16:00:04 <ggus> #startmeeting Community Team meeting - July 02 2021
16:00:04 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Jul  2 16:00:04 2021 UTC.  The chair is ggus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:04 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:08 <ggus> hello all!
16:00:17 <ggus> starting *now* the community team meeting
16:00:23 <donuts> hello community team :D
16:00:44 <deeplow[m]> Hi o/
16:00:47 <championquizzer> hello all o/
16:00:51 <kulsoom_z[m]> hello o/
16:00:51 <ggus> hey hey! our last community meeting was in 2020...
16:00:57 <nah> hi :)
16:01:05 <kushal> Hello
16:01:05 <ggus> happy to see people around surviving the pandemic :)
16:01:13 <kushal> ggus, It is still March 2020
16:01:30 <nah> :')
16:01:42 <ggus> kushal: exactly March 2020 Year 2
16:02:21 <ggus> here's the meeting pad - https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-community-team-monthly-2021-keep
16:02:32 <ggus> we hae two items in the agenda, but before that
16:02:35 <ggus> *have
16:03:06 <ggus> community team meetings will happen the first friday of each month, 1600 UTC
16:03:15 <kushal> Okay
16:03:21 <ggus> we still don't have enough capacity to run every week
16:03:42 <ggus> but let's see if this change in the future :)
16:04:11 <kushal> ggus, starting with once a month is good.
16:04:51 <ggus> yep
16:05:12 <ggus> the first topic to discuss is: the new Tor forum->  * Tor Forum categories, structure, and moderation policy
16:05:58 <ggus> As we're migrating the blog to lektor, we started to discuss how to integrate the comments
16:06:18 <ggus> and, at the moment, how moderating comments in blog.tpo is hard/painful
16:06:32 <ggus> specially for the tb-dev team
16:07:01 <ggus> so the blog migration is ongoing with lavamind and TPA folks
16:07:34 <ggus> and we should discuss what we want from this new space called forum.torproject.org
16:07:38 <kushal> yay to static blog
16:08:01 <ggus> you can read more about Discourse (aka forum) here: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/support/-/issues/201
16:08:24 <ggus> and what i would like to discuss with you all is about this proposal: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/community/team/-/issues/43
16:09:09 <ggus> so, now that i introduced the topic, please share your thoughts, ideas, concerns, and recommendations about the forum! :)
16:10:15 <ggus> ux-team: i added some suggestions for you (all the "Feedback" category). do you think is useful?
16:10:32 <kushal> I like gaba's comment about keeping development out from forum at start.
16:10:52 <ggus> deeplow[m]: did you have time to read the ticket #43 proposal? what do you think?
16:11:02 <kushal> Also fixed categories are easier than tags I think.
16:11:30 <emmapeel> but tags can also be fixed in discourse (you can allow tag creation at a certain level of access)
16:12:01 <kushal> emmapeel, I mean we can tag things in the all the posts.
16:12:08 <donuts> I have #43 on my list of things to reply to today, specifically the feedback sections :)
16:12:16 <nah> i like having a feedback section, we might need more specific categories, if you can't use more than one together
16:12:23 <kushal> say a post in "desktop support" can have multiple tags.
16:12:23 <ggus> championquizzer and kulsoom_z[m] do you think for user support we're good with these categories?
16:12:36 <deeplow[m]> On the Qubes forum we had the same approach
16:12:46 <kushal> deeplow[m]++
16:12:50 <donuts> +1 to nah's comments, we need to split out alpha and stable at least (unless we're only talking about "feedback" in the context of alpha)
16:12:58 <donuts> err sorry, in the context of stable I mean
16:13:31 <donuts> any extra granularity can be accomplished with tags though
16:13:40 <donuts> like tagging things as "UX" or "Bug" etc.
16:13:48 <emmapeel> i wish we can have a category 'Tor Browser' and tag the posts as  'support', 'feedback' 'feature request'
16:13:49 <nah> +1
16:14:06 <ggus> if you have @torproject.org mail address, you can access the demo instance here: forum.torproject.org. if you don't have @tpo email, send a private message and i will send an invitation.
16:14:17 <championquizzer> ggus: prima facie, looks good to me! i can do a run down of the rt to see what else (if!) can be added
16:15:05 <donuts> I guess the tricky thing is where bug reports, feedback and support all overlap
16:15:21 <kulsoom_z[m]> ggus: i think it will help pretty much to categorise requests better.
