15:02:49 <richard> #startmeeting Tor Browser Weekly Meeting 2024-07-08
15:02:49 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jul  8 15:02:49 2024 UTC.  The chair is richard. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:02:50 <dan_b> o/
15:02:55 <henry-x> hello
15:02:56 <richard> new week new tor browser meeting
15:03:00 <bellatchau> o/
15:03:01 <richard> hello!
15:03:04 <Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m]> Hello!
15:03:04 <richard> the pad per usual -> https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-keep
15:03:24 <richard> and as usual please update your to-dos and to-dones, add discussion points, etc
15:04:56 <donuts> o/
15:05:46 <richard> looks like we have some fun coming in rapidly from tpa and pinned certs
15:09:02 <richard> ok looks like we've a ton of disccussion points so let's get started
15:09:06 <richard> pierov!
15:09:32 <PieroV> So, in Portugal we talked about doing a review day
15:09:56 <PieroV> Like everybody to check tor-browser!1043 and related MRs
15:10:37 <PieroV> I think the time has come, since richard's plan was to have a 14.0a1 next week
15:11:05 <PieroV> And also we have tags for 128.0.0esr
15:13:25 <richard> should we set a deadline then for wednesday evening?j
15:13:44 <richard> and plan to have release-prep for ready thurs evening, and build over the weekend?
15:13:57 <richard> (wednesday evening for reviews)
15:15:03 <PieroV> No
15:15:14 <PieroV> No builds until we haven't tested the updater please
15:16:10 <PieroV> Also, the current MR is on beta 1
15:16:21 <PieroV> So, we need to rebase it on the release first
15:16:46 <richard> I'm sure that will be a small difff of diffs :p
15:16:52 <richard> but good point
15:17:05 <richard> then we should plan on release prepping/building middle of next week
15:19:51 <richard> in any case, let's plan on 'review day' Tuesday
15:20:08 <richard> and hopefully have everything resolved by the end of the week
15:20:35 <dan_b> next tuesday or this?
15:20:40 <richard> tomorrow Tuesday
15:20:44 <richard> 2024-07-09
15:21:15 <dan_b> cool
15:21:21 <richard> next up a small thing from me
15:21:37 <richard> i've reworked the esr128 issue triage list generation at the end of the last last week
15:22:02 <richard> the old mr in tor-browser-spec is out, moved to tor-browser
15:22:23 <richard> new script creates a csv, which i've dumped into google sheets, and formatted nicely per all your suggestions
15:22:38 <PieroV> I don't think this kind of scripts belong to tor-browser.git
15:23:03 <richard> it also grabs issues from the release's git range not listed in bugzilla (which is why it's in tor-browser rather than tor-browser-spec)
15:23:42 <richard> it seemed like a smarater plan than adding ever more cmd-line args to the script to just move it within the tor-browser git repo
15:24:27 <richard> in any event we can bikekshed where it belongs on the MR, I've generated+formatted sheets for all the releases and posted links in internal notes (since they are publically editable)
15:25:18 <richard> PieroV's MR is higher priority at the moment, but after that we can start going through the lists and opening issues for further review
15:26:00 <richard> if you do create an issue for further review, just remember to check the little box in the spreadsheet to signal to others not to worry  about that particular issue
15:26:53 <richard> bellatchau: ok retrospective?
15:26:56 <bellatchau> - reads spreadsheet and smiles -
15:27:06 <richard> lol it's a massive one
15:27:10 <bellatchau> ok, so we have a few dates available both this week and next
15:27:32 <richard> i think another pass will be necessary because the 126 sheet is massive because of the firefox-android <-> firefox merger
15:27:35 <bellatchau> but in one dan_b cant attend and the other boklm
15:27:38 <richard> but anyway yes
15:28:00 <bellatchau> I just wanted to make sure we review those dates and decide on one
15:28:11 <bellatchau> https://crab.fit/tor-browser-135-retrospective-511943
15:28:37 * Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m] assumes that non-staff such as myself are not needed?
15:28:58 <richard> jeremy: yep
15:29:00 <bellatchau> correct. :)
15:29:22 <boklm> what is the second date?
15:29:34 <richard> i think i'm leaning to preferring next week over this week
15:29:44 <richard> yeah which dates are your proposed ones bella :3
15:29:45 <bellatchau> july 16th
15:30:07 <bellatchau> July 16th or July 17th
15:30:18 <dan_b> is the time i cant attend the first block?
