on those specific tasks 15:30:14 gaba: yes. #30477 is also part of this issue. at this point it's not quite clear yet what the best solution is. 15:30:31 ah, okay, thanks 15:30:48 and #31874 15:31:12 right, there are multiple ways to do this 15:31:36 one is to let bridgedb do it? the other is to let tor do it via the bridge auth? 15:32:45 ahf: yes, bridgedb is one option. the problem is that if the PT doesn't work, it's difficult to notify the user. having the bridge self-test it is another option, but this approach may be complex and we don't want to give exits the ability to enumerate bridges (see nickm's last comment in #30477) 15:33:11 this seems like a question that should be resolved next year while working on O2.3 :) 15:33:12 yeah 15:33:17 yes 15:33:24 sysrqb: ideally sooner than next year ;) 15:33:35 phw: ideally, yes :) 15:33:46 fwiw, i think this would not require a lot of work on bridgedb's side 15:34:40 we could then propagate all the information to collector, and condition bridge operators to always check relay search to see if their bridge is online. 15:34:59 * phw refrains from further derailing the meeting 15:35:28 ok. Next we will need teams to look at the timeline, check that is right and/or make modifications AND we need to work on any ticket that could be filled now for the work that needs to be done. I can work with each time to do this outside the meeting. 15:36:01 good, i owe you that gaba 15:36:17 slightly off topic, but do we have a possible date for the next in-person tor meeting? 15:36:27 can you all look at the timeline document and see if those activities are right ? Otherwise please ask questions here 15:36:28 o2.3 will benefit from that, in particular 15:36:42 then I will work with each of you to get this done 15:37:20 so far we need browser, ux, metrics and network team leads/liasons for this project to work on tickets for this deliverable and check timelines. 15:37:38 the timeline is very useful! 15:37:38 sysrqb: (i think feb 2020 does not sound unreasonable to assume) 15:37:56 I heard feb 2020 for in person yes 15:37:59 * antonela feels summer in latam 15:38:02 GeKo: okay, thanks 15:38:09 that is helpful 15:38:28 are people checking at this holy timeline? :) 15:39:33 i am! 15:40:03 the questions I have for you are 15:40:06 @gaba I think the timeline for the OONI items is a bit out of sync with what we have in our own roadmap 15:40:11 (for you all looking at the timeline) 15:40:13 do you need to collaborate with some other team that is not there? 15:40:16 Should I make changes to it directly in the document? 15:40:17 is your team be able to work on that specific activity? 15:40:22 yes please hellais 15:40:50 I was thinking about checking also with you later on how you are going to be organize this at OONI in github but yes, please change the timeline for Obj1 15:41:07 Hum I don’t have edit access 15:41:16 oh, just a sec 15:41:19 can you refresh first? 15:41:26 You should have access to our timeline inside of the OONI trello board called “Roadmap” 15:41:35 There is a label called “DRL anticensorship” 15:41:52 yes, still let's try to update this here for the whole project 15:42:28 wow this only office thing is terrible 15:42:37 haha 15:42:42 yep 15:42:43 I can’t select all and delete :( 15:42:48 mmm 15:43:09 did you refresh? sometimes it gets off when you didn't use the doc for some time.... 15:43:23 are you all able to edit this document? 15:43:33 gaba: it may be helpful to work with the community team on O2.1, A2. whoever is travelling could help us understand how our distribution mechanisms fall short. 15:44:11 sounds good 15:44:12 phw: we're not going to be travelling much in the short term unfortunately 15:44:21 ggus: might know more though :) 15:44:38 we could do some remote testing on this though 15:44:41 pili: okay, np 15:45:24 phw: yep, we don't have travels very soon. But we can coordinate with partners in Uganda, for example. 15:45:31 I'm adding community there for coordinate later 15:46:00 I updated it based on the OONI roadmap 15:46:07 thanks 15:46:12 Though we have much more activities than those listed in that document 15:46:37 ggus: that may be helpful -- i'll get back to you on that, ok? 15:46:46 ok :) 15:46:53 For O2 we have anti-censorship team already started and working on O2.1 O2.2 and O2.4 now in October. 