15:00:21 <morganava> #startmeeting Tor Browser Weekly Meeting 2024-09-09
15:00:21 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Sep  9 15:00:21 2024 UTC.  The chair is morganava. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:00:23 <morganava> blesssed date it would seem
15:00:25 <brizental> o/
15:00:27 <jwilde> o/
15:00:37 <morganava> the pad per usual -> https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-keep
15:00:49 <boklm> o/
15:00:50 <dan_b> o/
15:00:52 <ma1> o/
15:00:53 <morganava> 14.0a4 went out last week (thx dan_b for building)
15:01:26 <morganava> with 14.0a5 planned for this week
15:02:11 <morganava> also, I will have unreliable availability this week on Wed and Thurs, so if we have meetings or 1:1s on those days we'll need to either cancel or reschedule
15:02:26 <catladyfelicia> o/
15:02:26 <Jeremy_Rand_Lab19[m]> Hi!
15:02:37 <morganava> gosh so many people
15:03:20 <morganava> PieroV: re your point, as far as i know, all we maybe know is that mozilla is planning ot announce their 13.5 plans 'soon'
15:03:44 <PieroV> morganava: it's out on whattrainisit
15:03:45 <morganava> can you give us a staus update re the the updater channel splitting patches and next steps on that?
15:03:50 <ma1> it's in the calendar
15:03:54 <PieroV> https://whattrainisitnow.com/release/?version=esr
15:03:55 <morganava> ooh based
15:04:32 <PieroV> Also, I had an announcement first
15:04:44 <PieroV> I'm AFK next week (I'm at the reproducible build summit)
15:04:55 <dan_b> ooh have fun!
15:05:03 * boklm will be there too
15:05:05 <PieroV> And will be AFK also on Mon 23 and Tue 24 (taking a day off in Germany since I'm there and then traveling on May 24)
15:05:25 <PieroV> I'll have my laptop with me, so I might be able to do emergency work
15:05:49 <PieroV> Thanks, dan_b :)
15:06:02 <morganava> :D
15:06:42 <PieroV> Regarding the update channel: I created a 115.15.0esr-13.5-2 branch with the updater patches
15:06:49 <morganava> weird so 13.5 support is officially ending before 140 starts
15:06:51 <morganava> alright
15:07:03 <PieroV> It also has ma1's security backports, so we should be able to use it for a build already, we just need to tag it
15:07:12 <PieroV> morganava: "We will re-evaluate this decision in early 2025 and announce any updates on ESR 115's end-of-life then."
15:07:44 <morganava> is it just for windows, or ar ethey also backporting macOS?
15:07:46 <PieroV> In the red banner at the top of the page
15:07:49 <morganava> security fixes
15:08:09 <PieroV> macOS, according to the same banner
15:08:20 <morganava> oh i was on the wrong page
15:08:22 <morganava> sorry sorry
15:08:45 <morganava> well alright then, looks like we've some certainty now
15:09:00 <PieroV> Yep, but we have a hard deadline anyway
15:09:07 <PieroV> November 1st or 3rd, I don't remember
15:09:30 <morganava> well yes, for android
15:09:34 <PieroV> Yep
15:09:41 <PieroV> 115.17 is scheduled for October 29
15:09:56 <PieroV> The next release is scheduled for November 26
15:10:07 <PieroV> But I really hope we don't go that late
15:10:24 <PieroV> As I'd prefer 14.5 to arrive early
15:11:06 <PieroV> Anyway, 13.5a10 should be ready for the tor-browser side, but I haven't done anything on tor-browser-build
15:11:12 <PieroV> I was waiting for the official confirmation
15:11:52 <PieroV> Do we need a proper alpha channel, or do we want only one for testing the updater in the 115 series?
15:12:18 <PieroV> In the latter case we don't even need another maint branch, but we could temporarily set 13.5a10 on rbm.conf...
15:13:43 <morganava> i guess the q is how confident are in in the changes
15:13:58 <PieroV> I hope a lot
15:14:04 <morganava> my understanding is you've been able to exercise the relevant scenarios in the -2 branch (on Windows at least?)
