15:09:20 <mrphs> #startmeeting
15:09:20 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Jul 29 15:09:20 2016 UTC.  The chair is mrphs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:09:20 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:09:35 <mrphs> seems like we have a full house
15:09:46 <mrphs> sorry for the delay. let's get started :)
15:10:11 <mrphs> karsten: thank you! btw :)
15:10:30 <karsten> np
15:10:44 <isabela> o/
15:11:30 <PhilipL> I did a bit more exploration on the color finding. This purple green color code is really difficult. Also thought of focusing on one single color, because for now we have two strong colors. The green as secondary color does not work well as text color when too joyful. There are more thoughts I could find and write down. I just hope we’ll find a satisfying temporary version.
15:12:22 <scouttle> It is a hard problem.
15:12:51 <mrphs> as arma would say, since when are we in business of solving easy problems ;)
15:13:22 <scouttle> Since we want to move the styleguide forward, I am inclined to stick with the colors from Elio's original draft, which reflect current practice
15:13:26 <PhilipL> The contrast between our purple and green looks just boring when considered as grayscale version. but too much contrast makes the purple too mute and the green too less practicable
15:13:45 <mrphs> so what are the blockers to go with version A?
15:13:54 <mrphs> s/version/option
15:13:55 <scouttle> But then have the community work on finding colors that are more functional
15:14:07 <isabela> aha
15:14:16 <ElioQoshi1> Right
15:14:18 <PhilipL> Yes, that should be our way
15:14:29 <isabela> scouttle: great idea
15:14:56 <scouttle> Ok. That works for you, ElioQoshi1?
15:15:04 <mrphs> do we wanna talk about what does the path to finding those colors look like?
15:15:05 <scouttle> And ame_e?
15:15:11 <ame_e> Yes
15:15:26 <scouttle> mrphs yes, but first, if we can:
15:15:38 <scouttle> what are the other points of question before we finalize the styleguide?
15:15:39 <ElioQoshi1> d
15:15:52 <ElioQoshi1> That works for me
15:15:53 <ElioQoshi1> Makes sense
15:15:56 <PhilipL> sorry, was v2=A and v3=B?
15:16:28 <scouttle> the proposal is to stick with the colors in ElioQoshi1's first draft
15:16:43 <scouttle> which match as closely as possible the colors that have always been used
15:16:58 <ElioQoshi1> Exactly
15:17:03 <PhilipL> Ok
15:17:06 <scouttle> cool
15:17:13 <flexlibris> attention good UX people. mrphs says he will be online in a few.
15:17:21 <PhilipL> thanks
15:17:22 <scouttle> ok, thanks flexlibris!
15:17:27 <scouttle> so: fonts.
15:17:33 <isabela> ok
15:17:43 <scouttle> Any objections to the current choice?
15:18:04 <mrphs> flexlibris: that message was for 11mins ago. I'm here :) thank you!
15:18:39 <flexlibris> hahah mrphs sorry i just looked at my texts
15:18:58 <mrphs> I personally liked Lato. we used it in our slides for HOPE and it looked good
15:19:19 <scouttle> PhilipL, you can concerns with it, yes?
15:20:07 <PhilipL> sry it seems I am really slow in writing
15:20:50 <PhilipL> This process goes too fast. I think it is still too early to choose the font.
15:20:51 <scouttle> no worries. (And I meant "you had concerns", of course.)
15:20:59 <ElioQoshi1> I have a reason to use Source Sans Pro
15:21:03 <PhilipL> I explained in a mail why I don’t think that Lato is the right choice.
15:21:09 <ElioQoshi1> It offers 1942 glyphs
15:21:16 <ElioQoshi1> and I agree with PhilipL
15:21:19 <PhilipL> mybe murphs can explain what "looks good" means
15:21:34 <PhilipL> why does it fit to Tor?
15:22:19 <scouttle> It sounds like PhilipL and ElioQoshi1 are in agreement that Lato was too much too fast, and that a change that big should be undertaken with a bit more thought and deliberation
15:22:34 <PhilipL> And about Source Sans: It was just a proposal and a contribution to the discussion. Now in application I am not sure if it does not look to old fashioned?
15:23:06 <PhilipL> It is a good and well-designed typeface. But we need to think about this a bit.
