20:03:35 <isabela> #startmeeting
20:03:35 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Feb 12 20:03:35 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:03:35 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:03:50 <isabela> buenas, who is here for the meeting?
20:03:57 <Sebastian> <--
20:04:00 <jagtalon> <--
20:04:15 <arma2> i am here and there is a meeting! may be i can be helpful.
20:04:25 <isabela> mrphs Lunar ping!
20:04:40 <mrphs> pong
20:05:10 <isabela> cool
20:05:19 <isabela> I had a quick agenda for us to get started
20:05:59 <isabela> real quick: this meeting is a work meeting focus on the implementation of the new design proposal created during Berlin dev meeting oct 2015
20:06:10 <isabela> so the agenda for it is:
20:06:23 <isabela> 1. Introductions
20:06:44 <isabela> 2. Review project planning (phases proposed, first tasks proposed)
20:07:19 <isabela> 3. website review process (if there is time we should talk about it if not we can next meeting)
20:07:28 <isabela> 4. tasks ppl can do and frequency of these meetings
20:07:29 <isabela> ufa!
20:07:42 <isabela> thoughts? changes?
20:07:54 <Sebastian> let's get started!
20:07:58 <jagtalon> sounds good to me!
20:08:18 <mrphs> :)
20:08:26 <textura> <--
20:08:50 <isabela> awesome! 1. Introductions / I am isabela Tor's product mananger and I am here to help y'all
20:09:01 <isabela> ops project manager :P
20:09:27 <mrphs> i dont mind if you play product manager here ;)
20:09:42 <Sebastian> I'm Sebastian, I'm the closest to website maintainer we currently have. I maintain the git repo where it lives, merge patches written by others or create them myself to fix issues reported via the bugtracker
20:10:13 <arma2> i'm roger. i wrote a lot of the words on the current website, 10 years ago, back when things were different. :)
20:10:43 <jagtalon> Yo! I'm Jag, and I currently do some frontend stuff for DuckDuckGo, and I have some free time to contribute :)
20:11:48 <isabela> mrphs textura ?
20:11:51 <textura> I'm textura. I am new here and would like to contribute with the project. I work with web development so could maybe help in this :)
20:11:52 <mrphs> and im nima, interested in making our website a bit more friendly
20:11:59 <isabela> cool!
20:12:04 <mrphs> user friendly*
20:12:19 <isabela> alright, so point #2
20:13:00 <isabela> first let me say that we are using trac for this work and soon we will have a git repo going on as well
20:13:16 <isabela> but for this point I wanted us to look at the wiki page where I am trying to document the project
20:13:25 <isabela> and the phases proposed for getting this done
20:13:38 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/Website/MainSiteRedesign
20:14:38 <isabela> this ticket has the tasks for phase one:
20:14:41 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/18243
20:15:20 <jagtalon> isabela: I have a question for phase 1 (can I ask questions at this point?)
20:15:27 <isabela> sure
20:15:29 <Sebastian> jagtalon: at any point!
20:15:34 <isabela> exactly!
20:16:14 <jagtalon> Ok so I know that we have personas on the page
20:16:27 <jagtalon> and that there are the kinds of users on the main page
20:16:54 <jagtalon> And I was wondering if we should be doing research or has that already been done?
20:16:55 <jagtalon> For example we could do user research so that the layout is made in a way that will convince new people and get them to download tor browser.
20:17:49 <mrphs> right, I was actually gonna ask what will happen to the needfinding that second muse is going to do? are they still going to do it?
20:18:15 <mrphs> or as jagtalon has mentioned, any user study on the current website
20:18:49 <mrphs> because starting to revamp things without a user study, might get us where we already are.
20:19:06 <isabela> about the personas documented in the wiki - Lunar and Sebastian might know more on it because it was done before I joined Tor
20:19:27 <isabela> the work mrphs is mentioning is a grant proposal we have
20:19:33 <isabela> but that haven't been approved yet
20:20:12 <isabela> we can go 2 ways here:
20:20:27 <Sebastian> The persona stuff was an old effort to imagine who might use the website
20:20:33 <isabela> 1. do research with this design and apply changes after that work is done (find volunteers to do it etc)
20:20:44 <Sebastian> at a dev mtg if I recall correctly. No actual user study
20:20:47 <isabela> 2. do the changes to the site and then do research to improve it
20:21:17 <isabela> for instance, research now is all in english
20:21:25 <isabela> so it will be for a very limited population
20:22:01 <mrphs> I guess what I'm trying to say is to make sure we include a proper study before mockup
20:22:16 <mrphs> whether it comes from second muse thing, or other researchers
20:22:29 <isabela> I was going to suggest to mock based on the discussion in berlin and then do research on the mocks we get
20:22:32 <mrphs> if that proposal fails, we need to find other ways to make that happen
20:23:01 <Sebastian> I agree with isabela on this
20:23:10 <Sebastian> we shouldn't delay mockups too much
20:23:11 <mrphs> I wasn't in berlin discussion so i dont even... :)
20:23:16 <isabela> well
20:23:19 <isabela> it was documented
20:23:36 <mrphs> link pls?