15:46:54 * cohosh is here lurking 15:47:07 antonela: you said you can start in november, right? 15:47:14 * har00ga also lurkz 15:47:19 gaba, yes 15:47:32 For O3 we have anti-censorship team starting in October on O3.1 15:47:47 phw: anything that may be blocked by antonela's work so far? 15:48:04 As a heads up at OONI we are planning to wrap up the DRL anticensorship grant by end of July 2020 15:48:38 gaba: no, i think we have plenty to work on in the meanwhile. 15:48:50 antonela: gaba: do you see O2.1 A2 and O3.2 A2 as different pieces? I see them 15:48:59 After that we are going to keep providing support for the things we have worked on, but it will not be a priority for us anymore 15:49:11 is O2.1 A2 more technical and O3.2 A2 more UI/UX? 15:50:05 sysrqb: one is about bridges.tpo and the other about tor browser, but we should think about them holistically because fixing those parts isolated maybe doesn't fix the entire flow at the end 15:50:12 O3.2 A2 seems more about training and documentation too 15:50:32 actually not. Yes more UI 15:51:08 hellais: ok. please add any info on any other team you may need to work with 15:51:25 antonela: gaba: okay, thanks. we should be smart about how we accomplish those tasks :) 15:51:26 yes, O3.2 in my mind is something that can help censored users on 1. noticing what is going on (nowadays tor launcher just fails) 2. empower them to recover and connect 15:52:18 > hellais: ok. please add any info on any other team you may need to work with Where should I add this? 15:52:18 one thing we could use help with is bridgedb's captcha: it's in bad shape and if anyone has ideas on replacing or improving it, please let me know. 15:52:27 sysrqb: when does your team can start to work on this? 15:52:47 antonela: okay, so this includes tor browser "detecting" censorship and providing solutions 15:53:06 maybe? if is part of the scope :) 15:53:13 sysrqb: i hope so! 15:53:24 gaba: i believe we'll start at the end of this year 15:53:31 hellais: mention it here and add it to the first column of the spreadsheet 15:53:32 pili: GeKo: yes? ^ 15:53:38 sysrqb: and there is where the ooni part needs to be useful for us too 15:54:03 O3.2 A2? 15:54:15 @sbs probably knows more, but I suspect some input/help from the network team for the Tor integration may be useful and perhaps some help from whoever maintains the pluggable transports these days 15:54:15 antonela: right. that is the "easier" part of this, where we already know where censorship exists 15:54:50 sysrqb: at the last dev meeting we talked about a hard-coded "table" in tor browser that encodes what works in what country. 15:55:06 phw: yeah, that is what i'd imagine (as a starting point) 15:55:09 tor browser could then figure out where it is, consult the table, and tell the user "you're in country foo, so you need to use PT bar" 15:55:36 (see #28531 for more context) 15:56:21 yep, that is the plan i think we have 15:56:22 sysrqb: I think we could start later if we needed to 15:56:31 pili: in general. 15:56:34 although I wouldn't be opposed to starting earlier if all the other pieces are in place 15:56:39 pili: yeah, i was just thinking that, too 15:56:59 and we may need to help earlier 15:56:59 I think for this sponsor there was no browser team work planned for the first 3 months due to the ESR transition 15:57:00 ok. anything else for this meeting? 15:57:12 but none of our objectives are scheduled until next year 15:57:23 because we thought it was going to start earlier 15:57:24 so end of the year sounds about right 15:57:25 we can review :) 15:57:36 yep :) 15:57:42 ok 15:57:51 phw: ack, i think an in-person meeting will help with deciding how we handle it 15:57:58 sysrqb: yes, agreed 15:58:01 (which was why i asked that question about timing) 15:58:21 last thing, people who is going to be in taipei, can we sync about this sponsor in person? 15:58:30 * phw nods 15:58:31 ooni, phw, me 15:58:41 lets do it offline, will send an email 15:59:02 thanks antonela 15:59:14 sysrqb: yes, end of the year sounds reasonable 15:59:31 kk 16:00:04 sounds good 16:00:29 i'm going to end the meeting here then 16:00:34 #endmeeting