18:05:01 <isabela> #startmeeting ux team meeting
18:05:01 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Sep 22 18:05:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:05:01 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:05:07 <isabela> alright!
18:05:15 <isabela> we have linda ElioQoshi1 PhilipL
18:05:26 * dcf1 paying attention
18:05:27 <ElioQoshi1> Oh, Hello Linda!
18:05:34 <isabela> oi dcf1 o/
18:05:39 <linda> ⊂(◕‿◕)づ
18:05:56 <isabela> i thought of us doing 2 things today
18:06:09 <isabela> 1. talk about feedback received so far
18:06:16 <scouttle> Hi all, sorry to be late
18:06:20 <isabela> 2. prep for the session in seattle
18:06:22 <isabela> oi scouttle !
18:06:24 <isabela> we are just starting
18:06:26 <isabela> np
18:06:52 <isabela> does that sounds good for this meeting? any other points?
18:07:07 <scouttle> SGTM
18:07:22 <linda> Is the "feedback received so far" == things that PhilipL sent to the list?
18:07:34 <ElioQoshi1> Would be great if Linda could introduce herself as well, as this is her first official meeting I think?
18:07:35 <PhilipL> sounds good. i guess my point is included in point 2. how we think about a redesign and how you will represent that in seattle
18:08:00 <isabela> k
18:08:08 <linda> ElioQoshi1: Sure!
18:09:03 <PhilipL> good idea. shall we start with linda?
18:09:07 <isabela> yes
18:09:08 <ElioQoshi1> I am still available for a few hours this week to do stuff before Seattle as well
18:09:15 <ElioQoshi1> If you want me to focus on anything
18:09:20 <ElioQoshi1> Yes, perfect
18:09:55 <linda> Hello, I'm Linda. I just signed on to be the UI/UX team lead at Tor Project. I will be responsible for leading efforts to make Tor more usable, accessible, and aesthetically pleasing.
18:10:21 <linda> I think I will do a formal introduction to the list (and maybe on a blog post). I'd also be happy to meet you guys in Seattle.
18:10:34 <scouttle> Yay, so excited to have you!
18:10:39 <isabela> :)
18:10:58 <ElioQoshi1> Yes, I need someone to give me orders!
18:11:05 <ElioQoshi1> jk, happy to have you :D
18:11:08 <PhilipL> :)
18:11:26 <ElioQoshi1> I look forward to moving faster in 2017
18:11:29 <linda> I come from a CS security background, with research experience in usable security. I've worked in BLUES (berkeley laboratory for usable and experimental security) and SCRUB (secure computing for users' benefit) labs. I'm good with user studies, some front-end hacking, and writing lengthy things.
18:11:47 <linda> :) I'm not particularly good at designing things, so I'm glad to have PhilipL and ElioQoshi1 on board to help.
18:11:59 <isabela> good on cartoons too!
18:12:24 <linda> I do love to doodle cartoons. :P But making sleek designs isn't my strong suit.
18:12:38 <linda> Okay! That's it on my end.
18:12:52 <PhilipL> Thanks!
18:13:14 <isabela> cool!
18:13:15 <Nycatelos> f
18:13:25 <Nycatelos> uhh, sorry, didn't mean to type that
18:13:38 <isabela> ok if no one has any questions we could start with item #1
18:14:03 <isabela> #topic 1. feedback received so far
18:14:22 <PhilipL> yes. the biggest thing there is the subbranding, the tiers and how app icons work
18:14:38 <isabela> I would love for us to document what was sent over email to tor-project and also the notes from berlin in the wiki
18:15:03 <PhilipL> Yes. Let's collect it there.
18:15:10 <linda> \(• ◡ •)/
18:15:16 <isabela> we should add font size too for internationalization
18:15:31 <isabela> which was one of the feedbacks
18:15:46 <ElioQoshi1> There was a comment about the font sizes being in relation with each other rather than absolute
18:15:55 <isabela> my idea was to have them in a table in the wiki with a column for 'adopted' or 'fixed'
18:16:04 <ElioQoshi1> scouttle I think? How do you think we should handle that?
