14:00:47 <karsten> #startmeeting Measurement team meeting
14:00:47 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jul 15 14:00:47 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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14:00:56 <karsten> who's here for the meeting?
14:01:01 * qbi is.
14:01:06 <tomlurge> i am
14:01:13 <leeroy> me
14:01:41 <karsten> hi qbi, tomlurge, leeroy!
14:01:48 <qbi> hi karsten
14:02:25 <karsten> I'll start suggesting an agenda, and maybe more people will have joined us by when I'm done.
14:02:26 <aagbsn> here
14:02:31 <karsten> hi aagbsn
14:02:32 <leeroy> hello
14:02:53 <karsten> so, this is the second meeting, and last time we mostly did introductions. that's why we should do:
14:03:01 <karsten> 1. introductions of people who haven't been here last week.
14:03:20 <karsten> (under the assumption that introductions from last week are in the log for anyone to re-read.)
14:03:28 <karsten> I'd also want to talk about:
14:03:39 <karsten> 2. problems that came up last week and problems that came up since then.
14:03:47 <karsten> things we can solve now or think about solving soon.
14:03:54 <karsten> and then,
14:04:05 <karsten> 3. products: what's the scope of our products, what's their status, what's their future.
14:04:17 <karsten> that will be an experiment that involves an etherpad.
14:04:24 <karsten> I hope to spend most time on that today.
14:04:32 <karsten> and finally,
14:04:41 <karsten> 4. discussion, misc, whatever you call it.
14:05:17 <karsten> that's all. we should be done by 15:00 utc. an hour per week should be enough.
14:05:26 <karsten> thoughts?
14:05:37 <phw> (i'm here too, sorry for being late.)
14:05:44 <karsten> hi phw
14:06:21 <phw> looks like a good schedule to me.
14:06:22 <karsten> okay then, let's start with
14:06:26 <karsten> great!
14:06:29 <karsten> 14:03:31 < karsten> 1. introductions of people who haven't been here last week.
14:06:48 <karsten> tomlurge: I think that's only you for now. want to give a quick introduction of yourself?
14:06:53 <tomlurge> maybe I …
14:06:56 <tomlurge> yeah
14:07:08 <tomlurge> I’m working on a tool called visionion
14:07:26 <tomlurge> which will be a visualization frontend to metrics data
14:07:33 <karsten> +1
14:07:34 <tomlurge> you can look it up on github
14:07:55 <tomlurge> i’m terribly slow…
14:08:06 <karsten> but you're still working on it!
14:08:11 <tomlurge> (not only with typing ;-)
14:08:14 <karsten> when did we first talk about it? which congress was that?
14:08:15 <tomlurge> yes, i am!
14:08:31 <tomlurge> ahem, 30 months ago
14:08:40 <karsten> heh
14:09:04 <tomlurge> that’s all from me, i guess
14:09:10 <karsten> okay, cool. thanks!
14:09:21 <karsten> (didn't we have virgil around here half an hour ago?)
14:10:28 <karsten> well okay, let's move on, and when virgil comes back, we'll squeeze in another introduction somewhere.
14:10:36 <karsten> 14:04:08 < karsten> 2. problems that came up last week and problems that came  up since then.
14:10:46 <karsten> two things I wrote down from last week:
14:10:51 <karsten> - did hellais find help with maintaining bridge reachability probes?
14:10:51 <karsten> - did phw find help with handling reports about bad relays?
14:10:58 <karsten> phw: any updates?
14:11:38 <karsten> or rather, anything we can help with while we're talking here?
14:11:45 <virgil> oh I see this meeting just began---Oh hai---I exist.
14:11:50 <qbi> karsten: I exchanged an mail with hellais regards reachability probes.
14:11:58 <karsten> hi virgil :)
14:12:13 <karsten> virgil: let's finish this agenda item and then get back to introductions briefly.
14:12:20 <qbi> I might be able to help him, but haven't found the time to fully read his last mail which contained all details.
14:12:29 <karsten> qbi: oh, neat!
14:12:48 <phw> karsten: no updates.  i've been busy working on zoossh and sybilhunter.
14:12:53 <karsten> thanks for helping with that, qbi!
14:13:03 <karsten> phw: ok.
14:13:35 <karsten> phw: please bring it up again at one of the next meetings if you think this group can help.
14:13:48 <karsten> (don't want to nag you unnecessarily when you're enjoying writing code.)
14:14:20 <karsten> sounds like there's nothing more to do about these two problems.
14:14:35 <karsten> did any other problems come up that we should discuss today?