20:23:45 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/Website/MainSiteRedesign
20:23:58 <isabela> i think you saw this
20:24:04 <isabela> i showed to you in DC right after berlin
20:24:07 <jagtalon> isabela: I like that idea
20:24:08 <mrphs> oh i didnt scroll down
20:24:54 <mrphs> but mockups without an study to back them up, are just based on our guts and our "tastes"
20:25:01 <jagtalon> isabela: A similar question is: what would be the main audience? Is it people new to tor and we want them to download the tor browser?
20:25:14 <mrphs> that's not necessarily a good approach
20:26:23 <jagtalon> isabela mrphs it might help to know the target audience and then let's do research from there
20:26:40 <isabela> true, but in our case I think since our site is very bad and all in english, studies on it might not be as useful
20:26:45 <isabela> the audience is tor users
20:27:13 <isabela> and there is also the approach of just doing a big change and then test it - is not wrong to do it either
20:27:18 <jagtalon> isabela: current tor users?
20:27:20 <mrphs> so i argue there. the audience for the front page, is the first time users.
20:27:34 <mrphs> if you're already a tor user, you should be able to find docs etc.
20:27:43 <isabela> jagtalon: more new users I would say
20:27:46 <mrphs> but the main focus on the first page should be for first timers.
20:27:57 <isabela> yes
20:28:11 <isabela> that is the target in my view as well
20:28:20 <jagtalon> mrphs: same view here
20:28:48 <mrphs> okay, now that we're doing this based on our guts instead of sceince, at least we have aligned guts :)
20:29:00 <isabela> well
20:29:03 <isabela> not really right
20:29:15 <arma2> "tor users, current and future"
20:29:15 <isabela> we have people with experience here and we will apply science on this as well and continue to improve
20:29:54 <jagtalon> mrphs: mmm I was thinking more qualitative instead of qualitative when it comes to building websites
20:29:57 <mrphs> ditto. i was partially joking. bad humor. please move on :)
20:30:04 <jagtalon> *quantitative
20:30:46 <jagtalon> isabela:
20:30:53 <jagtalon> isabela: thanks for the answers! Mmmm sorry another question :)
20:31:04 <isabela> this is good discussion
20:31:09 <Sebastian> This is what the meeting is for
20:31:25 <jagtalon> I’m a bit unclear on how the community can help out with content mapping.
20:31:27 <isabela> and my next move is to ask, with this in mind, that we want to test our mocks, where this test will be?
20:31:31 <isabela> which phase
20:31:43 <jagtalon> oh phase 1
20:32:14 <isabela> I think those 3 questions can happen in paralel
20:32:23 <isabela> actually sorry
20:32:27 <isabela> those 2
20:32:30 <isabela> mocks and mapping
20:32:51 <isabela> mocks will be based on the discussion in berlin, what is already documented there in the wiki
20:32:57 <Sebastian> right, and once we have mocks I think the technical aspects can be hammered out while we're evaluating the mocks
20:33:18 <isabela> community can contribute with mocks
20:33:19 <jagtalon> isabela: it seems that content mapping can be done by one person, and I'm unclear how the community can help. Is it done by listing them all in the wiki?
20:34:03 <isabela> tbh I need to look at an old ticket I found today to see what has already been done and see what needs to be done to answer your question
20:34:10 <isabela> but I think one person could do it yeah
20:34:54 <jagtalon> isabela Sebastian maybe we can use http://codepen.io/ for testing out the mocks / sharing the mocks across the community and the tor people?
20:35:11 <jagtalon> isabela: ok thank you for answering the mapping question :)
20:35:56 <jagtalon> codepen to see how it feels I was thinking instead of a photoshop mockup
20:36:32 <mrphs> so i wanna take one step back and ask another question.
20:36:50 <mrphs> in the mocks from berlin discussion, there's a proposed layout
20:37:19 <mrphs> but what i for instance have in mind for the landing page, is quite minimalistic in comparison
20:37:56 <mrphs> I'm saying this, because of one of the interesting conversations i had with linda at the uxsprint last year
20:38:14 <Sebastian> jagtalon: it might work, yes.
20:38:16 <mrphs> we were talking about that mock up i made for about:tor page in tor-browser
20:38:35 <jagtalon> Thanks Sebastian
20:38:41 <isabela> ok, i think what the berlin mocks means is just what information we want to have in the first page. the order and how is displayed can be changed by designers but we did discussed a lot to agree on what info should be there
20:38:42 <mrphs> she has showed he to multiple ux researchers and they had a debate on how to measure whether it's going to be useful or not
20:39:02 <isabela> so I would not say that a designer or whoever wants to help need to design exactly like that
20:39:35 <isabela> but I would say that it should be guided by what is in the proposal
20:39:36 <mrphs> sure, I'm asking how would a designer decide?
20:39:38 <isabela> does that makes sense?
20:39:52 <jagtalon> mrphs: I'm not a designer but it could be spread out to have the aesthetic of modern websites https://imgur.com/a/YWFZK
20:39:59 <Sebastian> jagtalon: tho codepen is the kind of site that shows how we'll also be constrained. It doesn't work in Tor Browser with security slider set to high, which is something our website must do.
