17:02:46 <mrphs> #startmeeting
17:02:46 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jun  1 17:02:46 2016 UTC.  The chair is mrphs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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17:03:12 <mrphs> woo! okay, shall we do a round of updates to see what has everyone been up to?
17:04:30 <mrphs> ame_e: wanna update us on the process of the guideline? has there been any progress made?
17:04:43 <ame_e> Sure. Slow. But I can share what's happening.
17:05:09 <ame_e> First of all, I moved to Berlin for the year, so my personal, logistical challenges have been using way too much of my time.
17:05:27 <ame_e> But: we're in the final stages of sharing a list of people who are interested with OTF.
17:05:43 <ame_e> Scout (who I think will be joining soon) is our point person for OTF.
17:06:05 <ame_e> But the key challenge from my point of view is, we want to be very clear this isn't a contest where we pick a winner.
17:06:37 <ame_e> We are trying to amplify existing design work and ongoing efforts by the community.
17:07:15 <ame_e> The point of picking Style Guide as task 1 is to make it easier for many designers to contribute. So we want to be intentional about how to talk to the comunity, Tor users, the world about what this process is.
17:07:40 <ame_e> I'm delighted that so many people are interested, and we want to strike the balance of moving forward quickly.
17:07:54 <ame_e> Quickly haha I say as the one who's been the slowest lately
17:08:00 <ame_e> And being inclusive.
17:08:03 <sajolida> how many people said they were interested (roughly)?
17:08:13 * bnvk is Brennan Novak and is sorry he is late
17:08:14 <ame_e> Checking a doc...
17:08:23 <ame_e> Hi bnvk!
17:08:43 <bnvk> hi ame_e, welcome to Berlin
17:08:58 <ame_e> 7 rpeople
17:09:01 <ame_e> people that is.
17:09:02 <sajolida> nice!
17:09:12 <ame_e> And thank you @bnvk. I struggle with fast typing on irc
17:09:13 <bnvk> ame_e: is that response to the job posting?
17:09:36 <mrphs> ame_e: and how long do you think the process takes? can we have estimate dates? I'm asking to see how we can create a roadmap for ux at tor.
17:09:44 <ame_e> Yes. Many thanks for connecting me to the fab open source design community, most of the people interested came from there.
17:10:20 <ame_e> I think Scout is the best person for timelines, but she is a strong advocate of having Simply Secure push things forward quickly.
17:10:27 <bnvk> cool, I chatted with one of them a few days ago who said he had not heard back- glad it was received and reviewed
17:10:32 <ame_e> I would guess 2 weeks to start.
17:11:00 <ame_e> We're past due to send acknowledgments questions etc. And by we I mean me personally being distracted. Mea culpa.
17:11:31 <ame_e> Maybe add a week.
17:11:32 <mrphs> no pressure. you moved across the ocean. it takes time.
17:11:50 <ame_e> Well I didn't walk, but thank you. Yes.
17:12:33 <mrphs> so 3 weeks to pick the designer and for that person to start working?
17:12:43 <ame_e> In the process of sending acknowledgments and asking clarifying questions, one piece of information we do not yet have agreement on from OTF side is how big/long/much $ is in scope for this.
17:13:05 <ame_e> Some people have expressed interest, shared portfolios, included a sentence or two about directions.
17:13:34 <ame_e> Others have laid out a Vision of How Things Will Accumulate Over Time. Sorry not sure how to do emphasis in IRC.
17:14:11 <ame_e> Anyway, the point is, it's an open question what if any kind of normalizing process we would use to ask candidates what they would deliver in X weeks. If that makes sense.
17:14:14 <mrphs> that is indeed a big missing piece. (budget size from otf)
17:14:58 <ame_e> Scout's got fab product management chops, and I think realistic senses of tradeoffs. Our vision has been quick win that leaves obvious next steps.
17:15:07 <mrphs> ame_e: would you be able to share those visions and directions with the list, and if you can't share it publicly would you be able to share them with me?
17:15:45 <ame_e> Yes, I think so. We value transparency. Idea: we're lucky to have a community of talented designers.
17:16:11 <mrphs> I suppose it will be inspiring for people to hear how other designers think about the path we should take
17:17:19 <mrphs> okay, so what are our action items here?
17:17:36 <mrphs> should we contact otf to seek the info on the budget?
17:17:52 <ame_e> Scout and I are compiling a list to share with OTF, and will clarity on scope (which includes budget).
17:18:25 <ame_e> As needed we'll ask clarifying questions, and next week I can report back. Ideally an update of the Scout- OTF conversation. Sound good?
17:18:54 <mrphs> excellent!
17:20:05 <mrphs> this is kind of important as it will kind of shape how we move forward with other things. but i suppose we can continue doing other foundation work as you work things out with otf.