14:15:03 <phw> not for me.
14:15:41 <karsten> great.
14:15:41 <leeroy> nope
14:15:54 <karsten> okay, should we move on to the fun then?
14:15:59 <karsten> 14:04:34 < karsten> 3. products: what's the scope of our products, what's their  status, what's their future.
14:16:19 <karsten> my plan was to start an etherpad somewhere
14:16:24 <karsten> (any preferences?)
14:16:41 <qbi> storm?
14:16:44 <karsten> and come up with a) a list of products and b) a list of questions.
14:16:52 <karsten> does storm require registrations?
14:17:09 <karsten> and if so, does it send emails quickly?
14:17:27 <karsten> and can anyone register, including people without .tpo address?
14:17:36 <qbi> IIRC you can set the pad to be an open one.
14:17:40 <karsten> aha!
14:17:46 <karsten> can you do that for us?
14:18:46 <qbi> I'm just trying
14:18:52 <karsten> so, this pad is about writing "fact sheets" for our products.
14:19:14 <karsten> where a product means something like virgil's roster, tomlurge's visionion, etc.
14:19:29 <virgil> I don't know this visionion, but I love the name.
14:19:38 <tomlurge> oh, thanks :)
14:19:39 <karsten> for each product we would ask ourselves questions about scope, dependencies, design, operation, future planning, etc.
14:19:48 <karsten> and soon there will be a fact sheet to find out more! ;)
14:20:12 <karsten> the idea is to get a rough overview of what exists in this part of the tor ecosystem.
14:20:36 <qbi> karsten: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/6_LHT814bdvcA6dti5YOQJftWR7pCqVk7ROVtxOb44m
14:20:42 <karsten> maybe we'll find out that some pieces overlap heavily, or that we don't have anything in a certain area, etc.
14:20:50 <qbi> This is editable by anyone who knows the URL.
14:21:06 <karsten> cool, let's all log in.
14:21:15 <karsten> thanks for setting it up, qbi!
14:21:22 <qbi> np
14:22:28 <karsten> okay, let's keep the chat here for our dear meetbot to notice.
14:22:50 <karsten> regarding questions,
14:23:00 <karsten> I wrote such a fact sheet with dgoulet a while ago.
14:23:13 <karsten> I categorized those questions a bit and will paste them into the pad.
14:23:45 <karsten> everyone, feel free to add products or questions.
14:24:07 <karsten> how about we do that for 10 minutes or so?
14:24:15 <karsten> (does this plan even make sense to anyone else?)
14:25:01 <qbi> OK for /me
14:25:26 <karsten> great! :)
14:31:59 <nickm> starting network team meetting in #tor-dev now!
14:33:31 <karsten> pad action is going quite well, should we give it another 5 minutes?
14:37:58 <tomlurge> I am answering inline. Is that how the pad is meant?
14:38:24 <karsten> not quite, but you're the best person to start writing that fact sheet, so that work won't get lost.
14:38:49 <karsten> (the surprise will be that we'll all have homework after this meeting, and that will involve writing, err, something...)
14:39:06 <tomlurge> ha!
14:40:01 <karsten> so, we might need more input on the possible questions.
14:40:44 <karsten> the quetions I pasted there were quite specific to dgoulet's hs health thing.
14:41:06 <karsten> when you think about other products, what questions might we have?
14:41:20 <karsten> now is a good time to ask them. well, to write them on the pad.
14:43:34 <karsten> okay, people start making the pad prettier. shall we come back here? :D
14:44:11 <karsten> virgil: should we move your question to our agenda item 4 and discuss it in a few minutes?
14:44:17 <karsten> 14:05:10 < karsten> 4. discussion, misc, whatever you call it.
14:44:19 <karsten> (not now)
14:44:33 <virgil> it is sufficiently pretty for me.  If you leave it with me longer I'll start \LaTeXing it.  Yes item 4.
14:44:58 <karsten> great! (and +1 on LaTeX!)
14:45:24 <karsten> removing that section from the pad. copied the question to a local editor for later.
14:45:37 <karsten> so,
14:45:48 <qbi> virgil: Go ahead. /me likes \LaTeXing :-)
14:45:54 <karsten> I'm counting 20 products.
14:45:59 <karsten> and we may still be missing a few.
14:46:04 <ohmygodel> hello i just heard about a measurement meeting going, and id like to watch :-)
14:46:12 <karsten> welcome ohmygodel.
14:46:22 <karsten> meetbot is listening, too, so you can read backlog later.
14:46:22 <MeetBot> karsten: Error: "is" is not a valid command.
