14:16:48 <karsten> #startmeeting Measurement Team meeting, take 2
14:16:48 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Aug 12 14:16:48 2015 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:16:48 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:16:56 <virgil> 1. add Sean to the Tor Tech Report
14:17:04 <karsten> yep
14:17:07 <virgil> 2. you can add me to a +, or leave me off if there's already too many authors.
14:17:14 <virgil> either is fine.
14:17:19 <karsten> will add you.
14:17:27 <karsten> https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/measurement-roadmap.pdf
14:17:32 <karsten> ^ latest version
14:17:43 <karsten> at some point I'll clean up the author block.
14:18:11 <SeanSaito> Thanks
14:18:17 <SeanSaito> how can I contribute to the report?
14:18:19 <karsten> so, let me tell you what I think could be next steps there.
14:18:38 <karsten> SeanSaito: depends on the contribution. if you want to make minor edits, send me a patch to....
14:19:00 <karsten> https://gitweb.torproject.org/user/karsten/tech-reports.git/tree/2015/measurement-roadmap/measurement-roadmap.tex?h=measurement-roadmap
14:19:23 <karsten> if you want to make major edits, obtain a lock by sending me an email, edit edit edit, and then send me a patch.
14:19:41 <karsten> so, my plan for this roadmap:
14:19:58 <karsten> 1. get more feedback from team members within the next couple of days or week.
14:20:34 <karsten> 2. ask people on tor-relays@, tor-dev@, tor-talk@, dir-auth@, etc. what features they want us to provide.
14:20:57 <karsten> 3. ask fundraising folks how we should set priorities between user groups or even specific features.
14:21:28 <karsten> 4. determine a set of projects for the next X months, think about finding volunteers and/or funding for them.
14:21:49 <karsten> what do you think about this plan?
14:23:19 <karsten> (if you prefer to read the current draft after this meeting and send feedback via email, that works for me, too.)
14:24:58 <SeanSaito> For 2, how do we plan to talk to users from Group 1 (the general public) in figuring out what features they would like to see?
14:25:31 <karsten> fine question. we might ask the people in tor who periodically talk to the general public.
14:25:44 <karsten> like those giving talks and doing outreach.
14:26:18 <SeanSaito> Right. And do we plan to have meetings with the Network Team as well in the future?
14:27:17 <karsten> ah, no, but we can ask them to give us a general idea what things they are interested in that doesn't change too quickly.
14:27:40 <karsten> that being said, you can always join the network team meetings as well if you're interested.
14:28:47 <SeanSaito> Interested. When are they held?
14:28:52 <karsten> to be clear, I don't think we'll have a perfect picture of what users want from us.
14:29:12 <karsten> but asking some users will ensure that it will be a better picture than something that we make up ourselves.
14:30:00 * karsten tries to find out
14:30:35 <karsten> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-news/2015-August/000108.html
14:30:47 <karsten> there are some upcoming events at the bottom.
14:31:14 <karsten> I don't think there's one network team meeting. but the little-t meetings are pretty close.
14:31:28 <karsten> and the Pluggable transports/bridges meeting belongs to Network Team, too.
14:31:52 <karsten> not sure whether these meetings are weekly or bi-weekly.
14:32:38 <karsten> okay, should we play a round of 1-1-1 task exchange while we're here?
14:32:47 <karsten> 1-1-1 task exchange: you get 1 minute to describe a task that would take somebody else roughly 1 hour and that they will do for you within 1 week (review a document, write some analysis code, fix a small bug, etc.; better come prepared to get the most out of this; give 1, take 1)
14:33:02 <karsten> virgil, SeanSaito, qbi: ^
14:33:32 <SeanSaito> I could start.
14:33:45 <karsten> sure, please do!
14:34:15 * karsten will collect tasks here: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/2U0TTCtYwu
14:36:23 <karsten> SeanSaito: do you mean start by describing a task or by picking the first task? :)
14:36:39 <SeanSaito> So I am currently implementing the gamefication features, the core of which is the badges/points allocated to each family based on their stats. The badges currently include bandwidth, consensus weight, exit bandwidth, size of family, geo diversity of relays, liberal exit policies, # of guard/exit relays and existence of contact info.
14:36:54 <SeanSaito> Sorry, describing the task (more than a minute has passed I guess)
14:37:06 <karsten> no, go ahead.
14:37:18 <karsten> it's the first time we're playing this game.
14:37:45 <SeanSaito> Put simply, I would like to have more ideas/categories for awarding badges/points.
14:37:52 * qbi doesn't really understand it.
14:38:14 <karsten> so, you provide a list of what you have, and the task is to add/edit that list?
14:38:22 <qbi> But I'm too distracted (phone calls, people coming into the office etc.)
14:38:51 <virgil> qbi: SeanSaito is looking for ideas for characteristics that make a relay awesome (or less awesome).
14:39:01 <SeanSaito> Yes. Well, this is something I just thought of right now.
14:39:05 <karsten> feel free to explain in more detail if you want. qbi would be a great person to think about this. (fresh brain!)
14:39:44 <SeanSaito> One idea I discussed with Virgil was to add a badge that indicates whether a relay is eligible for a Tor t-shirt.
14:39:46 <phw> (sorry for being late to the meeting.  nothing to report from my side, however.)
14:40:11 <karsten> hi phw! you can still participate in the 1-1-1 task exchange.
14:40:17 <SeanSaito> So it would be nice to add some fun badges like that too, in addition to the more important ones.
14:40:28 <karsten> okay, SeanSaito, added to the pad.
14:40:47 <karsten> should we collect more tasks first before we find people for them?
14:40:58 <qbi> virgil: thx
14:41:19 <karsten> SeanSaito: feel free to tweak the text on the pad.