15:14:05 <PieroV> As they are in 14.0a4
15:14:32 <PieroV> Yes, I think I still have the relevant configuration in tb-build-03
15:14:32 <morganava> ah rightt
15:14:58 <PieroV> You can start from this one: https://tb-build-03.torproject.org/~pierov/torbrowser/nightly/tbb-nightly.2024.08.01/
15:15:12 <PieroV> And see everything works as expected
15:15:31 <morganava> not sure we're can get more confident than that then
15:15:48 <PieroV> I posted the details in some comments in a GitLab MR or issue, let me see
15:16:15 <PieroV> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-/merge_requests/1138#note_3068348
15:18:17 <thorin> /o
15:21:15 <morganava> alright i'll have a look after this meeting
15:21:38 <PieroV> I don't think we have anything imposing a timing on us
15:21:47 <morganava> given the esr extension, we can include these patches in a regularly scheduled 13.5.4
15:21:53 <PieroV> But I'd say the sooner the better
15:22:03 <PieroV> morganava: so, are you proposing we skip 13.5a10?
15:22:06 <morganava> or maybe the week before regularly scheduled so it doesn't get awkard for non-legacy users
15:22:30 <morganava> PieroV: is there a good reason to ship a 13.5.10?
15:22:33 <morganava> PieroV: is there a good reason to ship a 13.5a10?
15:22:43 <PieroV> morganava: have a watershed also on alpha
15:23:26 <morganava> erm
15:23:39 <PieroV> So that we don't need to think whether there are differences between alpha and stable users (even though some users will be excluded from this watershed)
15:23:47 <morganava> so this would affecct those users on legacy paltforms running 13.5a9
15:23:53 <PieroV> And also for maximum peace of mind
15:24:02 <PieroV> Yes
15:24:07 <morganava> who didn't get the 14.0a1 upgrade
15:24:38 <morganava> but we have no plans of maintaining a 13.5 alpha series do we?
15:24:55 <PieroV> Indeed. An alternative if we want to be aligned is to make the last 14.0a a watershed
15:25:20 <PieroV> No, I don't see a reason to do alphas, since they're going to be only Moz updates
15:25:26 <morganava> mmhm
15:25:52 <morganava> sorry why does the last 14.0aX need to be a watershed?
15:26:05 <morganava> i thought we just need a watershed 13.5.X
15:26:26 <PieroV> So that we know that all the alpha users got the updater patches and we can do also a couple of other changes that were planned with the first watershed
15:26:46 <PieroV> E.g., dropping a fontconfig thing in start-tor-browser
15:27:06 <PieroV> And simplifying the migration procedures
15:28:04 <PieroV> Also, it'd be great to backport the search engine update for the same purpose (drop the Twitter, YouTube, and Yahoo search engine extensions before the watershed)
15:28:05 <morganava> ohh ok
15:28:33 <morganava> so to ensur esmoetime in the future when we drop win 10 support, some poor 14.0a4 users doesn't try to upgrade to unsupported 16.0a1
15:28:46 <morganava> right ok and the other things too
15:29:13 <PieroV> There's also the hash change
15:29:14 <clairehurst> What does watershed mean in this context?
15:29:29 <morganava> clairehurst: a watershed version is an update all TB users upgrade through
15:29:30 <PieroV> clairehurst: it means that you force users to go through a mid version instead of a direct update
15:30:00 <morganava> eg if X is a watershed, all users on versions older than X will first upgrade to X then to current
15:30:09 <PieroV> E.g., users from 13.0.10 will go through 13.5.4 before updating to 14.0
15:30:22 <clairehurst> Ah cool thanks!
15:30:35 <PieroV> However, we will have to keep hashes for a while for nightly builds
15:30:53 <PieroV> Because wathersheds on nightly builds would be annoying
15:31:06 <PieroV> (or we just break very old builds at a certain point...)
15:33:18 <morganava> ok so tldr, we plan to release 13.5a10 as a watershed update, and 14.0aX also as a watershed update, and finally the last 13.5.X as a watershed update
15:33:54 <morganava> and of course our release calendar is again completely out of date
15:34:10 <PieroV> Yes, that sounds like a plan to me
15:34:34 <morganava> well at least we have a bit of breathing room with the extended ESR schedule
15:34:37 <PieroV> Maybe instead of keeping the update data forever in cdn.tpo, at a certain point we can modify the update responses to point to archive.tpo
15:36:14 <boklm> good idea
15:37:56 <PieroV> morganava: bw, it'd be interesting to see how many users are pinging from 13.5a10
15:38:06 <PieroV> * btw
15:38:23 <morganava> it would be
15:38:26 <PieroV> I think we can't right now, but maybe it's a query that can be added to metrics.tpo
15:38:36 <boklm> we still have a copy of 11.5.8 on cdn.tpo and could use archive.tpo URLs instead
15:38:37 <PieroV> hiro opened an issue for me about that a while ago
15:38:44 <PieroV> boklm: yep, good idea
15:38:52 <morganava> mmhm
15:38:54 <PieroV> Is 11.5.8 one that has all the various languages?