18:16:11 <PhilipL> ok. that point is difficult, because it always depends on the resolution of the ned users device, but there are some regular values.
18:16:39 <ElioQoshi1> We should include that in the Styleguide as well, right?
18:16:49 <ElioQoshi1> Next version I mean
18:16:52 <PhilipL> wait. why "font size" for "internationalization"?
18:17:03 <scouttle> agree, can you elaborate isabela?
18:17:14 <scouttle> also, just realized that Ame didn't get a chance to send her Berlin notes to the list, I'll do that now.
18:17:17 <isabela> too small you cant read scripts like chinese
18:17:21 <ElioQoshi1> scouttle, she did
18:17:35 <isabela> so we should have a guidance of avoiding too small
18:17:47 <ElioQoshi1> Ah, right
18:17:48 <scouttle> I think she just sent to the three of us no?
18:17:52 <PhilipL> ah, ok.
18:18:02 <ElioQoshi1> Source Sans Pro should be able to cater to most languages
18:18:07 <PhilipL> the four of us, i think
18:18:14 <isabela> yes, not font type but the size
18:18:42 <ElioQoshi1> Yes of course
18:18:58 <isabela> scouttle: please fwd to the list but i think we should organize them in a table in the wiki to make sure we are keeping track of them and also our decisions about them
18:19:02 <PhilipL> but we'd need to define the other fonts, because they might appear smaller or beigger depending on the font
18:19:19 <scouttle> isabela agreed, absolutely
18:19:26 <PhilipL> with which chinese font do we work for now?
18:19:30 <ElioQoshi1> I don't have much experience with i18n but with some assistance here it should be easy
18:19:45 <PhilipL> are there any examples? we should check the sizes we use so far
18:19:52 <isabela> PhilipL: the font should be fine for chinese scripts or LTR scripts
18:19:58 <linda> I'm new. Is the goal to have a consistent size across all languages without penalizing languages that rely on fine detail?
18:20:20 <linda> And, in parallel, is it a goal to have one font across everything? Or a set of fonts?
18:20:27 <isabela> we should recommend a minimal size so when we translate the string people can still read it
18:20:35 <ElioQoshi1> Source Sans Pro supports these languages:
18:20:36 <ElioQoshi1> Catalan Czech German Greek English Spanish French Hungarian Italian Maltese Dutch Polish Portuguese Russian Slovenian Swedish Turkish Vietnamese
18:20:43 <scouttle> I think the goal would probably be 1) to make the experiences work well in each language, and 2) not break the UIs into which the localized strings are being inserted
18:21:00 <isabela> ok
18:21:14 <linda> scouttle: Those sound like good goals. Thanks.
18:21:19 <PhilipL> it's not about not penalizing. the font's should be readable in all languages and maybe if they share the same page or medium they should look optically equal
18:21:20 <ElioQoshi1> Pretty impossible to have a font for all scripts
18:21:29 <ElioQoshi1> I think even Ubuntu does not support chinese
18:21:32 <isabela> so we do have a list of lang that we want to make sure we always support
18:21:37 <linda> PhilipL:  that's reasonable.
18:21:40 <scouttle> I don't know what the conventions are around font size in different languages. I suspect that eg asian characters are a bit larger on the screen because they're more complex – do you know, isabela?
18:21:42 <linda> ElioQoshi1: I didn't know this.
18:21:43 <isabela> 11 without counting english 12 with english
18:22:09 <isabela> scouttle: yes asian scripts and also some ltr scripts too
18:22:19 <ElioQoshi1> Yeah, it's a HUGE amount of work to create a standard font for the whole world
18:22:39 <PhilipL> if we wanted one font for all languages there'd be only one or two possible fonts. but we already defined source sans. so, now we need to find fonts that have the same concept/look
18:22:46 <scouttle> but I don't know how e.g. a 12pt Chinese font compares to a 12pt latin font. Maybe they're designed to both look equally readable, but are in fact different sizes.