20:40:26 <isabela> mrphs: designer can read the notes from the discussion and get the point of what we are trying to get
20:41:04 <jagtalon> Sebastian: oh I didn't know that.
20:41:23 <jagtalon> Sebastian: it does have a debug view that removes all the cruft https://s.codepen.io/jagtalon/debug/jbQVbx
20:41:40 <jagtalon> I think sharing just that would work
20:41:46 <Sebastian> jagtalon: I'm not saying codepen has to work without js, but the end result of our website has to
20:41:47 <isabela> mrphs: also I think the person can ask questions to the team as well
20:42:07 <lars_> jagtalon: I think today casual users of the web expect websites to look like the modern websites of your link. It add some credibility to it.
20:42:26 <jagtalon> lars_: I think so too.
20:42:59 <jagtalon> Sebastian: I'll take note of that!
20:43:17 <lars_> nevertheless most of the frameworks rely on js to do some fancy work..
20:43:33 <lars_> but thats an implementation issue
20:43:40 <Sebastian> indeed
20:43:52 <isabela> cool I think we need to figure out how we will invite folks to help with mocks, method prefered for ppl to contribute
20:44:12 <isabela> maybe a latter we can copy and paste and send around with this info
20:44:18 <isabela> send to the www-list or ux team list
20:44:34 <isabela> *letter
20:44:35 <isabela> sorry
20:45:50 <jagtalon> isabela: will there be a dedicated designer for this project that will sift through the submissions / guide submissions or will this be a sort of voting on the Tor team's part?
20:46:42 <isabela> that is the goal here :) find someone to help with it
20:46:51 <jagtalon> isabela: oh gotcha!
20:47:52 <jagtalon> isabela: should it be done sequentially? i.e. no mockup work yet from contributors until the current website is mapped
20:48:15 <isabela> nope
20:48:21 <isabela> one thing does not block the other
20:48:35 <jagtalon> isabela: agree--so mockups as soon as possible then?
20:48:41 <isabela> map is more to know what are the things we need to remove, what we want to stay is already proposed on the berlin notes
20:49:07 <isabela> and by remove I mean, create a  new home
20:49:36 <isabela> and use this opportunity to thing on how to better organize stuff, what homes should there be etc
20:49:45 <isabela> *think
20:49:50 <isabela> my typing sux today
20:50:34 <jagtalon> isabela: gotcha thanks
20:50:35 <isabela> ok, so maybe we can have a pad going on to work on this letter
20:50:40 <isabela> what does people think?
20:50:49 <jagtalon> I like that
20:51:27 <Sebastian> yep
20:52:12 <isabela> I am creating one
20:52:42 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/kBob98Pm3ewFFXNU6HrJWFUeyMmOlMtJYPS0S27Rvjr
20:53:22 <jagtalon> Nice!
20:54:31 <isabela> ok question, should we work on it now or..?
20:55:13 <jagtalon> isabela: I don't have much time left unfortunately. Would it be ok to contribute asynchronously?
20:55:16 <isabela> [asking because it has been almost 1hr of meeting :)]
20:55:21 <isabela> I think so
20:55:34 <jagtalon> isabela: ok I'd personally prefer that
20:56:38 <isabela> ok - I think it will be a better use of our time left here in the meeting to decide when to meet again and give some frequency to these meetings
20:57:02 <jagtalon> isabela: that sounds good to me!
20:57:18 <Sebastian> Next Friday same time? I think we should meet at least weekly until Valencia.
20:57:42 <isabela> yes, next Friday same time
20:57:48 <isabela> we can pick up after valencia as well
20:57:51 <isabela> frequency is good :)
20:57:58 <jagtalon> Sebastian: I like that
20:58:12 <Sebastian> Also, we can use the mailing list in the mean time.
20:58:21 <isabela> +1
20:58:24 <jagtalon> Sebastian isabela is Valencia a meetup?
20:58:36 <Sebastian> jagtalon: it's Tor's winter developers' meeting
20:58:54 <isabela> ah! https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/meetings/2016WinterDevMeeting
20:59:00 <isabela> :)
20:59:06 <lars_> Just a short question for my understanding because I am new to this. How to we communicate and interact once we are working on the mockups / design / implementation? Where do we discuss features, design details and so on? Just via mailing list?
20:59:33 <isabela> I hope to have those via email list and on these meetings as well
21:00:13 <lars_> ok thanks!
21:00:59 <isabela> alright! sounds like we will meet again next Friday! :) I will send notes to the list and let people know
21:00:59 <lars_> I will try to get some time on the fridays too :)
21:01:02 <jagtalon> isabela: nice that's cool! I wonder if we could have some sort of livestream / video conference but prob not appropriate
21:01:49 <isabela> yeah, video is difficult and irc is more of how the rest of tor organizes
21:03:18 <isabela> ok! ending meeting now then
21:03:30 <Sebastian> thanks all!
21:03:37 <lars_> Thanks!
21:03:44 <isabela> thanks everyone for comming I am happy to see this moving!
21:03:53 <isabela> #endmeeting