14:07:42 <hiro> #startmeeting
14:07:42 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Dec  5 14:07:42 2019 UTC.  The chair is hiro. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:07:42 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:08:01 <hiro> #topic dev website planning
14:08:05 <emmapeel> i would rather finish the community portal first, but i am not taking deadlines into account
14:08:26 <hiro> I think there is not deadline atm for the dev website
14:08:46 <pili> right, no deadline for dev portal
14:08:53 <pili> would be nice to get it started
14:09:11 <pili> maybe people will feel like playing with it over christmas ;P
14:09:24 <hiro> we dn't work over xmas
14:09:36 <emmapeel> ut xmas is time for watching ccc streams!
14:09:39 <pili> I know, me neither :)
14:09:49 <hiro> I don't think we should plan on that time to do the dev portal
14:10:12 <hiro> ok I think it's ok to mve the dev portal to january
14:10:25 <hiro> I think we would get most of the feedback during the dev meeting anyways
14:10:38 <pili> yup
14:10:39 <hiro> so there is no point to rush this in december.. it's a short month already
14:11:16 <hiro> oook!
14:11:27 <hiro> #topic web statistics
14:11:31 <hiro> lol
14:11:43 <emmapeel> nice!
14:11:56 <hiro> ok so.. I did some digging... we have all the data already in collector
14:12:01 <hiro> but it's not easy to read
14:12:26 <hiro> also if we were to install something like matomo or phantom we would have some issues because of how we serve the websites
14:12:58 <hiro> we serve the static files from different web servers, so we would need to have a way for the client to talk to the analytics service.. rpbably in JS
14:13:11 <hiro> which wouldn't probably work on tb in high security mode
14:13:23 <hiro> but since we have the data... we can send this data to some dashboard
14:13:26 <antonela> hola! i got distracted
14:13:50 <hiro> I was thinking to see if we can use grafana... since we already have it installed
14:14:03 <hiro> and it might work but maybe we need soemthing a bit easier to use
14:14:11 <emmapeel> i would like to know about 404s and locales in the website
14:14:20 <hiro> so there is where I am with this... evaluating what we can run
14:14:50 <hiro> emmapeel the dashboard will be able to give you this info yeah
14:15:24 <hiro> maybe we could even run phantom but we send the data from collctor instead that sending the live data from the clients
14:15:49 <emmapeel> i think we should think as if all the users were using TBB
14:15:54 <pili> I’m interested in the difference between number of hits to /download vs actual versions downloaded
14:16:01 <pili> emmapeel: +1
14:16:09 <hiro> that's what we always do
14:16:29 <hiro> all the websites are designed so that everything works with tbb in high security mode
14:16:47 <hiro> also we anonymise most of the logs already
14:16:50 * emmapeel raises the security level
14:17:09 <emmapeel> no, i am on standard tbh :D
14:17:27 <hiro> so if you check the logs I pasted https://pad.riseup.net/redirect#https%3A//dip.torproject.org/torproject/web/tpo/issues/22 you can see we don't have things like IPs or other info
14:17:46 <hiro> you can scratch the redirect :P
14:18:04 <hiro> that's what we will have to work with
14:18:31 <hiro> and I think that's already enough...
14:19:13 <hiro> I was also looking at this https://www.metabase.com
14:19:28 <hiro> we send there the data from collector
14:19:35 <ggus> i use metabase a lot
14:19:38 <hiro> and we are able to answer questions
14:19:41 <hiro> oh see nice!
14:19:48 <ggus> i use for relays
14:20:01 <pili> I think the data that we have is fine
14:20:09 <hiro> we could even use it for all the collector data
14:20:34 <hiro> I sent an email to irl to see how he felt about this and if he had some tip... and if was there some dahsboard that he liked more...
14:20:47 <hiro> so maybe we could use metabase for other stuff too
14:21:06 <emmapeel> looks nice
14:21:10 <ggus> https://www.dustri.org/b/exploring-the-tor-dataset-with-metabase.html
14:21:16 <ggus> #link https://www.dustri.org/b/exploring-the-tor-dataset-with-metabase.html
14:21:52 <hiro> yep!
14:23:06 <ggus> hiro: if you point me where i can find the weblogs, i could try to play with metabase next next week
14:23:19 <hiro> sure
14:23:39 <hiro> https://collector.torproject.org/recent/webstats/
14:23:46 <hiro> #link https://collector.torproject.org/recent/webstats/
14:24:03 <hiro> these are the logs for all the webservers
14:24:56 <hiro> ok, I think we can talk more about webstats when we have more info
14:25:01 <hiro> shall we move on?
14:25:05 <ggus> thanks!
