17:02:53 <mrphs> #startmeeting UX team bi-weekly meeting
17:02:53 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jun 15 17:02:53 2016 UTC.  The chair is mrphs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:02:53 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:03:16 <PhilipL> this new schedule doesn’t really work
17:03:42 <mrphs> I should have sent a reminder
17:04:01 <mrphs> and also the past two weeks hasnt been the most productive weeks for many of us for some obvious reasons
17:04:09 <mrphs> but anyways, we can still get some work done
17:05:12 <PhilipL> ok, what are we talking about today? I think I need an update. I just read that there seems to be a designer for the style guide. Any other projects?
17:05:47 <ame_e> Hi Philip
17:05:51 <PhilipL> Hi Ame
17:05:59 <ame_e> Have you checked your email?
17:06:04 <PhilipL> Just read your mail. Yes
17:06:27 <PhilipL> 1) yes. i would do that
17:06:27 <PhilipL> 2) there is no license fee for consulting
17:06:51 <mrphs> can we have some background context here? :)
17:06:57 <ame_e> Yes.
17:07:01 <ame_e> Taps mic.
17:07:08 <PhilipL> :)
17:07:17 <ame_e> Hellllooo I'd like to give an update on the Simply Secure invovlement in a style Guide.
17:07:24 <ame_e> Who else has stuff for the agenda.
17:07:27 <ame_e> ?
17:07:38 <mrphs> I'd like to see if we can start working on a roadmap
17:07:41 <mrphs> or a draft of one
17:07:48 <scouttle> hi, all!
17:07:54 <scouttle> is the meetingbot running?
17:08:01 <scouttle> (sorry to be a bit late)
17:08:13 <mrphs> but let's start with the style guide and see where we can go with it, since it has a higher priority
17:08:18 <mrphs> scouttle: hi! yes, it is.
17:08:31 <scouttle> w00t
17:08:41 <mrphs> welcome back :)
17:08:57 <sajolida> i'm here (a bit late)!
17:08:58 <ame_e> One second, please.
17:09:41 <ame_e> Sorry someone is trying to come to my apartment with a ladder.
17:09:49 <ame_e> so more like 2 minutes.
17:10:23 <PhilipL> what is going on there in Berlin?
17:10:37 <ame_e> Ok. wrong apartment. I'm back
17:10:48 <ame_e> Anyway.
17:11:13 <ame_e> We asked for designers interested in working on the Style Guide and had some wonderful portfolios of very very strong work.
17:11:23 <ame_e> It was really good to see strong design work + interest.
17:11:47 <ame_e> Our process was to narrow it down to a short list, and we'll share those criteria.
17:12:01 <ame_e> The designer doing the style guide will be Elio Qoshi
17:12:33 <ame_e> Not sure if you know him, hang on while I link to something of is, but he has a Design consultancy focused on open source projects.
17:13:02 <ame_e> His previous work includes community work for Mozilla, including helping their mix of staffers and volunteers come up with standards for logo use.
17:13:08 <mrphs> that's great news!
17:13:13 <ame_e> But it was a tough decision. And PhilipL here;
17:13:18 <ame_e> Hi Philipl!
17:13:46 <ame_e> also has some particularly relevant experience, and is also a contributor here, knows the community and context etc,
17:13:58 <ame_e> so Philip will be consulting as a reviewer.
17:14:16 <ame_e> The exact details of what that means are still to be hashed out, but as an envelope,
17:14:32 <sajolida> all of this sounds very nice!
17:14:37 <ame_e> Elio has estimated 2 weeks to do the guide, and would like to start next week.
17:14:38 <PhilipL> Yes, that sounds great
17:15:00 <mrphs> yes, indeed. does Elio use IRC? is he on our mailing list?
17:15:00 <scouttle> (Note: we still have to sort out contracts and whatnot. So it might be a bit later than that.)
17:15:02 <ame_e> So PhilipL here can meet with Elio, share some context, history, be a community conenction point.
17:15:43 <ame_e> Also design is best done with many eyes. So it seems like a good way to set this up so that more people (Philip, other people who applied for this job, other people in the world we don't know yet) can contribute going forward.
17:16:06 <ame_e> Elio does use IRC, and he is not yet on the mailing list.