18:22:51 <dcf1> You can ask the TBB devs what fonts they ship; they also had the problem of covering the majority of scripts with a small set of fonts.
18:23:20 <isabela> ok
18:23:36 <PhilipL> what's TBB?
18:23:39 <isabela> we should put this on the list to look and make sure we have somethign that can i18n
18:23:46 <isabela> tor browser team
18:23:54 <dcf1> IIRC the basis for the TBB set is the Noto fonts: https://www.google.com/get/noto/
18:24:27 <ElioQoshi1> Noto is perfect
18:24:30 <ElioQoshi1> I wouldn't touch it
18:24:55 <ElioQoshi1> So my proposal would be Source Sans Pro and Noto as a fallback for all other not supported languages
18:24:58 <isabela> i think we wont be able to figure out a solution for every feedback on this meeting but we should organize them in the wiki and use the seattle meeting to figure our solutions
18:25:16 <isabela> *figure out
18:25:48 <dcf1> PhilipL: sorry, TBB=Tor Browser Bundle, an old name for Tor Browser. Saying "TBB" is just a bad old habit.
18:25:53 <isabela> does that makes sense? we should organize all the feedback prior to the meeting in the wiki so we can also make sure of not missing anything
18:26:20 <ElioQoshi1> Sure
18:26:41 <scouttle> isabela, agree, I think that stepping back and identifying feedback/issues now is good
18:26:43 <PhilipL> yes. so, for now what should we define regarding point 1?
18:27:01 <ElioQoshi1> Source Sans Pro and Noto as a fallback for all other not supported languages?
18:27:13 <isabela> i am proposing we do a table in the wiki listing the feedback
18:27:28 <isabela> we can have columns for resolutions so we can keep track of it
18:27:31 <ElioQoshi1> It's not as we have many alternatives
18:27:39 <PhilipL> Yes.
18:27:40 <ElioQoshi1> Noto is I think the only open font which supports all languages
18:27:55 <PhilipL> dejavu sans
18:28:07 <ElioQoshi1> There are some proprietary ones, but that would defeat the purpose designing for Tor
18:28:12 <isabela> ok so we can have the font issue there too :)
18:28:17 <ElioQoshi1> As I said, I'd never touch a proprietary font while working on Tor
18:28:18 <PhilipL> yes. :)
18:28:26 <ElioQoshi1> It's like Coke, I quit drinking it
18:28:30 <ElioQoshi1> Same with proprietary fonts
18:28:37 <isabela> sorry i just think we should use this time to prep ourselves for the dev meeting like organizing the feedback and the agenda session
18:28:40 <dcf1> Here's the Tor Browser fonts, for the record: https://gitweb.torproject.org/builders/tor-browser-bundle.git/tree/gitian/descriptors/linux/gitian-bundle.yml?id=ae5f3f9f9bb12a0e07d268262c6e5b8e3b0baf88#n125
18:28:47 <scouttle> yes
18:28:48 <ElioQoshi1> isabela, right
18:28:55 <linda> isabela: +1 ◉_◉
18:28:55 <scouttle> let's stop talking specific solutions
18:28:55 <PhilipL> who will write that list? should I do it?
18:29:16 <ElioQoshi1> Shall we go to the next point?
18:29:34 <linda> Yeah~ ~(˘▾˘~)
18:29:38 <isabela> PhilipL: if you want to start it that would be great
18:29:43 <isabela> i can help over time too
18:29:45 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/UxTeam/StyleGuidelines
18:29:51 <isabela> this is the wiki page for this project
18:29:58 <isabela> we can start in the bottom
18:30:15 <PhilipL> ok. i'll do that and write a mail so you can start adding stuff
18:30:22 <isabela> awesome!