15:39:06 <boklm> I think yes
15:39:34 <morganava> that's from awhile ago wow
15:39:40 <henry-x> morganava do we need to update the warning message that is currently showing on windows <= 8.1?
15:40:15 <PieroV> morganava: yep, so we don't have to keep it on cdn.tpo, but we don't have to delete the update responses either, as they're very light
15:40:44 <PieroV> AFAIK changing the URLs in the update responses doesn't involve signing again or something like that, but just running the right incantations of sed :
15:40:46 <PieroV> :)
15:40:55 <morganava> henry-x that's a good question
15:41:44 <boklm> PieroV: yes, we only need to update the xml files in tor-browser-update-responses.git/update_pre12.0/release
15:41:48 <morganava> I suppose we could soften the messaging, let them know' ok you're on a supported release for now but the future is scary plz upgrade'
15:42:06 <morganava> or just remove the banner altogether
15:42:40 <morganava> henry-x can you open an issue and cc myself and donuts?
15:42:41 <ma1> +1 for a softer message still encouraging to upgrade or switch OS
15:42:50 <henry-x> ok
15:43:01 <PieroV> "hey plz thank Moz for this" :)
15:43:34 <morganava> i like to believe our whining helped a little :3
15:43:45 <morganava> but perhaps not lol
15:44:34 <morganava> ok any other topics of announcements for today's meeting?
15:44:38 <henry-x> Is there any question about support for old mac os being extended?
15:44:53 <morganava> old macOS is also being extended
15:44:54 <PieroV> It is, but I think we're not
15:45:25 <morganava> well hmm
15:46:08 <morganava> ok i'm of the opinion that if we're maintaining a 13.5 legacy channel, we may as well do macOS too
15:46:30 <morganava> it's barely additional work
15:46:39 <PieroV> It's twice the work though :P
15:46:43 <PieroV> 4 builds instead of 2
15:46:52 <morganava> computer work and signer work vOv
15:47:07 <morganava> i mean
15:47:08 <PieroV> Computer costs power, it isn't green :P
15:47:13 <morganava> ok objectively there's hardly any users
15:47:36 <PieroV> Also, we could probably build only x86_64 for macOS
15:47:38 <morganava> on the other hand good-will? or at least no bad-pr from those 5 users lol
15:47:55 <PieroV> I don't believe M1 is supported on anything older than 11 or 10.15 maximum
15:48:04 <PieroV> (nor M2 and followers)
15:48:20 <PieroV> Well, Apple users are used to be left unsupported
15:48:49 <morganava> how annoying is it going to be to remove the fat-dmg pipeline from the build?
15:48:59 <morganava> well actually testbuilds are only single-arch aren't they?
15:49:00 <PieroV> It's supported on testbuilds
15:49:02 <morganava> ack
15:49:12 <PieroV> But it's more a boklm question
15:49:36 <morganava> i think i'd rate that as nice to have for an initial 13.5.X but not a blocker
15:50:13 <boklm> yes, we have makefile targets for single arch builds, but we need to check if it's still working fine as I think we're not using them very often
15:51:56 <boklm> in theary using the browser-macos-x86_64 target instead of browser-macos should be enough
15:52:32 <morganava> well, i know we have at least 1 users, since a legacy mac user emailed me over the weekend asking about legacy support (but that was before mozilla finalised their plan)
15:53:27 <boklm> do we know how many legacy macos users mozilla have?
15:53:41 <morganava> according to the graphs
15:53:43 <morganava> very very few
15:53:55 <ma1> I know NoScript has many users on Firefox 78 because of MacOS :/
15:54:32 <ma1> (or, rather, vocal users)
15:54:32 <dan_b> esh
15:55:06 <morganava> basically my take is if there's no extra dev work involved lets support macOS, otherwise lets' forget about it and move on with our lives
15:55:21 <morganava> i'm fine spending time on biulds and the minimially extra time to sign+notarise etc
15:56:14 <morganava> ok we've 4 minutes
15:56:36 <morganava> if there's ntohing else, then we can call it
15:57:13 <ma1> I'm good
15:57:26 <PieroV> Nothing from me
15:57:42 <boklm> nothing from me
15:58:20 <morganava> ok, if you are somehow looking for tasks, here's our relevant query for 14.5 -> https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/applications/-/boards?not[label_name][]=14.5%20stable&label_name[]=14.0%20stable
15:58:30 <morganava> have a good week everyone o/
15:58:32 <morganava> #endmeeting