14:46:28 <karsten> blah
14:46:31 <karsten> ohmygodel: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/6_LHT814bdvcA6dti5YOQJftWR7pCqVk7ROVtxOb44m
14:46:32 <ohmygodel> super thx
14:47:09 <karsten> how about each of us picks a product or three and starts writing a fact sheet for that until our next meeting?
14:47:36 <karsten> these don't have to be perfect, and we'll probably learn during this process and come up with better questions.
14:47:40 <karsten> but I guess we'll have to start somewhere.
14:48:05 <hellais> karsten: hi sorry for the lateness to the meeting
14:48:11 <karsten> hello hellais
14:48:16 <hellais> I had some unexpected things to tend to
14:48:22 <karsten> see my comment to ohmygodel for some context.
14:48:45 <karsten> sure, no worries. good to see you here now. :)
14:49:07 <karsten> so, how about we put names next to the products?
14:49:17 <hellais> sounds good
14:49:19 <karsten> where it's only allowed to write your own name. :)
14:49:30 <hellais> I will update that document with some information later
14:49:35 <hellais> you can put my name freely :)
14:49:36 <karsten> neat!
14:50:31 <karsten> we don't have to put a name next to all products for now, I'd say.
14:51:18 <karsten> how about we write fact sheets on the same pad or on pads linked from this one?
14:51:19 <aagbsn> does storm show edit ownership by line only?
14:51:34 <aagbsn> it seems that someone can edit your text and not change attribution
14:52:11 <karsten> it also doesn't show any colors.
14:52:17 <karsten> could be a preference hidden somewhere?
14:53:40 * qbi looks
14:53:56 <karsten> how does that plan sound? pick 1, 2, or 3 products now, write your name next to it like (fact sheet: $you), write such a document in the next 7 days either on this pad or on a pad linked from this one.
14:54:32 * karsten notices how short an hour can be..
14:55:27 <karsten> okay, sounds like everyone loves this plan and we can move on to the last agenda item 4.
14:55:30 <karsten> ;)
14:55:32 <karsten> 14:05:10 < karsten> 4. discussion, misc, whatever you call it.
14:55:37 <karsten> we have:
14:55:39 <karsten> Onionoo: Virgil wants family-ids.  I propose this as a stop-gap measure.  Accept/reject?  Discuss. https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/16599#ticket
14:56:01 <karsten> I'm going to add: time for next meeting? does this weekday and time work for everyone?
14:56:03 <karsten> anything else?
14:56:55 <aagbsn> I think this time is ok
14:56:58 <qbi> karsten, aagbsn: I don't see a config option to change the handling of colors etc.
14:57:26 <karsten> qbi: ok.
14:57:41 <qbi> Same time next week is OK for me.
14:57:48 <aagbsn> it overlaps with the network group meeting, but that is convenient so I can observe both
14:57:50 <virgil> same time is good by me.
14:58:12 <karsten> I noticed some overlap, too.
14:58:17 <karsten> if this works for people, great.
14:58:23 <tomlurge> from reading the last minutes i got the impression that a lot of people are working on/with visualizations. made me a bit nervous if visionion is still relevant and/or has the right focus
14:58:30 <tomlurge> time is good for me
14:58:40 <qbi> karsten: Do we have a specific format for the factsheet?
14:59:21 <karsten> qbi: see how dgoulet and I wrote the one for his tool. Q: A: newline, Q: A: newline.
14:59:29 <karsten> there are certainly better formats, but re-formatting is easy.
14:59:36 <karsten> pick the format you like most, I'd say.
14:59:51 <karsten> tomlurge: I'm not at all concerned that we have too many visualizations.
15:00:23 <karsten> tomlurge: there's a growing interest in visualizations. so I'd say don't worry about that. :)
15:00:24 <tomlurge> * phew *
15:00:25 <qbi> OK
15:00:40 <aagbsn> i would love help from someone who is good at visualizations :)
15:00:50 <karsten> virgil: we just crossed the 1-hour mark. let's talk about that ticket after the meeting?
15:00:59 <virgil> sure
15:01:00 <aagbsn> or to contribute to visionion
15:01:38 <tomlurge> aagbsn: sure! let’s talk about that after this meeting
15:01:45 <aagbsn> ok
15:01:52 <karsten> okay, anything we should discuss before the meeting ends?
15:02:14 <karsten> next meeting on july 22, 14:00 utc. will send another reminder next monday or tuesday.
15:03:10 <karsten> great, ending this meeting.
15:03:12 <karsten> #endmeeting