17:20:38 <ame_e> I will communicate urgency, and that there's a dependency that makes this piece logical to do now/next/ASAP.
17:20:48 <mrphs> thank you!
17:20:53 <mrphs> okay, who wants to go next?
17:21:01 <dcf1> i'll go
17:21:08 <mrphs> pls do :)
17:21:31 <dcf1> I think Linda is getting ready a tech report writeup of the Tor Launcher UX work to share.
17:22:09 <dcf1> Naturally all the source code and results etc. are online but we haven't really presented them yet.
17:22:29 <dcf1> Also I wrote a summary of someone setting up an obfs4 server for themself:
17:22:31 <dcf1> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/ux/2016-May/000155.html
17:23:05 <dcf1> I also wrote privately to the authors of the pluggable transport adapter programs.
17:23:16 <dcf1> One of them responded to me and even edited our wiki page.
17:23:20 <dcf1> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/PluggableTransports?sfp_email=&sfph_mail=&action=diff&version=112&old_version=111&sfp_email=&sfph_mail=
17:23:57 <dcf1> I only mention this in passing because I think it's an interesting area to investigate, how people set up their own connections.
17:24:03 <n8fr8> dcf1: that write-up was very interesting and helpful. I was thinking of writing up my own recent experiences with a custom meek deployment... well, I am doing it in fact :)
17:24:14 <dcf1> That is all I have.
17:24:37 <dcf1> That's great n8fr8, I will be interested to see it.
17:25:30 <mrphs> that's awesome work. I really hope we can tackle the usability of PTs on the server side in this team. it's one of the things that needs lots of work.
17:25:48 <mrphs> and I'm talking low level work :P
17:26:28 <n8fr8> for those that didn't see, we built meek into a vietnam election information app, and I worked with their team to setup the reflector on google could, their own backend meek bridge, etc. It wasn't hard, but there was also a lot that wasn't formally documented yet.
17:27:20 <n8fr8> (we == guardianproject). the design pattern was also interesting b/c if Orbot was installed it would use it, but if not, it would just use its own built-in meek.
17:28:08 <mrphs> interesting. speaking of orbot, do we have a consensus for tor on mobile, "the naming"?
17:28:11 <ame_e> Hmm. So is this on the conf side only?
17:28:56 <n8fr8> The Tor Browser team made a very persuasive/executive decision that, for at least the work on Android, that it should be integrated as directly into the main Tor Browser effort as possible, and be branded Tor Browser for Android.
17:29:24 <sajolida> \o/
17:29:29 <n8fr8> It doesn't address all the issues, such as iOS variations, but I am happy to support their decision.
17:30:11 <ame_e> Tor Browser for Android. Makes sense.
17:30:14 <ailanthus> n8fr8: That's great—one question: How does that impact users' understanding of whether they are location anonymous or not?
17:30:15 <n8fr8> Between now and whenever the project is deemed worthy of an official Tor Browser named release, it will remain Orfox, and we will update the icon to satisfy MOzilla
17:30:56 <isabela> hi
17:31:06 <isabela> sorry for jumping late
17:31:09 <n8fr8> The goal is that whatever promises we make for Tor Browser desktop will stand for Tor Browser for Android, and if there are deviations, we will clearly spell them out
17:31:28 <mrphs> n8fr8: is there any public record on how they decided to name it tor browser after all?
17:31:35 <ailanthus> I feel like branding can really help a lot with this
17:32:21 <n8fr8> mrphs: not that I have seen. It may have been in during a tor browser dev meeting I wasn't at, or a smaller discussion.
17:32:21 <mrphs> and I'm curious to know how we can 'clearly spell them out' - communicating danger to users is one of the big challenges in UX
17:32:47 <ame_e> Really curious. Inspired by Orbot, Tor, etc, but naming names at all I wrote a blog post on naming. But I would appreciate learning what generalizable lessons came from that. I mean the name in general. not "clearly spell them out." I type too slow.
17:33:08 <ailanthus> mrphs: Color coding, even, could help a lot — green = location safe; orange = anti-censorship but not location safe
17:33:34 <n8fr8> well, step 1 is remove as many differences as possible. I think we can get there, and I feel like georg and mikeperry and others feel we can to, within what we can control inside of the app itself.
17:34:07 <n8fr8> As georg said, thinking that Tor Browser running on a random install of Windows is somehow more safe than Tor Browser on Android is an idea we need to hopefully put to rest.
17:34:16 <ailanthus> n8fr8: +1
17:34:21 <n8fr8> but if not, then we need to say "This is how Android adds increased risk: 1) 2) 3)"
17:34:36 <n8fr8> let's table this for another time, but thats the branding decision for now.