14:41:41 <karsten> who's next?
14:41:55 <karsten> (feel free to pre-write your task description and paste it here.)
14:42:02 <virgil> I have a 1-hour fixable thing.  I'd like to know if anyone is using Onionoo's extended_family field.
14:42:09 <virgil> no wait--effective_family
14:42:27 <karsten> I know that nusenu was using it.
14:42:34 <virgil> okay that answers it.
14:42:40 <virgil> done.
14:42:43 <karsten> heh
14:42:53 <karsten> yes, let's leave it in and consider removing it in a few months from now.
14:43:18 * karsten adds a task:
14:43:21 <karsten> Investigate two display bugs in ExoneraTor's permanent link (#16588, #16589); some experience with Bootstrap would probably help.
14:43:54 <karsten> this is really something for a web designer.
14:43:57 <karsten> which I'm not.
14:43:58 <virgil> the MyFamily field is collected from the individual micro-descriptors, correct?
14:44:12 <karsten> server descriptors, not microdescriptors, but yes.
14:44:48 <karsten> more tasks?
14:45:07 <virgil> another 1hour thing would be add some client-side sanity checks to those.  E.g., if the fingerprint is longer than 40 characters, truncate it.
14:45:39 <karsten> or, let's turn that into "find out in which places it's possible/feasible to specify a relay with more than just its fingerprints"
14:45:56 <virgil> k.
14:46:03 <virgil> that's all I got.
14:46:50 <karsten> I have one more for people who like writing scripts:
14:46:57 <karsten> Automate the process of checking MaxMind's website for new GeoIP databases and updating tor's src/config/geoip* files (e.g., #16687).
14:47:11 <karsten> the current steps I'm doing are here: https://people.torproject.org/~karsten/volatile/README.geoip.local
14:47:46 <karsten> qbi, phw: do you have anything you want other folks to do for you?
14:48:21 <phw> karsten: no.
14:48:29 <karsten> ok.
14:48:50 <qbi> no
14:48:56 <karsten> ok.
14:48:59 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/2U0TTCtYwu
14:49:07 <karsten> who wants to take what? :)
14:49:30 <karsten> I think I could take virgil's task.
14:49:57 <karsten> I'm not sure if it's so useful to take SeanSaito's task, because I already did a braindump on that a while back.
14:50:12 <karsten> having somebody else do that would probably be more useful.
14:50:33 * karsten takes virgil's task.
14:50:58 <karsten> let me clarify the 1-hour bit.
14:51:12 <karsten> the idea is that you plan to take an hours to produce something useful.
14:51:27 <karsten> if the task takes you 1:10h, that's fine, too.
14:51:45 <karsten> but if you realize that you won't produce anything good after 15 minutes, stop doing it.
14:52:03 <qbi> I can have a look into the display bugs, but not sure if I'm webdesigner enough to finbd a fix
14:52:06 <phw> i'm happy to think about SeanSaito's task.
14:52:09 <karsten> maybe tell the task owner why you thought you could do it.
14:52:12 <virgil> Karsten, I could do your MaxMind task
14:52:24 <virgil> but I don't know where do update src/config/geoip
14:52:25 <karsten> sounds great!
14:52:49 <karsten> qbi: no worries if you don't find out.
14:52:55 <qbi> good
14:53:05 <SeanSaito> phw: Thanks!
14:53:28 <karsten> phw: do you have enough context, or do you need more info from SeanSaito?
14:54:23 * Sebastian arrives very late
14:54:24 <karsten> or, more generally, if somebody lacks context, just ask via email.
14:54:29 <phw> i think i have enough context, otherwise i'll drop sean an email.
14:54:30 <karsten> hi Sebastian!
14:54:33 <Sebastian> if anyone needs anything from me or I can help you, let me know :)
14:54:35 <karsten> phw: great!
14:54:48 <karsten> Sebastian: any tasks you want somebody else to do similar to these?
14:54:51 <karsten> https://etherpad.mozilla.org/2U0TTCtYwu
14:55:53 <karsten> anything else we should discuss today?
14:56:18 <Sebastian> figure out all places where threads are started inside Tor
14:56:32 <Sebastian> and under what conditions
14:56:35 <Sebastian> maybe? :)
14:57:00 <karsten> sure, why not.
14:58:06 * karsten figures that "how do I notice when a thread is started" almost disqualifies himself for this task..
14:58:36 <karsten> does anybody else feel more qualified?
14:59:28 <karsten> how about we leave it on the list for next week?
14:59:56 <Sebastian> sounds great to me
15:00:01 <karsten> perfect!
15:00:15 <karsten> okay, I think that's it for this week. let's talk again in a week from now!
15:00:20 <virgil> karsten: I've decided I'm going to fix the definition of median
15:00:20 <karsten> thanks for coming, everyone!
15:00:26 <virgil> in the tor sourcecode
15:00:36 <karsten> virgil: is it broken?
15:00:53 <karsten> or just not specified as clearly as it should be?
15:01:01 <virgil> for ordered list {a,b,c,d}, it returns b instead of (b+c)/2.
15:01:24 <karsten> yes. maybe that's for a reason (which I don't know).
15:01:40 <virgil> I look forward to hearing this reason when my patch is rejected.
15:01:41 <karsten> like, using value (b+c)/2 would break for some reason, whereas any of a, b, c, d would be fine.
15:01:45 <Sebastian> you cannot do that
15:01:51 <Sebastian> without breaking Tor's voting
15:02:21 <Sebastian> Tor's specification requires low median for a bunch of directory stuff
15:02:41 <karsten> sounds like a fine post-meeting discussion. again, thanks for coming, everyone! :)
15:02:44 <karsten> #endmeeting