17:16:14 <mrphs> excellent
17:16:25 <ame_e> I don't know the etiquette around subtweeting. Or subirc-ing, but hang on while I paste in a link or two about who he is.
17:16:52 <sajolida> https://elioqoshi.me/
17:16:56 <mrphs> while we want PhilipL and elio to work together for a better result, we also want elio to become part of this team, so we can have better direct communication
17:17:19 <ame_e> Thanks Sajolida.
17:17:24 <ame_e> I had this for his new agency
17:17:25 <ame_e> http://ura.al/
17:17:37 <ame_e> Agency probably wrong word for FLOSS activist, but whatever.
17:17:48 <ame_e> So yes to integration.
17:17:55 <isabela> o/
17:17:57 <ame_e> Elio is totally game to come here, communicate however.
17:18:04 <isabela> sorry folks I am in a meeting at the Tor office in Seattle
17:18:11 <ame_e> One thing on my mind is Elio comes from a hacker background.
17:18:18 <ame_e> And not all of the candidates do.
17:18:28 <mrphs> yeah I'm loving https://elioqoshi.me/en/mozilla-logos/
17:18:40 <ame_e> So one thing to think about is in the future, there be a designer (like me of a few months ago) who might be like ZOMG IRC WTF.
17:18:59 <ame_e> But for now, this feels like a strong way to start quick, and get something turned around in a few weeks.
17:19:31 <ame_e> And that's the starting point. So Philip involved like a coach, guide, etc at fewer hours. Elio doing the work.
17:19:45 <ame_e> But the end it's an open, live document that invites others to do more.
17:20:00 <mrphs> excellent!
17:20:39 <scouttle> so, our next step is to get final approval from OTF
17:20:52 <scouttle> and get contracts with E and P
17:20:59 <scouttle> and then the work can officially begin!
17:21:48 * isabela read the backlog
17:21:49 <isabela> that is great stuff
17:21:55 <isabela> thanks a lot scouttle ame_e
17:22:21 <PhilipL> yeah, looking forward to working with Elio
17:22:42 <isabela> PhilipL: \o/
17:22:49 * isabela told shari about the news
17:22:55 <isabela> :)
17:23:20 <ame_e> This might be a moment to talk how we share the process.
17:23:39 <mrphs> a write up to summerize the process would be great
17:23:46 <mrphs> i can help you to get it published on tor blog
17:23:54 <ame_e> Tor is the flagship in this space, and many other efforts can benefit by seeing how we figured this out, what we did.
17:24:08 <ame_e> For example, Philip knows typography
17:24:20 <ame_e> and there are implications around open type choices, etc
17:24:36 <ame_e> I'm thinking about how we can capture and share some of that knowledge with more people.
17:25:06 <mrphs> oh i didnt know that PhilipL is into typography.
17:25:38 <PhilipL> yes. typography, type design, corporate design
17:25:45 <mrphs> PhilipL: one of the things you might find interesting to do is checking different fonts in tor browser on different OS.
17:25:51 <mrphs> to see whether they look sane
17:26:35 <mrphs> because of some fingerprinting attacks that is based on fonts, we isolate the number of fonts that can be loaded in browser
17:26:53 <mrphs> that means we would have to replace some fonts with their neighbors
17:27:08 <PhilipL> sure, we have to look for a distinct quality, but unfortunately, there is no font that looks the same on different os in different browsers.
17:27:21 <mrphs> and that means sometimes websites look slightly different than what they should look like on any other browser
17:27:23 <scouttle> Ooh, that's got to make some webpages look realllly ugy. :(
17:27:38 * isabela suggest to put the process in the ux team page for reference?
17:27:41 <PhilipL> i didn’t know that
17:28:27 <PhilipL> ame_e: what do you mean by “how we can capture and share some of that knowledge with more people.”?
17:28:34 <mrphs> yes, there is a lot of stuff like that we need to tackle from UX prespective
17:28:37 <ame_e> +1 to UX team page, though I might need a reminder about where it is ;)
17:28:51 <ame_e> PhilipL, I mean, write up, bullet points, somethng like that.
17:29:05 <ame_e> I'm about to learn something right now, for example.