18:30:24 <PhilipL> make a new list below?
18:30:45 <isabela> yes, can have the header 'feedback collected'
18:30:47 <isabela> or something
18:31:00 <PhilipL> ok
18:31:12 <isabela> cool!
18:31:30 <ElioQoshi1> Next point?
18:31:36 <ElioQoshi1> App Icons /Subbrands
18:31:39 <isabela> #topic 2 organize oour dev meeting sessions
18:32:07 <isabela> ElioQoshi1: we should add that to the list PhilipL is making
18:32:17 <scouttle> to clarify:
18:32:32 <scouttle> your thought was not to enumerate the feedback here, but to put it directly on the wiki, isabela?
18:32:45 <scouttle> drawn from the mailing list, ame's notes, and any further observations?
18:32:59 <isabela> yes
18:33:04 <PhilipL> that's how i understood it. and in seattle you'll discuss solutions
18:33:09 <isabela> yes
18:33:44 <PhilipL> is there anything urgent of that feedback we should clarify now, scouttle?
18:34:02 <ElioQoshi1> I don't think we have anything urgent which can't wait for next week
18:34:25 <scouttle> SGTM, just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page :)
18:34:37 <PhilipL> good :)
18:34:41 <isabela> ok
18:34:58 <isabela> so the session in seattle is more about us talking with the rest of the community
18:35:05 <linda> ٩(◕ヮ◕)۶
18:35:12 <isabela> explaining the project, figuring out the tiers and how to execute the adoption and what is next
18:35:17 <isabela> the rebranding discussion etc
18:35:30 <isabela> we should try to have  a team specific meeting too
18:35:43 <isabela> but just want to make sure the session is more about a discussion with people who are not necessary in this team :)
18:35:46 <ElioQoshi1> Yes please, at least one
18:35:54 <isabela> :)
18:35:56 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/sGP_aWw2OJWaxN3uQKNU457XJZhN9qWqHAeT8YjhCCT
18:35:59 <ElioQoshi1> As I said, I'm all yours during Seattle
18:36:14 <isabela> we can use this pad for creating an agenda or some format for how that session should go
18:36:34 <isabela> how was it done in berlin?
18:36:36 <ElioQoshi1> I'd find it cool if we can organize a small gallery for other people to walk in and see printed versions of the styleguide
18:36:42 <ElioQoshi1> And comment with post-its on them
18:36:47 <ElioQoshi1> We collect them afterwards
18:37:00 <ElioQoshi1> And note the feedback written on them
18:37:09 <isabela> but we should have someone there to answer questions too
18:37:24 <linda> I think an introduction before the post-it feedback session would be very helpful.
18:37:27 <ElioQoshi1> Yes, I'd be there, offering cookies and bad jokes to people walking in
18:37:38 <linda> But we need to agree on what the introduction is. (i.e. the purpose and who it affects)
18:37:43 <linda> ElioQoshi1: a valuable service.
18:37:43 <scouttle> isabela / linda does tor have an account with a local printer or anything that might be able to do larger-format prints of the guide?
18:37:54 <isabela> i can ask
18:38:05 <ElioQoshi1> If not, I can go somewhere nearby and print them out locally
18:38:19 <scouttle> ideal would be poster-size, but even just legal size would be better than normal
18:38:35 <ElioQoshi1> Well, A3 at least
18:38:38 <ElioQoshi1> A2 ideally
18:38:51 <ElioQoshi1> A1 when I think about it
18:38:52 <scouttle> remember this is America, where we don't think in A numbers :)
18:39:02 <isabela> ok
18:39:07 <ElioQoshi1> Ah, yeah Muricah
18:39:10 <isabela> i just checked and if you send me files i can print
18:39:29 <ElioQoshi1> What's the max size you can print out isa?