14:25:06 <ggus> yes
14:25:18 <hiro> #topic glossary/vocabulary
14:25:22 <emmapeel> next point the glossary .. i was meant to think about this but i haven' t gotten to it. if we pass it for next week maybe i can work on it and prepare the point better (like, with a proposal after talking to people). for example i think we should get a list of requirements because for example i think maybe we are talking about different things, like "spelling rules", "concepts for newbies" and "trans
14:25:29 <emmapeel> lation rules"
14:25:34 <hiro> oook
14:25:43 <hiro> so this goes for next week
14:26:03 <hiro> ok next!
14:26:15 <hiro> #topic some pages shouldn't be translated
14:26:22 <hiro> \o/
14:26:31 <hiro> I'd like to understand this a lil more
14:26:45 <hiro> what does it actually mean? that the body doesn't get translated?
14:26:54 <hiro> but the rest of the page does?
14:26:56 <antonela> yes
14:27:00 <hiro> (like menu and footer?)
14:27:03 <pili> yes
14:27:22 <antonela> im thinking in something like a custom header, where we can say : `l10n: nope`
14:27:52 <pili> e.g https://www.torproject.org/about/cy-pres/ shouldn't get translated as it's purely a US thing
14:27:53 <pili> antonela:yes!
14:28:03 <pili> e.g in the content.lr file
14:28:19 <hiro> so that would require that I patch the plugin... and one thing that I can do is that I make a model that has translate: false in the fields that we don't want translated
14:28:34 <hiro> and we use _model: page-ln10-no
14:28:35 <pili> right, and if the field isn't there, then the default is to translate
14:28:38 <hiro> or something like that
14:28:43 <pili> so we don't have to add it to all the pages that we already have
14:28:50 <antonela> hiro exactly, that may work
14:28:54 <antonela> *might
14:28:57 <irl> (oops i forgot about the dashboard thing)
14:28:59 <hiro> sounds good then
14:29:12 <hiro> irl no rush! you can get back to me when you have time
14:29:18 <irl> ok will try to do this today
14:29:35 <hiro> thanks!!
14:29:58 <hiro> ok! so finally the big topic for this week
14:30:04 <hiro> #topic download page
14:30:17 <hiro> antonela it's all yours
14:30:55 <antonela> yeah, im hearing all the concerns around the download page
14:31:16 <antonela> im wondering how urgent it is and what we can do in the short term and what we want to discover in the long term
14:31:26 <pili> right
14:31:33 <antonela> like, making franky tweaks is doable - i dont want to do those
14:31:52 <pili> so the first thing is whether this is somehow worse since the fundraising banner was added
14:31:53 <antonela> and also im open to merge those iterations if someone has a patch that improves something
14:31:59 <pili> and one suggestion was to only have the banner in the landing page
14:32:05 <pili> and not the download page
14:32:14 <pili> I ran this by the fundraising team and they're fine with doing that
14:32:21 <antonela> pili maybe? we can remove the banner from the download page yes
14:32:25 <pili> hiro: is it possible to just have the banner on the landing page?
14:32:26 <hiro> http://images.wikia.com/austinally/images/6/65/Baby_frankenstein.jpg
14:32:35 <emmapeel> the banner is quite cumbersome for me at least.
14:32:35 <pili> I think that would be the first thing to try
14:32:39 <hiro> yeah pili we can do that
14:32:40 * antonela is a baby yoda friend
14:32:55 <antonela> the second thing is adding multiple download buttons to each os
14:33:20 <antonela> which is horrible and makes me prefer to track people operative systems and give them just what they need :/
14:33:23 <antonela> but then, we can do it
14:33:26 <pili> :)
14:34:05 <antonela> i just want people who makes suggestions to take a look at regular browser download pages
14:34:18 <antonela> https://chrome.com/download/
14:34:24 <antonela> firefox.com/download
14:34:33 <antonela> https://www.opera.com/download
14:34:43 <antonela> https://brave.com/download/
14:34:48 <emmapeel> yeah i think we should not have the download button on the top right of the page that forwards to the download page again. (https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/32460#comment:4 )
14:35:03 <emmapeel> (pastly' s proposal)
14:35:14 <emmapeel> i mean, on the download page we should nto have it
14:35:27 <emmapeel> and maybe we can remove the footer too
14:35:39 <emmapeel> the footer download link, when you are on the download page
14:35:40 <antonela> we can solve the header problems just using a new header-min i made for https://styleguide.torproject.org/
14:36:17 <hiro> https://brave.com/download/ <- has the download button on top right
14:36:19 <emmapeel> yeah i think that would be good
14:36:38 <emmapeel> yeah whatever maybe they are confusing users as well :D
14:37:07 <hiro> the thing is we will always confuse some users
14:37:17 <pili> interesting
14:37:23 <emmapeel> ut to be fair, in brave you get a bigger button in the screen without going down
14:37:25 <pili> I need to also check how users reach those download pages
14:37:48 <ggus> i think all these websites are detecting users OS
14:37:48 <hiro> the thing is that we do not track the op system
14:37:55 <ggus> yes
14:38:03 <hiro> so we offer all the options there on a line
14:38:04 <emmapeel> oh yeah. can we get referrals on web stats?