15:30:23 <bellatchau> yes
15:30:24 <dan_b> the early one?
15:30:28 <dan_b> i can attend
15:30:35 <dan_b> i just have to set an alarm to wake me up
15:30:49 <donuts> is this a retrospective for the release?
15:30:50 <bellatchau> thank you dan_b!!!
15:30:51 <dan_b> that was more a preference
15:31:09 <bellatchau> ok, so July 16th it is, I will send invites
15:31:19 <bellatchau> ty all
15:31:31 <richard> ok.. donuts
15:31:39 <richard> you have many bullets
15:31:47 <donuts> but first...
15:31:48 <donuts> [11:30:49]  <+donuts> is this a retrospective for the release?
15:31:59 <bellatchau> yes
15:32:09 <donuts> aha, did a poll go out?
15:32:14 <donuts> I missed this, apologies
15:32:22 <bellatchau> yes, via email
15:32:35 <richard> i may have forgotten to add you
15:32:38 <bellatchau> (crosses my fingers that this date works for you)
15:32:48 <donuts> <+richard> i may have forgotten to add you <- that might be the problem
15:33:01 <donuts> :p
15:33:03 <bellatchau> i see you in the email lol
15:33:08 <donuts> lol
15:33:11 <donuts> what's it called?
15:33:19 <bellatchau> Tor/Mullvad Browser 13.5 Retrospective
15:33:20 <richard> Tor/Mullvad Browser 13.5 Retrospective
15:33:22 <ma1> bellatchau, isn't 16 when boklm is not available?
15:33:50 <donuts> got it, thanks!
15:33:57 <ma1> and 17 first block max availability?
15:34:03 <donuts> So what time have you picked?
15:34:10 <bellatchau> omg, you are right @ma1 (i was looking at it wrong)
15:34:34 <ma1> should be Wed 17th at 14 UTC afaict
15:34:36 <bellatchau> we really need someone from community
15:34:52 <bellatchau> so I prioritized a time that ebanam is available
15:35:29 <richard> he's available at 14:30
15:35:33 <bellatchau> ok, so July 17th the second slot
15:35:34 <richard> on that day
15:35:37 <ma1> right
15:35:46 <ma1> (ebanam has only 30 mins slots)
15:35:47 <boklm> I can be available on the 16th if needed
15:35:54 <bellatchau> does it work for everyone (this including donuts)
15:36:29 <donuts> I'm free all day on the 16th, and busy @1700 UTC on the 17th
15:36:55 <donuts> I've just posted the crabfit for those days (sorry I was AFK when the poll went out)
15:37:03 <richard> let's do the 16th then
15:37:14 <donuts> 1700 UTC on the 17th is the S101 meeting, so I'm guessing you'll be busy then too bellatchau
15:37:14 <bellatchau> yes , at 14:30
15:37:39 <bellatchau> yeap...lets do 17th at 14:30 UTC, right?
15:37:52 <bellatchau> (prays to the crab gods)
15:37:58 <donuts> wfm!
15:38:04 <richard> ?
15:38:20 <richard> 1600 on the 16th fits everyone for the whole hour
15:38:33 <richard> (boklm said above he can be available if needed)
15:38:47 <bellatchau> ok, wfm
15:38:50 <boklm> 1600 on the 16th wfm
15:38:55 <donuts> also wfm!
15:39:07 <richard> lol ok i think the team may be too big now
15:39:20 <richard> oh dear
15:39:23 <donuts> too much team 😤
15:39:29 <bellatchau> a good problem :)
15:39:31 <richard> nah it's perfect :3
15:39:36 <donuts> okay shall i move on
15:39:40 <richard> yes please
15:39:51 <bellatchau> omg, yes
15:40:02 <donuts> friends, i'd like to talk about the next release meeting
15:40:24 <donuts> firstly I think you moved the timeslot richard? but it conflicts with UX Team meetings
15:40:33 <donuts> so I can't be in/facilitate both
15:40:57 <richard> i think it was on my plate to move it again
15:41:11 <donuts> aha okay that's cool
15:41:27 <donuts> secondly, shall we delay today's release meeting by (1) week to let everyone settle in?
15:41:40 <donuts> I'd also like to do a little prep in advance
15:41:46 <richard> well, we have *some* fun blowing up my notifications from mozilla
15:42:03 <donuts> yessss, I saw...
15:42:14 <richard> i'm not 100% sure what the result is for us but i suspect devs will need to sync for the 13.5.1 release
15:42:37 <donuts> Okay, that's fair – can we do another next week in that case?
