17:59:07 <donuts> #startmeeting Tor Browser Release Meeting 2022-10-17
17:59:07 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Oct 17 17:59:07 2022 UTC.  The chair is donuts. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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17:59:13 <donuts> release meeters assemble
17:59:19 <richard> o/
17:59:20 <PieroV> o/
17:59:23 <donuts> pad is here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-browser-release-meeting-keep
17:59:33 <donuts> pls update kthanx
17:59:39 <richard> no
17:59:51 <richard> i mean ok
18:00:05 <donuts> :<
18:00:10 <richard> >:[
18:00:28 * ma1 lurking
18:03:47 <PieroV> I think I'm done for discussion points
18:03:54 <donuts> ty pierov
18:04:06 * donuts is reading the pad...
18:04:30 <donuts> when's 12.0a4 due?
18:04:34 * richard quickly skimms through board to see if any other issues stand out as  blockers
18:04:45 <donuts> oh 25/10
18:05:01 <richard> this week should see the next stable release, and then alpha after
18:05:15 <richard> so release prep will probably start on alpha this week
18:05:28 <PieroV> wfm
18:05:50 <donuts> is the release cal wrong then?
18:05:53 <PieroV> 12.4 ESR is already rebased, we should squash and maybe merge another pair of MRs first
18:05:58 <donuts> 1.5.5 will be a week earlier?
18:06:11 <PieroV> donuts: we don't have a real calendar for stable at this point
18:06:15 <richard> we got tags last week
18:06:25 <PieroV> we're doing the backports, not Moz
18:06:38 <richard> yeah
18:06:42 <PieroV> So we're late in a certain sense :D
18:06:54 <donuts> right, I'm looking at nextcloud though which says Oct 25th for both stable and alpha
18:07:50 <donuts> in any case, want to continue with the discussion items?
18:07:55 <richard> 25th would be the rebase due-date
18:08:11 <donuts> oh ha
18:08:20 <donuts> I saw "re..." and my brain populated the rest with -lease
18:08:34 <donuts> right, I see now
18:08:36 <donuts> ty
18:11:52 <donuts> okay we're just talking in the pad now
18:12:23 <PieroV> donuts: I think we can go with your question about the multi-lingual?
18:12:30 <PieroV> * questions
18:12:39 <donuts> is that going to miss 12.0a4? or will it make it?
18:12:45 <PieroV> Merged!
18:12:50 <donuts> okay great
18:12:53 <PieroV> So it's going in 12.0a4 indeed
18:12:58 <donuts> I'm concerned about the lack of alphas, and it's a very big change
18:12:59 <PieroV> It was a blocker to it :)
18:13:06 <donuts> (cc richard)
18:13:12 <PieroV> At least IIRC from previous meeting
18:13:21 <PieroV> Yeah, also the tor-launcher change is a big one
18:13:47 <donuts> we chatted about potentially delaying 1 month, or doubling up on november alphas last week I think
18:14:10 <PieroV> Yeah, I think I meant "doing an alpha also in November"
18:14:20 <PieroV> For 11.5 stable we skipped the alpha
18:14:29 <PieroV> And released a pair of weeks after the corresponding Moz release
18:14:34 <richard> we can always delay stable some weeks
18:15:04 <donuts> QAing localization issues can be a blind spot for us
18:15:06 <PieroV> (like 91.x was released on 10 July, and we released the 11.5 based on that version around the 25th of July, or something similar)
18:15:11 <donuts> we don't get a lot back from alpha testers at all
18:15:23 <donuts> in fact pierov usually finds most of the bugs themself :D
18:15:29 <PieroV> :D
18:15:31 <richard> hm
18:15:33 <donuts> but that worries me a little with a change of this scope
18:15:44 <PieroV> I hope things are going to change when we merge the localization in tor-browser.git
18:15:58 <richard> RTL languages are also a big blind spot as well
18:16:06 <PieroV> We could get rid of the importing script, and at that point running the nightlies on the latest and greatest translations
18:16:09 <emmapeel> yeah, is hard to get translators to give feedback on the alphas :S
18:16:15 <donuts> I can ask comms to do another bunch of social posts, but last time the entire campaign maybe netted us three-ish testers
18:16:24 <PieroV> :(
18:16:36 <donuts> this is the current state of activity in the alpha feedback section too: https://forum.torproject.net/c/feedback/tor-browser-alpha-feedback/6
18:16:40 <donuts> it's... quiet...