14:38:54 <emmapeel> hiro: but right now we offer them further down, you need to scrool to see them.
14:39:02 <pili> yeah, brave does it similar to us (minus the down arrow on the button)
14:39:20 <pili> ggus: yes, most of them do track the os
14:39:22 <emmapeel> brave provides the real button without scrolling and i think that is key
14:39:39 <emmapeel> in the download page i mean
14:39:52 <pili> yeah, but the button in the header works the same as ours
14:39:58 <pili> and then they track the OS
14:39:59 <hiro> the reason why we have to scroll is because of the banner
14:40:05 <hiro> no banner no scrolling
14:40:18 <pili> yup, step 1 is definitely remove the banner on the download page
14:40:27 <pili> and I would wait before we do some more
14:40:33 <pili> possibly after running some user tests
14:40:41 <emmapeel> #idea no banner no scrolling
14:40:42 <pili> and again, let's look at the numbers
14:41:05 <pili> we have anecdotal evidence of users experiencing issues
14:41:20 <hiro> how can we have numbers tho?
14:41:29 <hiro> is there a plan to do user research on the download page?
14:41:32 <pili> what's the percentage of users that visit "/download" and fail to actually download a pakcage
14:41:34 <emmapeel> user resarch?
14:41:45 <antonela> hiro: yes we have plans
14:42:02 <hiro> pili I don't think we can have that info from our stats
14:42:11 <hiro> we don't have session information
14:42:16 <emmapeel> i have the feeling a lot of people do not realise their tbb locale is available but i dont know how to test that
14:42:17 <pili> we don't need it
14:42:43 <hiro> do you plan on asking?
14:42:51 <ggus> pili: we could start from the tickets that we got from frontdesk
14:42:52 <pili> if we have 10 hits to /download and then 2 hits to macos pacakge, 1 hit to windows and 1 hit to linux then we know we lost 6 users
14:42:52 <pili> potentially
14:43:01 <hiro> uhm
14:43:12 <pili> e.g look at all the hits to download in a 24h period
14:43:15 <pili> and the same to dist.tpo or wherever
14:43:21 <emmapeel> and to the key!
14:43:26 <pili> yes, some people may go to dist directly
14:43:29 <emmapeel> the signing key
14:43:29 <hiro> I don't think that's accurate
14:43:35 <pili> but we can get a rough idea
14:43:58 <pili> anyway, that's the best idea I have on that
14:44:15 <hiro> we would have an idea only if the number of people that visit the /download page is much higher than the number of people that visit other pages
14:44:16 <pili> maybe metrics team have better ideas
14:45:12 <hiro> and even so I don't think that answers our question because we are assuming that crawlers visiting /download will necessarly visit other pages too
14:45:31 <hiro> so that crawler traffic is spreaded across all pages
14:45:36 <hiro> but it might not be the case
14:45:47 <ggus> why we don't use the feedback from real people on frontdesk?
14:45:52 <antonela> anyways, next move is 1. remove the banner 2. use a simplified header and 3. add [download] buttons to each os
14:45:53 <pili> ggus: we can also
14:45:58 <antonela> are we good on that next steps?
14:46:00 <hiro> yeah yes! asking people it's key I think
14:46:18 <pili> we get a skewed view from frontdesk though, because we only hear failures
14:46:23 <pili> same as in #tor
14:46:32 <pili> and other channels
14:46:41 <hiro> fi we have a lot of failures is an issue tho
14:46:44 <pili> people are not going to come and tell you when things worked will for them
14:46:48 <hiro> if we have 2/3 people it's normal
14:47:04 <pili> 100 failures is a lot if you only have 500 visitors but if you have 1M it's not a lot :)
14:47:14 <emmapeel> some poeple thinks is 'their fault'
14:47:19 <pili> the scale is the issue here
14:47:22 <emmapeel> they will not report
14:47:23 <antonela> that is true
14:47:39 <pili> emmapeel: good point, they will just give up :(
14:47:42 <hiro> how many people we had in #tor ? 1 or 2 or 20 or 200?