16:15:24 <donuts> i.e. are user posts going to end up in the right places
16:15:42 <donuts> this is where a catchall category would be useful, if messy
16:15:46 <emmapeel> donuts: that is exactl my point: that some topics will overlap, so categories, beign exclusive, will nto allow for an aggregation of input
16:16:00 <kulsoom_z[m]> donuts: yep, we see instances like these too
16:16:04 <donuts> ah sorry i misread your post emmapeel
16:16:06 <donuts> i totally agree
16:16:15 <emmapeel> (moderators will be able to change the category of a post, tho)
16:16:23 <deeplow[m]> It may be messy, I can tell from experience. No matter how well you define the categories, users will always post in the wrong one. That's where moderators come in, fixing the category. On the Qubes forum we have a "Guides" category where people post guides and still people post there questions.
16:16:45 <donuts> fair points :)
16:17:10 <donuts> shifting tags is slightly less disruptive for the user than shifting category though, yes?
16:17:27 <donuts> i.e. if they return to view their post?
16:17:35 <deeplow[m]> Maybe, just a tiny bit.
16:17:50 <deeplow[m]> Discourse makes the thing pretty seamless, I think.
16:17:56 <emmapeel> does the URL of a topic changes if the category is changed?
16:18:03 <deeplow[m]> nope
16:18:08 <donuts> oh, that's not so bad then
16:18:09 <deeplow[m]> they do magic :)
16:18:09 <emmapeel> great
16:18:20 <deeplow[m]> the topics have a number assigned to them
16:18:27 <deeplow[m]> that's what counts for the URL
16:18:27 <kulsoom_z[m]> well, we can't achieve 100% accuracy at any thing but i think if a user can add multiple tags to one question, it should come out well
16:18:44 <donuts> yep, I like this plan!
16:18:48 <ggus> i really want to avoid the tags nightmare.
16:18:54 <kushal> ggus, :)
16:19:06 <deeplow[m]> tags are a nightmare, I can tell
16:19:12 <ggus> the experience in the tor blog is a proof.
16:19:21 <donuts> can we have a closed tag system?
16:19:25 <deeplow[m]> especially if you allow users to create them
16:19:32 <deeplow[m]> yes, you can have a closed tag system
16:19:37 <nah> like limiting 2/3 tags per user
16:19:47 <donuts> I'm more thinking of tags being a thing mods apply after triaging
16:19:54 <kulsoom_z[m]> yeah, that's nice
16:20:09 <deeplow[m]> Ah. I don't know if you can do that limiting of tags / person
16:20:14 <donuts> not a full blown tor blog tagpocalypse
16:20:32 <deeplow[m]> yes, tagging may be more useful if only applied by moderators. But I haven't explored yet if this is possibly. Probably it is
16:21:12 <emmapeel> i would like that normal users get offered a fixed lists of tags, and moderators can add new tags to it
16:21:22 <kulsoom_z[m]> +1
16:21:24 <nah> +1
16:22:04 <donuts> +1 (we can change to categories relatively easily if it's a disaster)
16:22:13 <kulsoom_z[m]> can we have a thing like a user is only allowed to use 2/3 tags? like nah said
16:22:33 <deeplow[m]> Related: https://meta.discourse.org/t/a-comprehensive-guide-to-discourse-tags/121041
16:22:59 <donuts> "Please note that categories, depending on their settings, can optionally limit which tags may apply to that category."
16:23:02 <donuts> oh, that's good to know
16:24:04 <kushal> #link https://meta.discourse.org/t/a-comprehensive-guide-to-discourse-tags/121041
16:25:04 <ggus> i really think using only the tag system leaves to information chaos, and we should rely on the categories.