18:16:42 <richard> so we do have the outreachy candidate pool
18:16:42 <donuts> too quiet
18:16:48 <emmapeel> the thing is they translate and then the alpha comes out some months later, they are not interested anymore. maybe the nightlies will be better
18:17:25 <donuts> emmapeel: ah, that's a shame :(
18:18:01 <donuts> although maybe they'll be more motivated at testing this change? any bugs should be more obvious than the odd incorrect string
18:18:22 <emmapeel> sure
18:18:24 <donuts> we could do a special forum post too
18:18:32 <donuts> with instructions of what to test
18:18:38 <donuts> but everyone's obviously very busy atm
18:19:35 <donuts> maybe we can dogfood a little and ping it round internal too
18:20:21 <donuts> what do you think richard? could you do an email when we publish 12.0a4?
18:20:42 <richard> yes I think that is a good plan
18:20:59 <donuts> also what web changes should I start coordinating here, if any?
18:21:12 <donuts> to https://www.torproject.org/download/
18:21:56 <PieroV> (just noticed the YEC also on that page - nice!)
18:22:06 <donuts> ha yep!
18:22:12 <PieroV> donuts: we will have only one language
18:22:24 <PieroV> At the moment we're using _ALL as a suffix, instead of the language
18:22:32 <PieroV> Let me double check in my testbuilds
18:23:08 <PieroV> Yes, _ALL uppercase
18:23:14 <richard> hmm
18:23:21 <PieroV> Like tor-browser-linux64-testbuild_ALL.tar.xz
18:23:24 <richard> well we'll need some change to the webstie for alpha
18:23:32 <PieroV> (we'll have the version instead of testbuild)
18:23:47 <richard> right now there's a big list of locales we use to generate both the stable and alpha downoad pages
18:23:59 <donuts> richard: yep
18:24:29 <richard> so if there are web changes to be made we need that soooon
18:24:47 <PieroV> The big table should disappear: https://www.torproject.org/download/alpha/
18:24:49 <richard> oh shit we need that very soon, for 12.0a4
18:24:59 <richard> damn pierov i need to read more
18:25:23 <PieroV> And we could add the instruction on how to change the language, if it's wrong
18:25:53 <PieroV> So new screenshots, too. If everything goes well, they could be taken from today/tomorrow's nightly
18:26:18 <donuts> okay, I can start looking into this tomorrow after I get my hands on a nightly to test it
18:26:33 <PieroV> donuts: I can probably generate a testbuild, if needed
18:26:44 <PieroV> (either me or possibly richard too)
18:26:56 <donuts> pierov: thanks, I may as well wait for the nightly at this point I guess
18:27:09 <PieroV> if it doesn't fail :D
18:27:21 <donuts> ha
18:27:25 <donuts> fingers crossed
18:27:40 <donuts> do you think we need some first-launch UX?
18:27:46 <richard> PieroV: latest in tor-browser-build/main ?
18:27:57 <donuts> with the option to override the automatic language selection?
18:27:59 <richard> I'll get that going
18:28:01 <PieroV> donuts: you said we wanted to update the onboarding to include it
18:28:10 <PieroV> richard: yes, I've merged a few hours ago
18:28:17 <richard> excellent
18:28:21 <donuts> pierov: yeah, I've since discovered issues with that approach
18:28:28 <PieroV> donuts: once you go to the language page it should stay selected forever
18:28:29 <donuts> namely our current onboarding is bad
18:29:15 <donuts> maybe we need a chrome banner on both torconnect and about:tor
18:29:41 <donuts> I'll have a think about that tomorrow too
18:30:08 <donuts> okay I am done thinking out loud now
18:30:17 <PieroV> Maybe we can add a direct link?
18:30:29 <donuts> pierov: yeah that's what I'm thinking
18:30:29 <PieroV> Like about:preferences#general-language or whatever it is
18:30:39 <donuts> just a warning as to what's changed and a link to prefs
18:32:05 <donuts> okay let's move on
18:32:59 <PieroV> Chrome font size
18:33:10 <PieroV> It's currently tor-browser!394
18:33:36 <PieroV> I thought it would have looked worse, but it's acceptable after all
18:33:44 <donuts> \o/
18:33:47 <donuts> i'm glad lol
18:34:18 <PieroV> However, we don't contain any preset for people using like font: caption, font: icon etc... which looks in a certain way on macOS
18:34:34 <PieroV> But developers shouldn't rely on these anyway imho :P
18:35:02 <donuts> sorry I don't understand the first bit
18:35:06 <donuts> what do you mean?
18:35:14 <PieroV> In CSS you can set special fonts to match your OS
18:35:21 <PieroV> Like font: icon, or font: caption, or font: menu
18:35:25 <donuts> ahhhh gotcha
18:35:30 <PieroV> We completely normalized those
18:35:52 <PieroV> To the same value, we don't apply any customization to normalize to what would the platform have normally
18:36:05 <PieroV> (macOS set some of them to bold)
18:36:10 <donuts> will that break things like emoji or symbols in page titles?