15:23:54 <mrphs> PhilipL: well it looked modern enough and unlike helvetica it's free. that's why i liked it. if you and ElioQoshi1 wanna go with Source Sans I dont have a problem with it :)
15:23:59 <PhilipL> Arial is pretty ugly, sure. But for a first draft we could decide for Arial, as it like a blank paper that we can build on later
15:24:03 <mrphs> you two know way better about fonts than I do
15:24:06 <scouttle> But Arial isn't open.
15:24:23 <scouttle> And I think it's important for Tor to standardize on an open font.
15:24:30 <mrphs> scouttle: +1
15:24:44 <PhilipL> I understand.
15:24:49 <scouttle> Which, of course, limits things somewhat!
15:25:00 <scouttle> But, creative constraints are good, too. :)
15:25:12 <isabela> there is liberation sans which is an alternative for helvetica
15:25:23 <ElioQoshi1> I would hate to have my name associated with something which uses a proprietary font
15:25:26 <PhilipL> Phew, if Liberation Sans just didn’t look even worse than Arial …
15:25:31 <isabela> hehehe
15:25:57 <ElioQoshi1> Mozilla uses Fira Sans, which I love But it screams Mozilla
15:26:11 <ElioQoshi1> And we shouldn't copy Mozilla like that I suppose
15:26:12 <scouttle> Yes. I think it's good to not follow them too closely.
15:26:33 <scouttle> Part of the point of the style guide is for Tor to stand up its own identity.
15:26:50 <scouttle> It will take a while for that identity to really be fleshed out, but we shouldn't start by putting ourselves in Mozilla's shadow.
15:26:56 <ElioQoshi1> Exactly
15:27:03 <isabela> true
15:27:12 <scouttle> So, the current draft from ElioQoshi uses Source Sans, but your current concern is that it looks too old-fashioned, PhilipL?
15:27:15 <PhilipL> When I talk about Arial as a blank paper I mean it more like in use as a websafe font. It is the standard font for many plain text visualizations. … in a lot of OS … that you might not like :)
15:27:37 <PhilipL> ok. no Fira Sans. I agree
15:27:46 <scouttle> Yes. So is there an open font that more closely matches the character of Arial?
15:28:18 <PhilipL> It is Liberation Sans, Iguess. Elio, any other ideas?
15:28:29 <ElioQoshi1> Liberation is used by Red Hat, right?
15:28:32 <scouttle> For what it's worth, Source Sans doesn't look too old fashioned to me.
15:29:00 <scouttle> It looks a little academic, maybe. But Tor's history as a research project is long and well-established.
15:29:11 <PhilipL> I guess it is just my (cultural) perception.
15:29:30 <ame_e> Do we plan to pick a font during this meeting?
15:29:33 <scouttle> See slide 4 of the current draft for reference on what it looks like as a paragraph: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/62482708/Tor%20Styleguide%20Draft%20v3.pdf
15:29:41 <PhilipL> Maybe that’s it! It is a bit bureaucratic?
15:29:47 <ame_e> I have a bunch of tabs open and am trying to flip between them.
15:29:59 <isabela> scouttle: that is source sans?
15:30:12 <scouttle> as I understand it, yes – right ElioQoshi1?
15:30:21 <PhilipL> It should be. It is not converted into paths, but I guess it is embedded in the PDF
15:30:53 <scouttle> I don't know if I'd say bureaucratic. The lowercase "L"s look kind of flip and fun.
15:31:03 <isabela> hehe
15:31:08 <PhilipL> It looks great in large text amounts, but with too less character in display (=headline) sizes
15:31:26 <ElioQoshi1> Yes it is scouttle
15:32:19 <ElioQoshi1> I think it's rather a good mix
15:32:35 <isabela> https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/source-sans-pro
15:32:36 <PhilipL> Maybe it is a good choice for now. And it is a good typedesign, so it might be that we get used to it and will like it even more :)
15:32:41 <isabela> has more examples of it in use
15:33:20 <scouttle> I think it's probably better to go with something that's well-designed and maybe a tiny bit off in character than to go with something that feels a bit more neutral in character but doesn't work as well overall
15:33:44 <scouttle> And, I agree with PhilipL's point about it growing on us with time. :)
15:33:46 <PhilipL> You are right.
15:33:57 <scouttle> Ok. Any objections to proceeding with Source Sans, then?