14:47:45 <emmapeel> they think ' they are not ready to have privacy
14:48:11 <antonela> but hey, the download page has been a hot topic here since the ancient time
14:48:20 <antonela> we will not fix all people fears in one iteration
14:48:26 <antonela> lets try and we can improve over the time
14:48:27 <hiro> totally
14:48:32 <pili> yup :)
14:48:35 <hiro> and in the acient times it was the download PAGES
14:48:40 <antonela> EXACTLY
14:48:43 <pili> :D
14:48:49 <antonela> "consolidate download pages" is the ticket
14:48:57 * antonela four numbers ticket, you bet
14:49:33 <antonela> i think the signature part is also very relevant, should i work on it? do you see it as a priority?
14:49:42 <pili> another tiny change we could possibly make is to add the name of the OS to the icon
14:49:43 <antonela> when does your intern start ggus? :)
14:49:46 <ggus> one question about 3. we're going to identify users OS?
14:49:47 <hiro> i think the signature is quite important yeah
14:50:03 <antonela> ggus: no
14:50:08 <pili> that could be iteration 2
14:50:10 <ggus> antonela: she is already here
14:50:17 <pili> I'm a bit worried about how we can measure the impact of our changes though
14:50:44 <pili> are we all agreed on step 1 (remove banner from download page) at least
14:50:53 <pili> and if so, what should step 2 be?
14:51:26 <ggus> i'd try to remove the download button only from the download page (or remove just the arrow?)
14:52:25 <hiro> we can make the button scroll down
14:52:32 <hiro> you know?
14:52:37 <pili> yeah
14:52:50 <hiro> it's as easy as attaching an anchor link
14:52:54 <pili> I do wonder about the arrow also...
14:53:29 <ggus> people expect that the download starts if you click in download button
14:53:34 <antonela> something like https://share.riseup.net/#0kiFpSId7gWDJDLIBJmi4A
14:53:45 <antonela> ggus: who is she?
14:54:03 <ggus> she is here, hey c1e0 o/
14:54:16 <antonela> hey c1e0, welcome!
14:54:22 <hiro> o/ c1e0
14:54:35 <c1e0> o/
14:54:54 <c1e0> Thanks :)
14:54:55 <antonela> 11:54 ggus people expect that the download starts if you click in download button > yes but we cannot fix that if we dont sniff the OS
14:54:56 <hiro> I like the cleaned up download page
14:55:16 <hiro> we can sniff the os if we want
14:55:40 <hiro> but it's nice I think that we don't
14:55:45 <antonela> we do not want
14:55:56 * antonela do we?
14:56:02 <ggus> i don't know
14:56:08 <pili> I think we all agree that we don't :)
14:56:11 <pili> except for ggus :D
14:56:13 <pili> who is unsure ;)
14:56:38 <emmapeel> welcome c1e0 1
14:56:49 <emmapeel> i mean c1e0 !
14:57:06 <pili> does Tor Browser expose the OS on Safest mode?
14:57:09 <c1e0> Thank you, emmapeel :D I'm glad to join you guys
14:57:21 <pili> because if it doesn't then there's not even any point in trying to sniff the the OS
14:57:25 <hiro> tor browser comes out as windows in all the cases
14:57:34 <hiro> if I remember correctly is windows
14:57:56 <ggus> i think it's leaking OS
14:58:07 <ggus> not sure
14:58:08 <pili> but then again, they're not going to be downloading Tor Browser from Tor Browser... are they? :S
14:58:13 <pili> I think we could talk about this forever... :)
14:58:18 <ggus> pili: yeah
14:58:21 <hiro> time is up tho
14:58:22 <GeKo> depends on how you sniff
14:58:31 <antonela> here we are
14:58:38 <GeKo> just looking at the headers gives you windows for desktop builds
14:58:41 <antonela> how we can sniff privately geko?
14:58:42 <hiro> GeKo I wouldn't do much of a js call in jquery
14:58:47 <GeKo> but you see android for mobile
14:58:57 <GeKo> if you do js you get the real os if you want
14:59:19 <antonela> yes
14:59:23 <GeKo> antonela: uh, oh
14:59:42 <antonela> what do you think about this version GeKo? https://share.riseup.net/#0kiFpSId7gWDJDLIBJmi4A
14:59:57 * antonela is a 2 secs edit from the browser and screenshot
15:00:00 <GeKo> let me see
15:00:03 <irl> (tor metrics meeting in #tor-meeting 40 seconds ago)
15:00:12 * antonela download for android is the missing label
15:00:13 <pili> let's move this to #tor-www
15:00:24 <hiro> #endmeeting