17:29:22 <mrphs> isabela: dont you think writing a blog post and then putting it on wiki as refrence might be easier?
17:29:23 * isabela suggest to create a check list with things like the font, window size etc that optmize for tor browser
17:29:23 <ame_e> I didn't know about the fingerprinting attack. I mean I still don't understand. But I'm aware it exists.
17:29:34 <isabela> mrphs: blog post about th eprocess?
17:29:57 <scouttle> Given that the work should only take a couple weeks once it gets started
17:30:08 <scouttle> I propose that we do a blog post and document the process once it's done
17:30:09 <mrphs> isabela: yes, as an annoucement that we've a team to work on style guideline and how we ended up having this team
17:30:21 <isabela> hmm
17:30:26 <isabela> i think is better to post the result
17:30:28 <scouttle> that way if something goes horribly wrong, we can adjust the process and learn from it and tell the whole story
17:30:32 <PhilipL> yes, let’s document it afterwards
17:31:07 <scouttle> but, I agree that it would be good to write up the process we've gone through to build the creative brief, select a designer, and the design/review work itself
17:31:17 <PhilipL> we could have one or two presentations in between
17:31:29 <isabela> scouttle: yes, we can have that documented in the team wiki
17:31:34 <mrphs> works either way, but we have to make sure to document things as we proceed, to make sure we also document the failures
17:31:43 <mrphs> or bumps on the road
17:32:01 <scouttle> yes, that makes sense!
17:32:02 <mrphs> that's how others can learn not to repeat it or do it in a better way, even.
17:32:51 <mrphs> it's also good for ourselves, to look back and be reminded what worked and what didn't
17:32:56 <isabela> we can list it under project
17:32:59 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam
17:33:00 <mrphs> specially since we're doing a lot of things for the first time
17:33:01 <isabela> projects
17:33:07 <isabela> and document there
17:33:31 <mrphs> yes, wiki works too :)
17:33:51 <scouttle> I think I added a brief bullet with a link to the creative brief in the Projects section
17:34:07 <isabela> yes
17:34:18 <scouttle> do we want to create a wiki page that we can link to there, and describe the process in more detail as it goes along on that wiki page?
17:34:30 <isabela> it links to that pad
17:34:39 <isabela> yes
17:34:51 <isabela> we should have a link there to a wiki page where the project is documented
17:34:52 <PhilipL> to me it lloks more like a project for the ux team page than a wiki page. if we talk about the process and not the result
17:34:56 <isabela> like linda did for her project
17:35:24 <isabela> you see the first link there -> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/TorLauncherUX2016
17:36:23 <mrphs> you can also create sub-pages for ux team
17:36:32 <scouttle> yes, that's what I meant
17:36:35 <scouttle> a subpage within UX team
17:36:40 <scouttle> sorry if that wasn't clear
17:36:43 <mrphs> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/design_guideline
17:37:17 <mrphs> or whatever you want to name it :)
17:37:26 <scouttle> maybe /style_guide
17:37:55 <mrphs> sounds good. all you have to do is to go the url you wish to have, and then click on 'create this page' button
17:38:20 <mrphs> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/style_guide
17:38:35 <n8fr8> oh somehow, I had this at 11am still.
17:38:38 * n8fr8 reading backlog!
17:38:38 <mrphs> oh and of course, you need to be logged in
17:39:24 <PhilipL> so the wiki is more for documentation of processes and team stuff and less for results?
17:40:12 <mrphs> can haz both
17:40:14 <scouttle> I think that an overview of the process is one of the results, in a sense
17:40:24 <scouttle> not many open-source projects work with designers
17:40:29 <mrphs> indeed
17:40:33 <scouttle> or, at least, not that I know of
17:40:46 <scouttle> so, documenting the process seems like a good thing to do
17:41:01 <scouttle> I think the goal is less to do day-to-day "this is what's left to be done and who's doing what" documentation
17:41:20 <scouttle> but do "this was step one, and step two, and some challenges and resolutions we had there, and step three, and..."
17:41:27 <mrphs> yes
17:41:44 <PhilipL> i understand
17:42:11 <mrphs> releasing software is not much different than working on graphics. you sort out the tasks, and responsiblities, and document the process. and then release the final product.