15:34:01 <PhilipL> Do slides nowerdays embed fonts?
15:34:37 <ElioQoshi1> I think its the best otion
15:34:40 <PhilipL> meaning powerpoint files and odp files
15:34:45 <scouttle> PhilipL I've seen some conference instructions request that fonts be embedded, yes.
15:35:12 <PhilipL> cool
15:35:25 <scouttle> So, if there are no objections to moving forward with Source Sans, are there any other points of discussion on the styleguide contents as they stand?
15:35:43 * mrphs takes a final look at the slides
15:35:49 <scouttle> Or should ElioQoshi1 move into the final phase of packaging it up with some instructional text, etc?
15:36:31 <mrphs> I think we're good.
15:36:48 <PhilipL> I am fine with it. But maybe I can have a final look at it before we publish it?
15:36:53 <scouttle> Yes yes.
15:36:56 <isabela> cool
15:37:02 <ElioQoshi1> Perfect
15:37:05 <PhilipL> nice
15:37:09 <scouttle> ElioQoshi1 is going to package it up with some instructional text, and share with us for review
15:37:34 <isabela> i had a request for the team too - related to documentation of the project/process and getting the buy in for tor-internal
15:37:37 <scouttle> and I imagine that we will have feedback on the text (which will explain what everything in the content is meant to represent), too
15:37:56 <mrphs> s/tor-internal/tor-project
15:38:06 <scouttle> I think ame_e just sent an email to the list about content for the process documentation
15:38:17 <isabela> ah great
15:38:23 <isabela> i will check that up and follow up in the list then
15:38:30 <ame_e> Yes I did. About 5 minutes before start of the meeting. I welcome feedback to make it better.
15:38:37 <ame_e> More accurate, what to clarify.
15:38:38 <isabela> thank you ame_e !
15:39:00 <ame_e> It's version 1, and there's more to go, but let's get the ball rolling.
15:39:08 <isabela> yep
15:39:09 <isabela> i agree
15:39:13 <scouttle> I think it is a good starting place to provide some scaffolding.
15:39:19 <scouttle> And we can add more details from there.
15:39:30 <ame_e> Yes.
15:39:42 <ElioQoshi1> Sounds good
15:39:55 <scouttle> In particular I think it would be good to identify a list of questions that we want to have the community consider going forward – e.g. colors!
15:40:06 <isabela> +1
15:40:17 <isabela> yes we should present as this is the begining not the end :)
15:40:25 <scouttle> Cool! This is very exciting.
15:40:43 <isabela> indeed
15:40:44 <ame_e> In my mind there are two related things, that need to be managed with that here's what's coming next message.
15:41:07 <ame_e> Let's think about how we can support buy in on the idea of why a styleguide is importnat.
15:41:10 <ame_e> important.
15:41:19 <PhilipL> Yes. It’s like packing our backpackers for an exciting journe
15:41:21 <PhilipL> y
15:41:22 <ame_e> And think about how to get everyone excited about that.
15:41:46 <ame_e> While also acknowledging that there are individual issues with the v1 style guide that aren't to their liking.
15:42:00 <ame_e> I definitely think it makes sense to have a list of questions for further consideration.
15:42:19 <isabela> i like the list of questions idea
15:42:26 <ame_e> But, I wonder, what are we, as a UX team, doing to manage the inevitable: I hate this, this is wrong, bad, why did you do this, this way.
15:42:57 <ame_e> That will happen to more or less extent, and it's up to us to model that we are excited about the style guide AND capacity for it to get better.
15:43:08 <isabela> i think a big part of how to manager that is to document the history of decisions
15:43:30 <isabela> like our color and font discussions to show we went to different corners and thought of different points etc
15:43:32 <ame_e> So YES YES to leaving people with questions. But we want to scaffold the responses so it isn't a lot of: but it has to be this way or else Ur Doing it Rong. kind of thing.
15:43:56 <ame_e> Sorry I don't speak hacker, that's me trying to be cute with Ur doing it Wrong.  I just mean, criticism.
15:43:57 <isabela> that is why i think the logs of this meetings should be summarized, as well as emails like PhilipL's etc
15:44:25 <ame_e> We welcome critique and dialogue, and I am SO EXCITED we're having a meeting about how beaurocratic a font we want. That's a beautiful thing. Thank you all.