18:39:49 <isabela> i will go to a printer shop something that is similar to kinkos
18:40:08 <ElioQoshi1> Okidoki
18:40:27 <ElioQoshi1> I will be working on the posters tomorrow
18:40:28 <isabela> 11x17 is something easier for me
18:40:35 <ElioQoshi1> inches?
18:41:04 <isabela> yes
18:41:11 <ElioQoshi1> Damn imperial empire
18:41:14 <isabela> is taht a good size?
18:41:15 <isabela> lol
18:41:18 <ElioQoshi1> Right, I will keep that in mind
18:41:32 <dcf1> 11x17 is roughly A3 size.
18:41:47 <ElioQoshi1> That's a bit small when I think about it
18:41:54 <ElioQoshi1> Can we do 2x as big isabela?
18:42:01 <ElioQoshi1> These would stay up the whole week ideally
18:42:25 <isabela> hmm i dont know
18:42:33 <isabela> maybe send me both sizes and i try?
18:42:40 <isabela> is that ok?
18:43:11 <scouttle> larger than that you will need essentially poster printing
18:43:42 <ElioQoshi1> When we did this with Mozilla in London we used A1
18:43:45 <scouttle> which IMHO would be worth it, but is logistically a little more challenging
18:43:47 <ElioQoshi1> basically 4x as big
18:43:53 <ElioQoshi1> But that shouldn't be a standard
18:44:19 <isabela> is like a kinkus thing
18:44:30 <isabela> so send me 11x17 and the big one
18:44:33 <linda> *kinko's (a print shop)
18:44:52 <ElioQoshi1> Okay
18:44:55 <isabela> and i see what they can do
18:45:11 <isabela> re agenda for the session - i think linda suggestions is good, we should have an introduction
18:45:28 <isabela> this will be a breakout session during gunner days
18:45:33 <linda> (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞
18:45:36 <ElioQoshi1> 3 posters?
18:45:43 <ElioQoshi1> One for every styleguide page?
18:46:04 <linda> ◉_◉
18:46:38 <scouttle> I think so, yeah
18:46:50 <isabela> yes
18:46:55 <scouttle> given how Gunner sessions work, we should plan to have multiple ones
18:47:03 <scouttle> because not everyone who wants to come to the first one will be able to
18:47:20 <scouttle> the way I've done it at other sessions is pitch the same thing over and over until no more people show up
18:47:31 <scouttle> I think at the OTF summit we did like four UX sessions before they petered out
18:47:35 <linda> lol
18:47:42 <isabela> if does not fit in the agenda of gunner days to have multiple ones we can have other 'office hours' for the hacking days
18:47:49 <scouttle> agreed
18:47:58 <ElioQoshi1> Perfect
18:48:01 <scouttle> heads-up that I leave on Thursday morning, though, and I think the hacking days are after?
18:48:14 <isabela> yes
18:48:17 <scouttle> not saying I have to be there, of course, just want to be clear
18:48:24 <scouttle> I think you all could handle it without me just fine
18:48:25 <scouttle> :D
18:48:34 <ElioQoshi1> I leave on Sunday
18:48:37 <isabela> so, gunner sessions is like 30min or something
18:48:42 <ElioQoshi1> So I will be still around
18:48:47 <ElioQoshi1> (2nd October)
18:48:49 <isabela> we should have someone do a 5min intro and then what?