15:42:40 <richard> in any event after today's I can add a one-off for 14.0a1
15:42:43 <donuts> and you can sync without me today?
15:42:48 <richard> and move the recurring one to another day
15:42:52 <richard> yeah perfect
15:42:55 <donuts> cool sounds good
15:43:00 <donuts> okaydokes last thing...
15:43:36 <donuts> going forward I'd like to use the first (second?) release meeting of each development cycle to plan the upcoming major release
15:44:01 <donuts> including agreeing on the major dev/ux work for the release, plus agreeing on a reasonable cut-off for designs and QA
15:44:07 <richard> first planned release meeting* :D
15:44:19 <donuts> haha true
15:44:20 <PieroV> donuts: I don't know if this would work
15:44:29 <donuts> why pierov?
15:44:47 <PieroV> It seems to me something that needs preparation and possibly its own special time
15:45:09 <donuts> yes, it needs preparation – hence pushing it out a week
15:45:14 <donuts> I'm planning on sending an email round
15:45:36 <donuts> but if we already have the release meeting timeslot reserved, why not use it?
15:45:43 <PieroV> Because it might not be enough
15:45:49 <donuts> (it could be a special meeting, but then we need to mess around with another crabfit)
15:46:17 <PieroV> I think it's okay to start the conversation there, but not to cut it just to fit in there
15:46:23 <richard> hmm
15:46:32 <richard> what is the goal donuts?
15:46:47 <PieroV> Also, I think we should make the release meetings more effective
15:47:03 <donuts> richard: agreeing on what we're working on for the release, when things need to be done by, and general alignment between the teams
15:47:29 <donuts> basically create a roadmap for the release
15:49:27 <richard> ok, i think we (you me bella ggus) should probably get some agreement on what the deliverables/outcome of such a meeting would be, before we try to wrangle 10+ people into a single bbb again
15:49:51 <PieroV> +1
15:50:04 <bellatchau> perfect
15:50:27 <bellatchau> lets sync this week, maybe use one of our 1:1 times
15:50:53 <donuts> hmm
15:50:58 <bellatchau> I'll send possibilities (checking your calendars on NC)
15:51:06 <richard> I'm a little bit skeptical (surprise surprise) that it's even possible to have this amount of certainty it sounds like you're wanting w/ regard to dates and cutoff, but i get the desire
15:51:39 <donuts> we need some structure and objectives we can align to
15:52:07 <richard> yeah I agree
15:52:20 <donuts> cool, that's all I'm looking for :)
15:53:31 <richard> alright wfm
15:53:52 <donuts> there will always be a degree of arbtirary-ness in any cutoffs, and some flexibility will be necessary
15:54:01 <donuts> but it's still good to have a date in mind for when designs should be delivered and for when we shift our focus to stability imo
15:54:13 <donuts> that's what I'm aiming for wrt to timelines
15:55:17 <donuts> (this is all up for discussion ofc)
15:55:36 <dan_b> so we have this weeks release meeting in 5 min?
15:55:50 <donuts> the main thing I'd like to do is try and agree on the major dev/ux work as early as possible
15:56:04 <richard> dan_b: yeah, but we can stay in IRC if poeple prefer
15:56:14 <richard> we can awlays move to #tor-meeting2
15:56:25 <PieroV> donuts: I think we could untie it from the actual releases
15:56:39 <PieroV> And have this kind of work even when we're already finalizing the previous release
15:56:50 <PieroV> For a smoother transition
15:56:52 <richard> mmhm
15:57:05 <donuts> pierov: that crossed my mind too, but things are always very hectic during the last few weeks of a release
15:57:16 <donuts> so I'm not sure how realistic it would be in practice? although it makes sense, logically
15:57:27 <PieroV> Yeah, you're right and I don't like it
15:58:14 * ma1 likes when donuts is right
15:58:22 <PieroV> I wouldn't mind if we arrived earlier to a more stable result
15:58:26 <PieroV> Instead of having last minute changes
15:58:34 <donuts> yeah, that's pretty much the end goal :)
15:59:10 <donuts> okay I'll write-up what I imagine this meeting to be, and will sync with richard and bellatchau about where/when
15:59:27 <richard> perfect
15:59:41 <richard> alright, good meeting folks
16:00:03 <richard> have a good week and let's get 128 rebase reviewed please and thank you
16:00:04 <richard> o/
16:00:05 <richard> #endmeeting