15:44:38 <ElioQoshi1> So how will the stye guide look like? Afteewards? in PDF or web format?
15:44:41 <isabela> because that explains the thinking of why it is the way it is now and what are the things we are looking into solving moving forward.. also avoid ppl pushing us back to old discussoins if they can see why we decided on way or another
15:45:09 <scouttle> ElioQoshi1 I think that starting with PDF because it's easier to generate, and then perhaps adapting to HTML
15:45:10 <ame_e> Good point isabela. My notes are thin on recapping conversation here. Let's think about what to improve, what details to pull out.
15:45:20 <ElioQoshi1> Perfect
15:45:21 <scouttle> At least, that's my inclination.
15:45:54 <isabela> yes we will want webformat too
15:45:59 <PhilipL> Maybe we should not present the style guide as the big thing, but put in focus the process that is to come. With the styleguide as a basis. And for further steps we would have the list with questions and things to consider. That could make excitement about working in the UX team
15:45:59 <mrphs> ElioQoshi1: I'd say PDF AND web formant
15:46:02 <mrphs> format*
15:46:31 <mrphs> we have to put it on the website somewhere and the tinfoil-hat community doesnt like pdf for good reason
15:46:48 <ame_e> There may also be a very brief appendix or companion page that talks about how to get the font, and how to see and enter the values of a color.
15:46:54 <isabela> PhilipL: +1
15:46:55 <scouttle> mrphs I agree we want both, but can we wait and see how many hours ElioQoshi has put in before we ask him to do the formatting?
15:47:08 <mrphs> sure
15:47:23 <isabela> ame_e: yes
15:47:54 <mrphs> i can also help with transfering things into web format
15:47:54 <ElioQoshi1> Roger
15:48:05 <isabela> scouttle: btw i am located in ny from august fwd
15:48:39 <scouttle> PhilipL I love the idea of presenting the process as the main thing, and the styleguide as the first artifact
15:48:51 <scouttle> isabela that's exciting! Have a safe move. :)
15:48:58 <isabela> tx
15:49:50 <ame_e> It is exciting. I heart NY
15:49:51 <scouttle> I don't get to NYC very often. But Philly isn't that far!
15:49:58 <isabela> i know!
15:50:16 <scouttle> Ok. Those are all the things that I wanted to discuss in this styleguide mini-meeting. What other agenda items do we have?
15:50:49 <mrphs> i think we're good. just need to transform things into wiki
15:51:00 <mrphs> I'm gonna write a section about open questions
15:51:07 <mrphs> 1- colors
15:51:14 <mrphs> what are the others?
15:51:50 <ame_e> Uses? I think PhilipL has been very clear about things like greyscale sprinting that maybe everyone ehasn't considered>
15:51:51 <ame_e> ?
15:53:15 <PhilipL> I’d like to help with the questions, but I will not be available next week. If it is not urgent, I can write something the other week.
15:53:47 <PhilipL> … I mean I don’t have any time until next weeks Sunday
15:54:17 <scouttle> That's fine from where I sit
15:54:21 <PhilipL> or should we write a quick list now?
15:54:26 <mrphs> okay. but whenever you can, please feel free to edit https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/StyleGuidelines
15:54:43 <scouttle> If you have quick ideas you know you want added, you could list them now before the meeting ends
15:54:52 <scouttle> But otherwise I think whenever you get a chance should be fine
15:54:53 <mrphs> even a quick one liner note helps us to not forget about things
15:54:58 <mrphs> so we can go back and document them
15:55:01 <PhilipL> right
15:55:04 <ElioQoshi1> Guys I need to drop off
15:55:09 <isabela> an idea would also be to present this at dev meeting
15:55:11 <ElioQoshi1> Good to see this going
15:55:16 <isabela> or hold a discussion session
15:55:23 <ElioQoshi1> I will follow the mailing list for any update
15:55:25 <mrphs> isabela: oh we def are going to!
15:55:28 <PhilipL> ok thanks elio
15:55:38 <ElioQoshi1> Thanks again, looking forward!
15:55:39 <ame_e> thank you! Danke!
15:55:41 <scouttle> thanks ElioQoshi1!
15:55:44 <isabela> o/
15:55:47 <isabela> thanks ElioQoshi1
15:55:48 <mrphs> thanks everyone!
15:56:00 <mrphs> #endmeeting