18:49:03 <PhilipL> back again
18:49:08 <isabela> o/
18:49:32 <scouttle> I think open it up for questions
18:49:55 <scouttle> if the intro includes info on what the style guide is and what we're proposing in terms of tiers
18:50:30 <ElioQoshi1> Questions are definitely needed
18:50:35 <ElioQoshi1> I noticed it in the Berlin meetup
18:50:36 <scouttle> alternatively, I think lay out a couple broad goals – e.g., "build consensus around adoption and tiers"
18:50:38 <isabela> PhilipL:  https://storm.torproject.org/shared/sGP_aWw2OJWaxN3uQKNU457XJZhN9qWqHAeT8YjhCCT
18:50:47 <isabela> i am adding notes here for the session format
18:50:54 <ElioQoshi1> People were worried about a few points and Ame and me cleared them up
18:51:06 <scouttle> I don't think that it makes sense to structure the conversation too heavily because the format is designed for more free-form conversation
18:51:27 <scouttle> I think it might be good if the intro covered the feedback we've already received
18:51:40 <scouttle> and one of the goals might be to elaborate on that feedback
18:52:00 <scouttle> that way we don't have everyone just repeatedly saying the same things, but we can hopefully have a meaningful discussion on how to resolve them
18:52:30 <PhilipL> good point
18:52:42 <ElioQoshi1> Can we please have a single etherpad for the UX Team during Seattle?
18:52:49 <ElioQoshi1> So we can use that as a reference for the stuff we do?
18:52:54 <isabela> i am proposing we have a paper in the wall with some draft of what the tiers can be and people can edit there too?
18:53:01 <ElioQoshi1> And divide it into sections for separate meetings.
18:53:12 <isabela> ElioQoshi1: yes we can
18:53:18 <ElioQoshi1> That sounds good
18:54:07 <isabela> who can be the main facilitator of that session?
18:55:21 <scouttle> I'm willing to be, but far from attached to being so
18:55:39 <scouttle> if I facilitate, it might allow ElioQoshi1 to do more detailed talking and listening
18:55:54 <scouttle> and also help Linda spend time getting the lay of the land
18:56:10 <linda> (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ ✧ﾟ･: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)
18:56:10 <isabela> yes facilitate is just to help things flow
18:56:17 <ElioQoshi1> Talking? Yay, my favorite thing
18:56:21 <isabela> hehehe
18:56:30 <scouttle> ok, I am happy to facilitate then
18:56:41 <PhilipL> :) yey
18:56:42 <scouttle> I have a loud voice, too, which is always helpful for herding people to the right place :)
18:56:47 <isabela> i listed the points that scouttle mentioned that we should not forget to have on our introduction in the pad
18:56:47 <ElioQoshi1> Can we also have a session where Linda will teach us emoji ascii art?
18:56:55 <isabela> scouttle: hahaha
18:57:00 <ElioQoshi1> I need to get better at that
18:57:01 <ElioQoshi1> haha
18:57:04 * dcf1 fears the coming linda vs. isis emoticon battle
18:57:12 <isabela> hehehehehe
18:57:26 <linda> ಠ_ಠ
18:57:31 <PhilipL> :D
18:57:34 <linda> ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ
18:57:37 <isabela> lol
18:58:00 <isabela> cool!
18:58:03 <isabela> people do we have a plan?
18:58:08 <scouttle> it sounds like it to me
18:58:11 <ElioQoshi1> Hey!
18:58:14 <isabela> i think we do somehow
18:58:15 <isabela> :)
18:58:17 <ElioQoshi1> will we have drinks in the evening?
18:58:24 <isabela> yes!
18:58:28 <ElioQoshi1> We cant just do work , right
18:58:34 <ElioQoshi1> Okidoki, now we have a plan
18:58:40 <isabela> ElioQoshi1: no fun allowed!
18:58:42 <isabela> :P
18:58:50 <scouttle> heehee
18:58:53 <linda> °ロ°
18:58:55 <PhilipL> this is serious business!
18:58:59 <ElioQoshi1> I will cut onions and cry then
18:59:02 <ElioQoshi1> Right Right
18:59:03 <isabela> lol
18:59:08 <isabela> ai ai ai :D
18:59:17 <isabela> alright i will end the bot then
18:59:21 <Sebastian> Don't hurt the onions
18:59:24 <isabela> i am very excited this will take place!
18:59:25 <linda> (~˘▾˘)~
18:59:36 <isabela> ElioQoshi1: send me the stuff and i will print them!
18:59:50 <isabela> #endmeeting