16:25:15 <deeplow[m]> <ggus "deeplow: did you have time to re"> (Missed this. Reading proposal #43 now)
16:25:25 <donuts> we'll need categories for alpha vs stable, desktop vs TBA at least
16:25:31 <ggus> tags could useful for tb-10.5, or something like this
16:25:46 <deeplow[m]> <ggus "i really think using only the ta"> I second what ggus said about the tags
16:25:51 <donuts> but my worry is we'll have a different kind of chaos if we further split up those categories into bug, ux feedback, etc
16:26:02 <donuts> maybe not though :)
16:26:06 <deeplow[m]> focus on having good categories and order then by user's needs. The most common one on top. Instead of trying to logically group
16:26:18 <kulsoom_z[m]> +1
16:27:09 <emmapeel> yes, that is what i think. i agree that TBA, TBB, Core Tor are categories. But I am not so sure about 'Feedback', 'Support', 'Feature request' being categories
16:27:27 <ggus> emmapeel: support is a category, for sure.
16:27:45 <donuts> ggus would you like to flip it around then? so categories for bug/feedback etc. and then tags for version/platform etc.?
16:27:57 <emmapeel> so, the messages about Support in Tor Browser will not appear on the Tor Browser category?
16:28:11 <ggus> emmapeel: i dont think we should create tb category
16:28:21 <ggus> because 90% is tor browser, you know
16:29:31 <deeplow[m]> For example, on proposal #43 you are grouping it by feedback and support, which makes sense. But a user will have to find the right product. Have you consiedered making it product oriented? Tor Browser probably is the most used product so perhaps it should have it's own category. Just like what ggus is saying
16:29:55 <donuts> I guess it depends on how many categories we have overall, and if we need to group these up
16:30:13 <deeplow[m]> So "Tor Browser » Support" instead of "Support » Tor Browser"
16:30:14 <donuts> signal don't but then the lines between their clients is blurrier
16:30:18 <deeplow[m]> just an idea
16:31:24 <deeplow[m]> <donuts "signal don't but then the lines "> True.
16:31:30 <donuts> imo this is all "support" though, i.e. isn't every bug report a support issue? or are we sticking to support as a kind of front desk?
16:31:36 <donuts> (interested to get community's take on this)
16:32:35 <ggus> deeplow[m]: the issue with this approach is: we do support for relay operators and other things that aren't tor browser
16:33:44 <deeplow[m]> In this model the difference would be that there would be a "Relay Operators » Support"
16:33:50 <ggus> donuts: i hope that with the forum, some commons questions that we're getting in frontdesk can be easily answered there, without so much interaction by us.
16:33:59 <deeplow[m]> But I'm not sure which approach is the best
16:34:27 <ggus> deeplow[m]: but what happen when someone wants onion services support?
16:34:36 <ggus> Onion Services -> Support?
16:34:51 <kushal> or just onion services
16:35:15 <ggus> What happen when someone wants Snowflake support? :P
16:35:35 <ggus> "i'm running my snowflake but i don't know if i'm helping?"
16:36:11 <donuts> sorry, ggus, let me rephrase – do we need a dedicated "support" category, or isn't everything support? for example if a user posts into "bugs", they need support no?
16:36:57 <emmapeel> i feel bugs are things we need to fix, support are things we need to help users so they fix them
16:37:01 <nah> for a non advanced user it makes sense to go to support and then to the product they are chasing, i think. but we can also run a session about this to see what makes more sense.
16:37:46 <donuts> yeah that sounds reasonable, I'm just curious how well forum posters will get the difference
16:37:50 <deeplow[m]> Then they would post on the "onion services" category
16:37:55 <deeplow[m]> Someone has probably already posted something about what approach is best in which situation. Will look it up on meta.discourse.org
16:37:57 <ggus> donuts: i don't think we will have a "bugs" section, instead we will open/close with a new ticket in gitlab
16:38:07 <donuts> right, gotcha
16:38:22 <donuts> so a support forum -> gitlab flow
16:38:44 <ggus> yes, if it's a bug, we redirect the person to gitlab
16:39:02 <ggus> this is the workflow we're doing on frontdesk
16:39:10 <donuts> right right, makes sense
16:40:08 <ggus> The reason i created "Tor Browser Alpha" category is to have something similar as signal forum: https://community.signalusers.org/c/beta-feedback/25
16:40:38 <ggus> so when there's a new alpha release, you can collect feedback
16:40:59 <donuts> yep, totally onboard with that!