18:36:18 <PieroV> No
18:37:15 <PieroV> donuts: these will be rendered all the same, that's the only thing https://www.w3schools.com/cssref/tryit.asp?filename=trycss_font_caption
18:37:35 <PieroV> In Linux they're already the same, on macOS they might be a little bit different
18:37:46 <donuts> oh I see
18:37:53 <donuts> across the whole browser?
18:38:23 <PieroV> The original patch normalized them also if used in privileged pages, the new patch will not normalize them in the chorme
18:38:29 <PieroV> And this fixes the bad behaviors
18:38:39 <donuts> i'm having a hard time envisaging what the actual differences could look like, but I guess I'll find out soon anyway :)
18:38:48 <donuts> I see
18:39:02 <donuts> well I'll shout if I notice anything weird
18:39:11 <PieroV> ahaha, okay :)
18:39:42 <donuts> richard: do you want to talk about 12.0 blockers?
18:40:07 <donuts> "Various Review Mozilla XXXXXX tickets" <- i'm hoping those aren't roman numerals :D
18:40:54 <PieroV> of course they are
18:42:03 <richard> haha
18:42:12 <richard> nothing to talk about really
18:42:28 <richard> i think ma1 is planning on going through his this week iirc from the today's meeting pad
18:42:42 <richard> but not much dev work expected there
18:42:45 <ma1> richard, confirmed
18:42:47 <donuts> cool sounds good
18:43:09 <richard> and dan_b has a similar amount as well
18:43:52 <dan_b> i have two with MRs out and two more to look at this week
18:43:57 <richard> and the audit issue resolutions are pretty much copy contents of issue into doc in tor-browser-specs and commit/close :p
18:44:33 <donuts> fantastic
18:44:46 <donuts> okay action items for me: 1. coordinate web for multi-locales, 2. think about first launch UX for multi-locales, 3. ask comms to fire off some alpha tester posts/tweets after 12.0a4
18:45:08 <richard> and i'll have testbuild for you later today with muti-locales
18:45:14 <donuts> lovely tyvm
18:45:53 <donuts> I think we're all good then?
18:46:21 <PieroV> richard: what about pref audit?
18:46:57 <richard> i have that one on my plate, not sure how much of it has already done
18:48:18 <PieroV> okay; I can take the macOS bug, it should be easy enough to solve
18:48:35 <donuts> that would be lovely
18:48:37 <PieroV> The bookmarks, I mean, not the arm :)
18:48:44 <donuts> aha yes
18:49:02 <donuts> I'm assuming ARM isn't a real blocker
18:49:08 <richard> hm
18:49:09 <donuts> i.e. if we can't fix it, we just won't ship it
18:49:19 <PieroV> We should be able to fix bookmarks for 12.0a4
18:49:32 <PieroV> For ARM I think we still need to sign it
18:49:49 <PieroV> Is ARM enabled in main now?
18:49:50 <richard> yeah, let me see if I can just manually sign a testbuild for you donuts
18:49:56 <donuts> richard: okaydokes, ty
18:49:57 <richard> PieroV: yeah I think so
18:50:08 <PieroV> Very interesting
18:50:10 <donuts> i'm also getting general-lack-of-alpha nervousness about this one too
18:50:30 <donuts> hello i'm donuts and my job is to be nervous
18:50:40 <richard> hey that's MY job
18:50:46 <trinity-1686a> hey that's my job
18:50:59 <donuts> lmao
18:51:13 <PieroV> can mine be yoloing? :D
18:51:40 <richard> yeah wfm
18:52:14 <donuts> 👉🤠👉
18:52:19 <richard> confiremd we have a torbrowser-alpha-osx-aarch64 make target in origin/main
18:52:20 <donuts> ^ pierov firing off the patches
18:52:28 <PieroV> lol
18:52:36 <PieroV> richard: but is it enabled?
18:52:46 <PieroV> Like, is make torbrowser-alpha going to build it?
18:53:03 <richard> only one way to find out
18:53:18 <richard> (prety sure it does)
18:53:32 <PieroV> we'll see :)
18:54:54 <donuts> i've added a fourth action item to my list
18:54:59 <donuts> "Retest ARM build on M1 mac after @richard gets me a signed build"
18:55:13 <donuts> and with that, I'm gonna put the bot back to sleep
18:55:17 <donuts> since it's now HH:56
18:55:18 <richard> and i've updated my todo list on the pad
18:55:22 <PieroV> cool
18:55:23 <donuts> awesome
18:55:28 <richard> ok l8r sk8rs
18:55:33 <PieroV> Thank you all!
18:55:38 <donuts> tyvm all!
18:55:46 <donuts> another fine release meeting was had
18:55:52 <donuts> #endmeeting