17:35:00 <isabela> GeKo spoke about it on ux list too
17:35:15 <isabela> (sorry reading things)
17:35:24 <isabela> but I think ppl can always follow up with him there
17:35:31 <n8fr8> on the iOS front, we'll continue to work with mtigas on the Onion Browser effort, and are working on a huge UI update by using the Endless Browser project as a basis, which is quite beautiful
17:35:46 <n8fr8> branding is TBD, but we are definitely moving closer to a free, more usable release there
17:35:54 <mrphs> just trying to make sure we document whatever process we pick, so if it succeed or failed, we can look back and see why.
17:35:57 <n8fr8> though not something that could be called "Tor Browser for iOS" yet
17:36:18 <n8fr8> I agree mrphs. I will write a post mortem to the tor-ux list, and see what the TB wants to say on that front
17:36:31 <isabela> +1
17:36:43 <ame_e> Indeed.
17:37:01 <sajolida> mrphs: regarding the name "Tor Browser" the change from "Tor Browser Bundle" was tracked in #11193
17:37:53 <mrphs> right.
17:38:45 <n8fr8> (more on iOS Endless Browser project here: https://github.com/jcs/endless and here: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/endless-browser/id974745755?mt=8)
17:39:22 <n8fr8> that's all for me today
17:39:43 <mrphs> n8fr8: I'd very much like in the near future that we put ux as one of the foundation layers of creating our projects, not just a final touch kind of thing.
17:39:52 <mrphs> that requires a more solid workflow from the ux team
17:40:11 <mrphs> and of course more communication between the devs and designers about all things ux
17:40:35 <sajolida> ^from my experience that a very complicated part
17:40:36 <n8fr8> That's how we work at gp, as much as possible, with well paid UX staff involved from the beginning.
17:40:45 <n8fr8> so i completely agree.
17:41:34 <mrphs> n8fr8: would it be possible to share your ux workflow with the list? and we'd welcome your ux staff on the list as well :)
17:41:59 <n8fr8> WIll do.
17:42:04 <mrphs> I'm excited to hear you have paid staff for this
17:42:19 <mrphs> sajolida: I bet we could learn from tails project too
17:43:00 <sajolida> probably :)
17:43:24 <sajolida> if you think that's relevant i could update on what we've been up to this week at tails-ux
17:43:33 <mrphs> pls do
17:43:41 <mrphs> we could learn from the work flow
17:44:40 <sajolida> we have quite a few UI designs in discussion, for example:
17:44:41 <sajolida> - a simplification on the interface of Tails Installer (https://mailman.boum.org/pipermail/tails-ux/2016-May/000990.html, https://labs.riseup.net/code/attachments/download/1369/1.png)
17:45:02 <sajolida> we finally found a volunteer to write the corresponding code, and he drafted some UI
17:45:47 <flexlibris> hi, community team meeting here in 15 min
17:45:58 <sajolida> - also, there's a running GSoC on Tails Server, which would be an application to start services from Tails (let's say an Etherpad instance for example), and I insisted for the student (segfault) to publish mockups from his work as early as possible
17:46:14 <sajolida> we're now discussing his second iteration, here: https://mailman.boum.org/pipermail/tails-ux/2016-May/000953.html
17:47:27 <sajolida> as you were saying earlier mrphs, this time we're trying to design the frontend and the backend in parallel right from the start
17:47:51 <sajolida> and that's it for me, I think
17:47:58 <mrphs> that's great. I'm gonna read those posts after the meeting.
17:48:05 <sajolida> cool!
17:48:34 <sajolida> and ame_e: Susan that I met in Valencia joined our mailing list and is writing quite actively now!
17:48:55 <ame_e> Terrific. That was such a good session (for me as a participant).
17:49:22 <ame_e> I'm so glad you connected, she's got lots of know-how.
17:49:33 <sajolida> she does :)
17:49:50 <mrphs> I think I'll spend this week and next updating our wiki page, and to specially adding some of the open questions we need to find answers for.
17:51:20 <mrphs> just before wrapping this meeting up, one quick question for everyone:
17:51:33 <mrphs> next meeting is going to be 2weeks from now on the same day/hour - does this still work fine for you?
17:51:50 <ame_e> Yes
17:51:51 <mrphs> (just double checking, since we didn't get much feedback on the email)
17:52:02 <mrphs> ok perfect.
17:52:03 <sajolida> should work for me
17:52:10 <flexlibris> oh hi ux meeting, didnt see you there, please take yr time finishing :D
17:52:28 <ame_e> HI flexlibris. Nice to see you
17:52:38 <dcf1> Well if it isn't our hated foes, the community team.
17:52:43 <flexlibris> hi ame_e !!!
17:52:48 <isabela> :)
17:53:01 <mrphs> alright
17:53:36 <mrphs> thank you everyone!
17:53:42 <sajolida> see you!
17:53:43 <mrphs> #endmeeting