16:41:13 <deeplow[m]> Sort of like a mega-thread
16:41:38 <donuts> makes sense with release posts too
16:41:57 <emmapeel> release posts will be on the announcement or news categories, tho
16:42:37 <donuts> I was wondering if they should go here instead, but I'm just thinking out loud
16:43:10 <emmapeel> so, the blogpost about an alpha release will have feedback on the news, tor browser alpha, and maybe UI/ux categories
16:43:36 <ggus> emmapeel: yeah, i was thinking about that. maybe the organization should rethink the tor blog goal - what's announced, etc.
16:44:05 <donuts> yeah, there's probably some figuring out where goes what to do there
16:44:14 <donuts> it would be nice to not clutter up the news section with release posts too
16:44:31 <ggus> yeah
16:44:35 <donuts> (applications will have an opinion on this too i'm sure)
16:44:59 <deeplow[m]> Do people give feedback on today's blog comments?
16:45:09 <emmapeel> yes
16:45:11 <ggus> deeplow[m]: yes
16:45:32 <deeplow[m]> ok. Then what you can do is split that reply into the proper category
16:45:33 <ggus> and also do user support
16:45:36 <emmapeel> some feedback is about the new release, like actual bug reports. other is just random
16:46:27 <nah> they give feedback anywhere they want to
16:46:27 <ggus> https://blog.torproject.org/new-release-tor-browser-10018#comments
16:47:40 <deeplow[m]> https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-moderation-guide/63116#off-topic-digression
16:49:11 <ggus> we have more 10 minutes, do you have other points about the forum that wasn't covered?
16:49:34 <donuts> I'm good, I'll try and pull my thoughts together for the ticket
16:49:52 <ggus> thanks donuts!
16:49:52 <donuts> but that was very useful, ty! (also thanks deeplow!)
16:49:56 <nah> me too!
16:50:09 <ggus> my suggestion to all is to lurk on other discourse forums
16:50:09 <emmapeel> yes, thanks everybody and especially deeplow[m] for sharing their expertise
16:50:25 <nah> yes, thanks deeplow[m]!
16:50:35 <ggus> the discourse App works pretty well
16:51:07 <deeplow[m]> You're welcome. I hope I didn't create too much confusion about the categorization thing. I'm really not sure what is the best approach here.
16:51:10 <emmapeel> deeplow[m]: thank last link is very reassuring about the posibilities to maintain the discussion productive
16:51:28 <deeplow[m]> Yep, discourse is really really nice in that aspect
16:51:36 <ggus> deeplow[m]: if i have a child category, can i easily make it a parent category? for example, Support -> Relay and make it Relay -> Support.
16:51:48 <deeplow[m]> Two last points I'd like to make
16:52:13 <deeplow[m]> I think so ggus. I think you can always restructure it without breaking links or anything.
16:52:29 <ggus> great! sorry to interrupt you
16:52:40 <deeplow[m]> no worries, It's kind of related
16:52:47 <deeplow[m]> so you can start small. That's what we did
16:53:04 <deeplow[m]> created a General Discussion and then a Suppor. That's it
16:53:44 <deeplow[m]> (also some minor ones like mailinglist mirror, news and language)
16:53:59 <deeplow[m]> then grew from there into an off-tipic (semi-limited). Now we're thinking of having a Testers category as well
16:54:09 <deeplow[m]> Second point: mailing list mirrors
16:54:55 <deeplow[m]> people will absolutely try to reply on those threads. There are a few things you nee to do to sort of minimize that chance, but it will still happen from time to time.
16:55:37 <deeplow[m]> That's all I wanted to say, I think
16:56:02 <deeplow[m]> Good luck on this :)
16:56:11 <ggus> thanks deeplow[m]!
16:56:23 <donuts> ty deeplow!
16:57:05 <deeplow[m]> If you need anything else, just ping me, as always :)
16:57:27 <ggus> we still don't have a date to launch the forum, but we were thinking to soft launch next month, in august
16:58:09 <ggus> folks, it was a great meeting. thanks all for joining us
16:58:16 <deeplow[m]> Thank you!
16:58:18 <ggus> please remember to add your comments on the ticket
16:58:34 <ggus> hope everyone have a great weekend!
16:58:48 <donuts> thanks ggus, will do – bye everyone!
16:59:03 <emmapeel> o/
16:59:09 <kulsoom_z[m]> thanks everyone
16:59:11 <deeplow[m]> o/
16:59:14 <championquizzer> thanks all \o/
16:59:31 <ggus> #endmeeting