17:42:44 <PhilipL> yes. that process sounds familiar
17:42:55 <mrphs> there's also a lot of failures in code, i mean our task management system is called 'bug tracker'. it should speak for itself :)
17:43:16 <scouttle> ok
17:43:27 <scouttle> so, ame_e and I will work to document the process we've done so far
17:43:32 <scouttle> in the wiki page
17:43:42 <isabela> great
17:43:45 <scouttle> and move forward with getting contracts and final OTF approval so designers can start work
17:43:54 <scouttle> any other questions/discussion on the style guide project at this time?
17:44:09 <mrphs> scouttle: ame_e: pls let me know if you need any help
17:44:33 <scouttle> definitely reviewing the process documentation once it's up for clarity
17:44:39 <PhilipL> no further questions. i guess, i’ll hear from you
17:44:40 <mrphs> (from setting up the wiki page to whatever else that might be needed)
17:45:09 <mrphs> this is a great step forward
17:45:11 <PhilipL> make sure to let the mailing list know, once you set up the wiki page with some content
17:45:25 <scouttle> will do
17:45:47 <PhilipL> thanks for starting with the wiki page
17:47:11 <mrphs> alright
17:47:30 <PhilipL> no other stuff on the agenda for today?
17:47:37 <ame_e> Not fro me
17:47:46 <mrphs> so on another note, I made an small list of all the things we need to work on (long term) to find ux issues of.
17:47:47 <sajolida> not for me neither
17:47:51 <mrphs> which i'm going to add to the wiki page
17:48:25 <mrphs> let's keep this ball rolling.
17:48:41 <PhilipL> that’s good. will it be in the projects list under current?
17:48:55 <mrphs> I need to find a better spot for it
17:48:59 <mrphs> maybe roadmap
17:49:04 <PhilipL> ok
17:49:08 <mrphs> but it will be on the same page and will send an email about it
17:49:14 <mrphs> (after adding it)
17:49:57 <mrphs> oh another thing i've been meaning to mention before we go, is PT infographic:
17:50:28 <mrphs> https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-project/2016-June/000420.html
17:50:35 <mrphs> please read the email and replies
17:50:42 <mrphs> and feel free to chime in
17:50:57 <mrphs> (if that interests you)
17:51:54 <scouttle> cool!
17:51:57 <PhilipL> thanks. I’ll have a look later.
17:52:06 <ame_e> thanks
17:52:22 <PhilipL> i guess i’ll leave then. see you
17:52:23 <scouttle> I somehow didn't see that come through
17:52:25 <mrphs> anyone wants to share anything else before we call it?
17:52:45 <sajolida> i'm especially interested in the "one-line summary and significance of each" (cf. discussion we had in Valencia about the naming of PT)
17:53:07 <scouttle> one thing on the PT graphic: I encourage you to think about who the audience is for it, and what one thing you want them to walk away with knowing that they didn't know
17:53:42 <isabela> :)
17:53:42 <scouttle> I feel like educating both end users and bridge operators is a very broad goal
17:53:45 <isabela> scouttle: that was my comment too
17:54:19 <mrphs> yes, as isabela mentioned it in her response.
17:54:20 <scouttle> infographics are most effective when they're very targeted in what they're trying to convey
17:54:23 <mrphs> please see the emails after that
17:54:28 <scouttle> whoops, sorry
17:54:45 <scouttle> I didn't see this on the UX list. Did I miss it?
17:54:56 <mrphs> no it was sent to tor-project list
17:55:11 <scouttle> ah, I am not on that one.
17:55:22 <mrphs> my bad. I should have sent a note to ux list
17:55:39 <isabela> mrphs: maybe fwd that to ux list?
17:55:45 <mrphs> maybe sometimes we *should* do cross posting
17:55:54 <isabela> hehehe
17:56:00 <mrphs> I will
17:56:35 <mrphs> okay. thanks everyone for patricipating.
17:56:43 <scouttle> thanks for moderating, mrphs!
17:56:51 <mrphs> looking forward to much awesomeness around tor with shiny new things
17:56:55 <scouttle> :D
17:56:56 <isabela> o/
17:56:58 <isabela> thanks ppl
17:57:05 <sajolida> ciao
17:57:06 <mrphs> #endmeeting